UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #5

[WestLondoner]

That simply isn't true.
It was a pub! It was open in the evening! No "window" was needed - she could have called in on her way home after the tennis, or walked around the corner to the pub after getting home

Maybe, maybe not. Someone she spoke to at a pub at 11 in the morning wouldn't necessarily be around at 10pm. She could walk in and someone could say Sorry, who are you? I don't know anything about any lost property.

It is enough of an assumption to make me think DV must have more than this. Why did he fly to New Zealand, for example? There's no mention of that leading anywhere in the book.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Agree it's weird. There were three irreconcilable accounts:

1/ WJ said SJL's Fiesta was at 123SR from about 12.50
2/ HR said he saw a couple (assumed by the police to be SJL + 1) outside 37SR at 13.00
3/ BW said she saw SJL in her car at 14.45.

If #1 is correct, neither of the others can be. #2 and #3 could be correct. Yet #1 and #2 are the ones the police believe, even though they rule each other out.

The police thought WJ saw the fiesta around 3pm or later & revised earlier opinion.

Then BW sighting at 2:45pm & reports of argument around Finlay then a sep report of an argument around Bishop’s Park & then MJ sighting.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

AFAIK the police think BW was mistaken on the day, but this was the first working day post weekend & they checked with colleagues & her work diary & she was well organised & insistent.

 

[Cherwell]

Maybe, maybe not. Someone she spoke to at a pub at 11 in the morning wouldn't necessarily be around at 10pm. She could walk in and someone could say Sorry, who are you? I don't know anything about any lost property.

She wouldn't know that till she got there though. As far as she would have been aware, she had the whole of the rest of the evening to call at the pub, so there didn't need to be a "window" between work and tennis.

 

[WestLondoner]

She wouldn't know that till she got there though. As far as she would have been aware, she had the whole of the rest of the evening to call at the pub, so there didn't need to be a "window" between work and tennis.

I'm still not convinced TBH. If you speak to someone at 10am you can't just assume they'll still be there and at work if you decide to rock up ten hours later. I would assume I can turn up there when the person I've spoken to has said s/he'll be there, and not turn up otherwise.

Hence I think DV must have more reasons to say what he does than he's put in his book. Most obviously, the only potential killer of SJL identified at the PoW is CV, but we know there was also Brendon the cellarman, and MH the perm landlord said he had a lot of people on call he could ring up to come in and help. I wonder why it can't be any of them? Does he have more on CV?

He must also know whether the pub was open or not. It could be closed because stocktaking all morning, or it could have been open and quiet, or it could have been open and busy. If it's either of the latter two, there would surely have been others about, so no opportunity for anyone to kill anyone. You can't just overlook something like that an assume the pub was shut.

These are obvious questions unanswered in the book which I think are greater challenges to his theory than the idea that she could have gone there any time. Maybe she couldn't, so she had to go that lunchtime, but if so, see previous paragraph!

 

[WestLondoner]

Re the jogger and the arguing-in-BMW pair - was this reported at the time and overlooked, or one of those remembered-perfectly-14-years-later sightings?

 

[Terryb808]

Re the jogger and the arguing-in-BMW pair - was this reported at the time and overlooked, or one of those remembered-perfectly-14-years-later sightings?

I can’t quote, but I’ve read somewhere that it was reported at the time and overlooked.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

We had x2 independent sightings of an arguing couple at the time around Stevenage Rd south of barrier 2:30pm approx. Then Galway-a-likes at Finlay St area around same time. Additionally, in Stevenage Rd, MJ’s, no time given, but here a handsome, sun tanned man & someone carrying books/papers seen.

Then BW’s sighting at about 2:45pm.

The jogger’s sighting came around 2000, he was near Bishop’s Park entrance, interestingly, I think there were phone boxes here. An arguing couple & he mentions he didn’t realise it was a left hand drive BMW. How had anyone concluded it was?

The jogger, says JD, had passed this info on at the time to a pop up temp police station & it wasn’t forwarded on. Other info was lost, the passing on of note for SL in pub etc, & other mistakes like this made so why not plausible?

The older, distinctive, BMW as seen in Shorrolds. There is compelling evidence one was parked here. The police got halfway through checking owners etc. Was the model more likely LHD? Hence jogger’s remark.

All the other sightings in Shorrolds are earlier. DV tries to track down one of these witnesses, ND, his account is worth reading. Had he used an alias to police wonders DV? I think.

JI’s account, as relayed in AS, is quite compelling. Clearly a man or man and woman were there in vicinity of 37 at about 12:45-1:30pm. If not SL, then? Maybe just a pick up point for SL? Esp if person had seen it or previously viewed in week before.

 

[RichardKimble]

We had x2 independent sightings of an arguing couple at the time around Stevenage Rd south of barrier 2:30pm approx. Then Galway-a-likes at Finlay St area around same time. Additionally, in Stevenage Rd, MJ’s, no time given, but here a handsome, sun tanned man & someone carrying books/papers seen.

Then BW’s sighting at about 2:45pm.

The jogger’s sighting came around 2000, he was near Bishop’s Park entrance, interestingly, I think there were phone boxes here. An arguing couple & he mentions he didn’t realise it was a left hand drive BMW. How had anyone concluded it was?

