lee sumner
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true. occams razor is the way to think. like you say. dont over complicate things when trying to work out what happened that day.
UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #6
- Thread starter Pinkizzy
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If John Cannan killed Suzy, the the official story is:
JC encountered Suzy whilst on day release, and she let slip that she was an estate agent in Fulham Road.
JC was a free man on the Friday, and immediately went to stalk Suzy.
He tracked her down and called her on Froday or Saturday morning, posing as Mr Kipper, a businessman looking for houses in Fulham.
Suzy doesn't recognise his voice when he calls, because she doesn't know him, other than one brief meeting.
On Monday lunchtime JC buys his usual props of flowers and champagne. He thinks he'll be able to seduce Suzy.
She has a lot going on in her complicated life, and isn't impressed with his romantic gesture. He has her show him another property, but she's getting suspicious now.
Eventually he produces a knife and forces her to drive to his accomodation.
JC then kills Susy, drives her car away from his base, then uses his friend's car to transport Suzy's body for permanent disposal.
He travels north, planning to use his mother's house as an excuse for his journey, and possible base for his disposal of his first murder victim.
.
JC encountered Suzy whilst on day release, and she let slip that she was an estate agent in Fulham Road.
JC was a free man on the Friday, and immediately went to stalk Suzy.
He tracked her down and called her on Froday or Saturday morning, posing as Mr Kipper, a businessman looking for houses in Fulham.
Suzy doesn't recognise his voice when he calls, because she doesn't know him, other than one brief meeting.
On Monday lunchtime JC buys his usual props of flowers and champagne. He thinks he'll be able to seduce Suzy.
She has a lot going on in her complicated life, and isn't impressed with his romantic gesture. He has her show him another property, but she's getting suspicious now.
Eventually he produces a knife and forces her to drive to his accomodation.
JC then kills Susy, drives her car away from his base, then uses his friend's car to transport Suzy's body for permanent disposal.
He travels north, planning to use his mother's house as an excuse for his journey, and possible base for his disposal of his first murder victim.
.
CocktailQueen
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I was only 3 in 1986 so those of you older than me (or just smarter than me!) hopefully have better knowledge. Can someone help with these questions…
Would it be the norm for a woman to just take a purse and keys into work? Or would they be in a handbag? Like a bag with a strap that could be draped over your shoulder. Did Suzy take a handbag too? Just thinking if you have keys, purse, cheque book, diary that’s a lot to carry around. Especially as it was July so less likely to have coats with pockets to store things in. Also Suzy comes across as a fashionable lady and handbags are often a fashion trend. Where they in 1986?
If she was going to show a prospective buyer a property would it be the norm to take her purse with her? Surely she’d leave it in her desk? Unless she was going to buy lunch while she was out, maybe. Or were personal items not as safe as I’m imagining in 1986? For context I’ve worked in places with lockers (that you put your own padlock on) as well as places you’d leave your bag (with keys phone purse in) in the office which was only accessed by management but was never locked, though there was cctv!
How likely was it that people would leave their purse/wallet in a car in London? I suppose it was in the door pocket so not easy to see a small purse. I can’t imagine my parents doing this. I grew up in London (not Fulham but a ‘nice’ middle class area ) and my mum was always very protective of her purse and handbag, and would only have left it in the car by accident.
How is Kieper pronounced? Is it like kiper to rhyme with (window) wiper? If so it seems strange that Suzy would put 2 ‘p’s in but I did also read that she was dyslexic, so maybe that explains it. Or some people are just not good at spelling. Or does it sound like kipper to rhyme with flipper? Which would make more sense. Though I’m still leaning towards it being a fake appointment and the name was inspired by Mr Herring who lived on Shorrolds road.
Would it be the norm for a woman to just take a purse and keys into work? Or would they be in a handbag? Like a bag with a strap that could be draped over your shoulder. Did Suzy take a handbag too? Just thinking if you have keys, purse, cheque book, diary that’s a lot to carry around. Especially as it was July so less likely to have coats with pockets to store things in. Also Suzy comes across as a fashionable lady and handbags are often a fashion trend. Where they in 1986?
If she was going to show a prospective buyer a property would it be the norm to take her purse with her? Surely she’d leave it in her desk? Unless she was going to buy lunch while she was out, maybe. Or were personal items not as safe as I’m imagining in 1986? For context I’ve worked in places with lockers (that you put your own padlock on) as well as places you’d leave your bag (with keys phone purse in) in the office which was only accessed by management but was never locked, though there was cctv!
How likely was it that people would leave their purse/wallet in a car in London? I suppose it was in the door pocket so not easy to see a small purse. I can’t imagine my parents doing this. I grew up in London (not Fulham but a ‘nice’ middle class area ) and my mum was always very protective of her purse and handbag, and would only have left it in the car by accident.
How is Kieper pronounced? Is it like kiper to rhyme with (window) wiper? If so it seems strange that Suzy would put 2 ‘p’s in but I did also read that she was dyslexic, so maybe that explains it. Or some people are just not good at spelling. Or does it sound like kipper to rhyme with flipper? Which would make more sense. Though I’m still leaning towards it being a fake appointment and the name was inspired by Mr Herring who lived on Shorrolds road.
