UK UK - Serial killer preying on elderly couples, could be on the loose since mid-1990's

[Taskforce88]

I see a person of interest was mentioned by the coroner

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

The one link I can see with all these cases, is that all had some form of regular contact with a medical establishment, such a GP surgery or hospital, through their various minor and major illnesses and conditions:

BA - 'stomach bug & vomiting'

DW - had 'water problems', seen doctor as worried about prostate

AW - arthritis and on meds for back problems

MH - Parkinson's

VH - arthritis

KM - diabetes, had strokes and prostate cancer

EM - vascular dementia

SW - acute mental health problems, eyesight problems

 

[dotr]

May 28 2022

The police weren’t looking for a serial killer. But suddenly, I was

Did multiple loving marriages in the North West really end in murder-suicide?

manchestermill.co.uk

''This weekend’s story is by David Collins, the Northern Editor of the Sunday Times, a long-time Mill subscriber and the author of a thrilling new book, The Hunt For The Silver Killer. Just a quick warning, this piece contains descriptions of graphic violence and suicide.''

''The call was from a source in possession of a confidential report by Stephanie Davies, the senior coroner’s officer for Cheshire Police. Davies was a high-flyer. She had been given two commendations by the chief constable and held a string of qualifications in death investigations, crime scenes and forensic science. She led a team of thirteen civilian staff investigating sudden and unexpected deaths in the county of Cheshire.

Her 179-page review focused on two murder-suicides in Wilmslow, Cheshire, which took place in 1996 and 1999, just a few streets apart from one another.''


''Both cases involved elderly couples with no history of domestic violence, health problems, financial worries or serious family issues at the time of their deaths. There was no motive for either husband, nor a shred of evidence that had ever existed to suggest why they might have become murderers overnight. They lived in large houses in one of the wealthiest areas outside London: a town where footballers and soap stars rub shoulders with businessmen and bankers, and violent crime is a rarity.

I read the Davies Review in one sitting. The graphic violence of the crimes was disturbing. Photographs of married couples lying side by side in twisted, bloodied bedsheets. The women, in particular, had been the focus of excessive violence: bludgeoned and stabbed, wounds far in excess of what was required to kill.''

 

[Whitehall 1212]

It has been said, in the case of the Ainsworths who were in favour of euthanasia, that it was an over-violent end if that was what happened.

It made me think of this case that has been at court this week. Here the wife was terminally ill, but surely cutting her throat was an extreme end to choose?

Husband shared last drink with his terminally-ill wife in their garden

Graham Mansfield, 73, walked free from court on Thursday after being convicted of the manslaughter of his 71-year-old wife Dyanne.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I looked at the case detail again for this yesterday, for the very same reason. I recall that he said it was a technique that was used by the military that he had either read up on or seen in films I'm not sure copying films is ever going to work out well.....e.g. When Harry Met Sally!

Yes it is very quick, the rapid exsanguination will soon render the victim unconscious. However, it is very unpleasant to witness and very messy. I too was somewhat shocked by the 'choice'.....I can thing of far less dramatic ways.

I looked at GM's case again purely because I thought.....mmmm.......unusual method. I have no suspicions.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

The one link I can see with all these cases, is that all had some form of regular contact with a medical establishment, such a GP surgery or hospital, through their various minor and major illnesses and conditions:

BA - 'stomach bug & vomiting'

DW - had 'water problems', seen doctor as worried about prostate

AW - arthritis and on meds for back problems

MH - Parkinson's

VH - arthritis

KM - diabetes, had strokes and prostate cancer

EM - vascular dementia

SW - acute mental health problems, eyesight problems

I don't feel that such conditions would be unusual in a significant cross section of our elderly, say 70+.

MOO

 

[Whitehall 1212]

'The call was from a source in possession of a confidential report by Stephanie Davies, the senior coroner’s officer for Cheshire Police. Davies was a high-flyer. She had been given two commendations by the chief constable and held a string of qualifications in death investigations, crime scenes and forensic science. She led a team of thirteen civilian staff investigating sudden and unexpected deaths in the county of Cheshire.