The jogger, says JD, had passed this info on at the time to a pop up temp police station & it wasn’t forwarded on. Other info was lost, the passing on of note for SL in pub etc, & other mistakes like this made so why not plausible?

The older, distinctive, BMW as seen in Shorrolds. There is compelling evidence one was parked here. The police got halfway through checking owners etc. Was the model more likely LHD? Hence jogger’s remark.

All the other sightings in Shorrolds are earlier. DV tries to track down one of these witnesses, ND, his account is worth reading. Had he used an alias to police wonders DV? I think.

JI’s account, as relayed in AS, is quite compelling. Clearly a man or man and woman were there in vicinity of 37 at about 12:45-1:30pm. If not SL, then? Maybe just a pick up point for SL? Esp if person had seen it or previously viewed in week before.

Ref the BMW how difficult could it have been to trace a left hand drive car, if it was on British plates that meant in all likelihood it was reregistered, unless it was used for nefarious reasons and the plates were false.

 

[lee sumner]

Seen it now. Not among her better efforts.

Interestingly, Barry George of Jill Dando fame did 18 months for attempted rape and was released in September 1984. He's also from the same area of London as SJL. It does show how long a list you can assemble of known sex offenders in west London and in turn it makes wonder if any besides JC were ever seriously looked at.

yes, i thought of BG. his address at time of JD murder was around the corner from sturgis. he was known for stalking women, and would have been in his 20s in the 1980s.

 

[lee sumner]

That is not the person I was talking about.

who did you mean then.

 

[WestLondoner]

Could jailbird JC be described as suntanned?

JI's observation that the Mr Kipper sketch face should have been thinner would have made it look more like JC IMO. Against this, I don't see how he'd be suntanned or why the Fiesta seat would need to be moved back for someone who appears to have been about 5'8".

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Ref the BMW how difficult could it have been to trace a left hand drive car, if it was on British plates that meant in all likelihood it was reregistered, unless it was used for nefarious reasons and the plates were false.

The car was in unusually good condition & there were relatively few on the road.

ND noticed ‘the large yellow key fob’ the woman was holding. Which is interesting & it’s true Sturgis’ fobs were large & noticeable.

 

[WestLondoner]

ND noticed ‘the large yellow key fob’ the woman was holding. Which is interesting & it’s true Sturgis’ fobs were large & noticeable.

Although IIRC he didn't come forward for 2 weeks having seen the reconstruction on TV - which prominently featured the keys.

If DV is right and SJL did not in fact take the keys, then ND's account must be a bit suspect, containing as it does details that he cannot actually have seen.

 

[Cherwell]

I'm still not convinced TBH. If you speak to someone at 10am you can't just assume they'll still be there and at work if you decide to rock up ten hours later. I would assume I can turn up there when the person I've spoken to has said s/he'll be there, and not turn up otherwise.

That might be so in some cases, but this was a pub. And back then there were split opening hours, so it was likely that the manager would be there on both shifts, especially as it was his first day in charge. We don't know for sure exactly what was said - my money is on him telling her to come after six. There's no reason why it would have been important to come AT six.

And if for any reason he wasn't going to be there later, he would have mentioned it to the bar staff:
"The lady who lost these items is coming in later to collect them, I'll put them here".

I mean, she lived round the corner! She would have had all evening to call in, and she would have known that. It's not as though the pub was across the river or miles out of her way.

who did you mean then.

Read back and you will see.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Although IIRC he didn't come forward for 2 weeks having seen the reconstruction on TV - which prominently featured the keys.

If DV is right and SJL did not in fact take the keys, then ND's account must be a bit suspect, containing as it does details that he cannot actually have seen.

Good point. Do we know when MJ came forward & if she gave a time?

 

[lee sumner]

Could jailbird JC be described as suntanned?

JI's observation that the Mr Kipper sketch face should have been thinner would have made it look more like JC IMO. Against this, I don't see how he'd be suntanned or why the Fiesta seat would need to be moved back for someone who appears to have been about 5'8".

JC not suntanned, fresh out of prison release hostel, he was probably very pale.

 

[Pinkizzy]

JC not suntanned, fresh out of prison release hostel, he was probably very pale.

He wasn't pale because he had 6 months of work for a company in Acton

 

[shadwell]

Could jailbird JC be described as suntanned?

JI's observation that the Mr Kipper sketch face should have been thinner would have made it look more like JC IMO. Against this, I don't see how he'd be suntanned or why the Fiesta seat would need to be moved back for someone who appears to have been about 5'8".

Was it ever made clear whether the driver’s seat was pushed back to the limit of travel or just to somewhere near it? It’s the difference between pushing the seat back to (eg) change shoes/pick up something from the seat well or it being actually adjusted for a taller driver.

 

[WestLondoner]

He wasn't pale because he had 6 months of work for a company in Acton

People who work outside can sometimes look suntanned I suppose, but I did at that time, and I didn't look suntanned....

Was it ever made clear whether the driver’s seat was pushed back to the limit of travel or just to somewhere near it? It’s the difference between pushing the seat back to (eg) change shoes/pick up something from the seat well or it being actually adjusted for a taller driver.

AS says all the way back.

The passenger door being locked is a bit odd too. You can easily lock it from the driver's seat - Fiestas are not wide cars - and you could lock it, get out, shut the door and it would stay locked. Funny things to do when ditching a hot car in a hurry though.