Cheshire Police were far less generous in their assessment of Ms Davies seniority, qualifications, commendations and experience!

She sounds like a tough cookie who will not be subdued when she believes something is not right. This is when I start to question motives.....genuine misconduct or a means to silence the antagonist.

My gut feeling is that Ms Davies may ultimately win the day and the police will be back-pedalling faster than than a hamster on steroids.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

I don't feel that such conditions would be unusual in a significant cross section of our elderly, say 70+.

MOO

No, probably not. But what are the statistics for dying by murder-suicide?

I am not saying there is/was another Dr Shipman out there, but I would like to know if there was anyone who worked or had connections to Kenmore who then moved to work at a hospital that one or more of the others attended. Also, whether any of the others may have used the same hospital.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

I looked at the case detail again for this yesterday, for the very same reason. I recall that he said it was a technique that was used by the military that he had either read up on or seen in films I'm not sure copying films is ever going to work out well.....e.g. When Harry Met Sally!

Yes it is very quick, the rapid exsanguination will soon render the victim unconscious. However, it is very unpleasant to witness and very messy. I too was somewhat shocked by the 'choice'.....I can thing of far less dramatic ways.

I looked at GM's case again purely because I thought.....mmmm.......unusual method. I have no suspicions.

I was not saying it was suspicious, just highlighting the fact that ending another's life with 'compassion' is not always the accepted way of drugs and alcohol and falling into a deep sleep, or even suffocation, as was argued in the Ainsworths case, that the method was too barbaric. Here we see a case where the method was far more gruesome.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

No, probably not. But what are the statistics for dying by murder-suicide?

I am not saying there is/was another Dr Shipman out there, but I would like to know if there was anyone who worked or had connections to Kenmore who then moved to work at a hospital that one or more of the others attended. Also, whether any of the others may have used the same hospital.

I entirely agree that the domiciliary care/clinical intervention angle needs looking at for any significant links as a initial line of enquiry.

It's worth identifying the nearest GP practice to the two Greater Manchester cases and which CCG they are covered by, to see if there is a connection there.

Then as you say, it is a case of identifying any members of staff that moved location.

However, hypothesising that it could be a care worker. I wonder how many of these elderly couples had key safes on an external wall, that enabled access by carers or possibly AN Other. Just a line of enquiry.

Could a previous carer or AN Other who knew the code to the key safe, wait until a time, late evening/early morning, when they could enter using the key and the victims would be sleeping/sleepy and they were very unlikely to be disturbed and enter/leave under cover of darkness (offences Feb and Nov by memory)?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I was not saying it was suspicious, just highlighting the fact that ending another's life with 'compassion' is not always the accepted way of drugs and alcohol and falling into a deep sleep, or even suffocation, as was argued in the Ainsworths case, that the method was too barbaric. Here we see a case where the method was far more gruesome.

Understood.....that's how I interpreted your post. I have an ultra suspicious bone so just had to check the back story to assuage my suspicious itch.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

I don’t know if the police are considering this to be linked at all (despite the title saying murder investigation the article says they are not looking for anyone else in connection to the incident) but from the fairly limited info available it seems to have a very worrying similarity to the other deaths.

This happened in Stockport (Greater Manchester and not far at all from Wilmslow) the bodies were found on Tuesday 25th August.



Murder investigation launched after elderly couple found dead

Just an update on this.

Strangulation/hanging.

Inquest opened into the deaths of couple found dead at their home in Stockport

Denis and Lynda Cooper were found dead at their home in Hazel Grove back in August.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[Deleted member 275304]

Do we have a link to the coroner's officer's report? Difficult to form an opinion without sight of it.

What I am about to say may not be popular, but I must add some counter-balance to the views expressed here.

First, I have looked at this lady's social media profile, and she does scream 'Attention Seeker'. That may be harsh of me - and I apologise to this lady if she reads this, there is certainly no malice intended on my part - but as an example, her LinkedIn profile reads more like that of a self-publicising person than a conservative professional. That is the signature of a person who is not entirely guided by objective, dispassionate forces and prompts in me concern.

Of course, none of that means she is wrong. If she is right in what she is saying, then it's terrible, but having read through people's comments in the thread, I think some on here are a little too quick to accept a counter-narrative that may only be rooted in speculation. Remember that pathological evidence is open to interpretation. One friendly word of caution: Beware of cherry-picked information!

There is mention in some media reports of a male suspect, but remember that convenient suspects are easy to find and easy to blame, yet can (and often do) turn out to be innocent. True crime cases are always full of coincidences, alignments and convergences that could take us to any number of individuals who seem like 'strong suspects'. Coincidences are not evidence.

I am left with a feeling of deep unease that a report naming a potentially innocent person has been leaked to the press and media. Who leaked it? If the leaker was this lady, then I am in two minds about her actions. On one level, her behaviour is unjust and irresponsible and I can see why the police would seek to charge her with justice offences. An important duty of the police is to uphold justice impartially, and in this case an individual against whom there may be no real evidence has had his name passed around the press and media. On the other hand, I can also see the higher public interest motivation for leaking the information. It's a classic dilemma for which there is probably no satisfactory answer. Even if the individual is innocent, that doesn't necessarily militate against the wider moral defence of public interest, which some would say should be a legal defence too.

I do accept that the police now have a vested interest in denying her theory, as any admission that she may be right potentially makes them look careless or negligent. Even in large, and supposedly impartial and professional bodies, such as the police, normal human nature takes over and people under attack become spiteful and defensive, even if it is not their own personal actions being criticised or questioned. At the same time, and in defence of the police, what looks like institutional obstinance may not be that at all. It may just be that the police have looked at her report and spoken with her, considered it all, and decided there is nothing in it that they can work with, or nothing in it at all. If so, the police are then in a dilemma. If they publicly reject her report and theory, people may interpret this as obstinance. Perhaps the police have reasoned that it is best to say little or nothing and let it all blow over and be forgotten?

 

[dotr]

Do we have a link to the coroner's officer's report? Difficult to form an opinion without sight of it.

What I am about to say may not be popular, but I must add some counter-balance to the views expressed here.

First, I have looked at this lady's social media profile, and she does scream 'Attention Seeker'. That may be harsh of me - and I apologise to this lady if she reads this, there is certainly no malice intended on my part - but as an example, her LinkedIn profile reads more like that of a self-publicising person than a conservative professional. That is the signature of a person who is not entirely guided by objective, dispassionate forces and prompts in me concern.

Of course, none of that means she is wrong. If she is right in what she is saying, then it's terrible, but having read through people's comments in the thread, I think some on here are a little too quick to accept a counter-narrative that may only be rooted in speculation. Remember that pathological evidence is open to interpretation. One friendly word of caution: Beware of cherry-picked information!

There is mention in some media reports of a male suspect, but remember that convenient suspects are easy to find and easy to blame, yet can (and often do) turn out to be innocent. True crime cases are always full of coincidences, alignments and convergences that could take us to any number of individuals who seem like 'strong suspects'. Coincidences are not evidence.

I am left with a feeling of deep unease that a report naming a potentially innocent person has been leaked to the press and media. Who leaked it? If the leaker was this lady, then I am in two minds about her actions. On one level, her behaviour is unjust and irresponsible and I can see why the police would seek to charge her with justice offences. An important duty of the police is to uphold justice impartially, and in this case an individual against whom there may be no real evidence has had his name passed around the press and media. On the other hand, I can also see the higher public interest motivation for leaking the information. It's a classic dilemma for which there is probably no satisfactory answer. Even if the individual is innocent, that doesn't necessarily militate against the wider moral defence of public interest, which some would say should be a legal defence too.

I do accept that the police now have a vested interest in denying her theory, as any admission that she may be right potentially makes them look careless or negligent. Even in large, and supposedly impartial and professional bodies, such as the police, normal human nature takes over and people under attack become spiteful and defensive, even if it is not their own personal actions being criticised or questioned. At the same time, and in defence of the police, what looks like institutional obstinance may not be that at all. It may just be that the police have looked at her report and spoken with her, considered it all, and decided there is nothing in it that they can work with, or nothing in it at all. If so, the police are then in a dilemma. If they publicly reject her report and theory, people may interpret this as obstinance. Perhaps the police have reasoned that it is best to say little or nothing and let it all blow over and be forgotten?

Counter-balance always a good thing!
Glad that some of the cases are getting a look over if for no other reason than the unusual circumstances of these gory deaths.
Maybe there is a serial killer, but one that is not human- messed up medication? something causing mental illness in the home- lead etc.? imo speculation.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Do we have a link to the coroner's officer's report? Difficult to form an opinion without sight of it.

What I am about to say may not be popular, but I must add some counter-balance to the views expressed here.

First, I have looked at this lady's social media profile, and she does scream 'Attention Seeker'. That may be harsh of me - and I apologise to this lady if she reads this, there is certainly no malice intended on my part - but as an example, her LinkedIn profile reads more like that of a self-publicising person than a conservative professional. That is the signature of a person who is not entirely guided by objective, dispassionate forces and prompts in me concern.

Of course, none of that means she is wrong. If she is right in what she is saying, then it's terrible, but having read through people's comments in the thread, I think some on here are a little too quick to accept a counter-narrative that may only be rooted in speculation. Remember that pathological evidence is open to interpretation. One friendly word of caution: Beware of cherry-picked information!

There is mention in some media reports of a male suspect, but remember that convenient suspects are easy to find and easy to blame, yet can (and often do) turn out to be innocent. True crime cases are always full of coincidences, alignments and convergences that could take us to any number of individuals who seem like 'strong suspects'. Coincidences are not evidence.

I am left with a feeling of deep unease that a report naming a potentially innocent person has been leaked to the press and media. Who leaked it? If the leaker was this lady, then I am in two minds about her actions. On one level, her behaviour is unjust and irresponsible and I can see why the police would seek to charge her with justice offences. An important duty of the police is to uphold justice impartially, and in this case an individual against whom there may be no real evidence has had his name passed around the press and media. On the other hand, I can also see the higher public interest motivation for leaking the information. It's a classic dilemma for which there is probably no satisfactory answer. Even if the individual is innocent, that doesn't necessarily militate against the wider moral defence of public interest, which some would say should be a legal defence too.

I do accept that the police now have a vested interest in denying her theory, as any admission that she may be right potentially makes them look careless or negligent. Even in large, and supposedly impartial and professional bodies, such as the police, normal human nature takes over and people under attack become spiteful and defensive, even if it is not their own personal actions being criticised or questioned. At the same time, and in defence of the police, what looks like institutional obstinance may not be that at all. It may just be that the police have looked at her report and spoken with her, considered it all, and decided there is nothing in it that they can work with, or nothing in it at all. If so, the police are then in a dilemma. If they publicly reject her report and theory, people may interpret this as obstinance. Perhaps the police have reasoned that it is best to say little or nothing and let it all blow over and be forgotten?

An excellent post.

I am former UK LE and following a high profile missing person enquiry on WS. It is apparent that there are those who will cry 'police corruption and cover up' because it has become their default position.

The police have a great deal to do to restore public faith and I'm not even sure they truly realise it yet. The police are locked in a them/us mindset with the public and I've also been part of it from the other side.....it comes from dealing predominantly with offenders and losing touch with the reality that most people are generally law abiding and contribute positively to society.

In this case the police appear to be doing what is needed. They can and will stick to their guns. They will also investigate thoroughly the merest suggestion that a police officer, police staff, PCSO, Special Constable etc have transgressed any of the core policing values or the law. The police demand absolute integrity, commitment to duty and impartiality and they know they have to be seen to be enforcing standards robustly.

As with most stories like this, there is much that we don't know. My gut instinct is that the Coroners Officer has exceeded her remit after her concerns were not progressed in the way she had hoped, possibly because seasonsoned senior detectives have more information and the experience to make more sound judgements.

That the report was leaked is regrettable. Allegedly disclosing data from police systems to external agencies/individuals is a serious matter if the relevant data sharing principles have not been followed.

If she felt that her concerns were sound but being ignored then the best course of action would probably be to have contacted her local MP. At least she would have proof that she had raised the matter.

 

[MarleyMo]

The motive in these cases just seems to me to be bloodlust and sheer enjoyment of violent murder. The elderly may just be targeted because they're in a position of vulnerability. These cases remind me of the murder of the Smith family in Northfield, Birmingham in 1992. Some points seem to be strikingly similar. Harry, Mary and their grown up disabled wheelchair bound son Harold were discovered in their bungalow after not being seen for several days. They had all been stabbed hundreds of times in the body, neck and head and been bludgeoned with a heavy implement. There was no sign of forced entry, no third party evidence found at the scene and Mrs Smith's underwear had been tampered with. It had been staged to look like a burglary gone wrong but nothing had been taken. The overkill element was all there and all of the victims were found in a bedroom. I don't know how common these types of crimes are (not very I hope) but there are obviously similarities with the Wilmslow cases and the timeframe fits. I know Birmingham and Wilmslow aren't exactly in the same vicinity but the perpetrator could have travelled. It might be entirely unrelated either way but there are definitely similarities there.

 

[dotr]

The motive in these cases just seems to me to be bloodlust and sheer enjoyment of violent murder. The elderly may just be targeted because they're in a position of vulnerability. These cases remind me of the murder of the Smith family in Northfield, Birmingham in 1992. Some points seem to be strikingly similar. Harry, Mary and their grown up disabled wheelchair bound son Harold were discovered in their bungalow after not being seen for several days. They had all been stabbed hundreds of times in the body, neck and head and been bludgeoned with a heavy implement. There was no sign of forced entry, no third party evidence found at the scene and Mrs Smith's underwear had been tampered with. It had been staged to look like a burglary gone wrong but nothing had been taken. The overkill element was all there and all of the victims were found in a bedroom. I don't know how common these types of crimes are (not very I hope) but there are obviously similarities with the Wilmslow cases and the timeframe fits. I know Birmingham and Wilmslow aren't exactly in the same vicinity but the perpetrator could have travelled. It might be entirely unrelated either way but there are definitely similarities there.

Welcome to Ws MarleyMo!
Interesting, it is all so strange and ghastly..

From the Archives: Brutal triple murder that left a community in fear

TODAY Overbury Close in Northfield is a quiet cul de sac where families live side-by-side with elderly neighbours enjoying their twilight years, a picture of a harmonious community.

www.birminghammail.co.uk

 

[Kemug]

The one link I can see with all these cases, is that all had some form of regular contact with a medical establishment, such a GP surgery or hospital, through their various minor and major illnesses and conditions:

BA - 'stomach bug & vomiting'

DW - had 'water problems', seen doctor as worried about prostate

AW - arthritis and on meds for back problems

MH - Parkinson's

VH - arthritis

KM - diabetes, had strokes and prostate cancer

EM - vascular dementia

SW - acute mental health problems, eyesight problems

You've just described me, my family and my friends!

 

[badgersmythe]

Senior coroner's officer takes employer to employment tribunal

Stephanie Davies, who created the 179-page report is taking Cheshire Police to an Employment Tribunal after they suspended her for raising concerns over a possible serial killer.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[dotr]

Senior coroner's officer takes employer to employment tribunal

Stephanie Davies, who created the 179-page report is taking Cheshire Police to an Employment Tribunal after they suspended her for raising concerns over a possible serial killer.

www.dailymail.co.uk

There is a link which may not be permitted to post, but the steps taken by the Coroner are outlined within it. Search..

''Punished for Blowing the Whistle on Staged Murder-Suicides **​

by Stephanie C Davies''

 

[RobinCAL]

I wonder if we will find out any new information if this does go to court .

Thanks for the update !