Observe_dont_Absorb
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I can only speak as to myself but in the 80s I worked as a secretary / office admin.
In those days people were expected to be very smartly dressed for work and also well groomed. Most women who wanted to be taken seriously had a smart leather satchel type bag for work if my memory serves well.
Most important thing would be a purse with money for buses / tubes / parking meters and daily expenses. Plus keys - house keys, car keys, work keys. We'd usually also take hairbrush, compact mirror, little bits of make up, and sanitary products, as well as in those days *everyone* had paper diaries of some sort with all their names and numbers stored as we didn't even have filofaxes or electronic storage devices yet then. Many people smoked back then in offices (we had ashtrays on our desks) and those of us who were smokers carried packets of cigarettes and lighters or matches. In the office we'd usually have a spare pair of tights and some deodorant etc.
People also nearly always carried some form of newspaper, plus a book or magazine and a fold up umbrella in case of rain.
So... a lot!! I remember having little leather satchels with fancy clips or buckles.
WestLondoner
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Presumably something of this kind is what the police assume happened. The devil is in the detail though. How did he get to the 37SR appointment; if they left there in her car, why was it seen outside 123StR; if they left there in his, when was her car removed; why is there no sign they went inside 37SR; why did she not just end the meeting as soon as Mr. Creepy turns up; if this was Cannan, why did he use his alleged prison nickname as a false name...
The supposition I think is that she took only her purse expecting a short errand and maybe a stop to buy lunch on the way back. You'd put a purse in a door pocket while driving so it stayed put but you'd take it with you; so the purse being found in the door suggests she had only stepped out of the car for a few seconds.
As OdA has commented, women did and do carry around things like hairbrushes in handbags but SJL's was left in the office. One can over-analyse but this suggests that she wasn't going to an appointment such that her personal appearance would matter. If she was meeting a possible new bloke she would have cared about this.
The diary and being reunited with it were more important in 1986 than generally recognised. It was as important as a phone today; it had everything in it, ex-directory and work extension numbers could only be obtained personally.
But it may have been where she made notes about buyers' reactions to viewings. If she went to 37SR expecting a genuine viewing with the hitherto-unknown Mr Kipper, at minimum she'd need some way to write down all the usual details about this new sales prospect that they don't yet have about him. Does he have a place to sell? Is it under offer, has anyone been instructed? What's his budget, what's his preferred area, what's his timing, flat or house, does he need to be near a Tube, does he need a mortgage, does he have a mortgage offer, has he retained a solicitor, who are they? Is he the decision maker, or is there a Mrs Kipper?
This is all basic stuff an agent needs to know. If a supposed buyer gives dumb answers they aren't plausible. I can't figure out why she would go to a viewing not yet knowing any of this and inequipped to note it all down, or why she'd go to meet an admirer without a hairbrush or mirror.
WiseOwl
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Interesting theory, but it doesn't explain how Suzy's car was parked at Stevenage Road from 12.45 until it was found in the same location by the police at 10pm that evening.
Thank you for this
Suzy's dna and cannan's dna was found to be in the same car I always felt this was maybe because it was a loan car .suzy had her car repaired in a garage shortly before she went missing and cannan was friendly with a mechanic so maybe both used the car separately. I know cannan had MO and he has alluded to knowing something but a lot of killers when caught will boast or allude to having I higher body count for notoriety.
A cigarette butt was found in suzy's car .it could have been by a person working at the garage or not. Was it swabbed for dna and if not why not ? .Cigarette butts are very important evidence as they come into direct contact with saliva.I do know plenty of suzy's friends smoked but she disliked the smell so feel she would not have willing allowed someone to smoke in her car .
I feel the same as you if she was meeting someone for a house viewing. Why would it be secret .She would have had to bring a work diary and prehaps a calculator, even if just to jot down a few figures or next appointment date .I have read she didn't bring the keys for the house either . A house viewing no matter the year is quite formal and suzy was earning commission so would have wanted to keep a record of any meet ups she had with potential buyers . The sightings of suzy and a man outside property I feel was also a false lead a lot of women with blonde hair ( see paragraph below this) with similar haircuts and styling and similar heights and figure can look the same from behind (not generalising just observation over the years and mistaking strangers for known friends lol )
As regards the diamond dealer keiper who did own a BMW why was this not looked into further .suzy had mentioned she met a rich man . I feel suzy's liaisons with men inhibited the case as sometimes police forces or public will overlook other possibilities when it comes to less "virginal "women . Which is why her mum may have wanted her painted as one .
The diary going missing or prehaps intentional lifted from her handbag imo was taken by someone who knew she had it and knew she wrote personal things in there . If suzy was drunk as speculated she may not have noticed someone going through her handbag or as I have thought it to be a woman who took it for a read/ nosey prehaps asked for a loan of a hairbrush /lipstick/ makeup of some sort and suzy told them to get it themselves. I know I would allow a trusted friend go to my handbag to get something such as this . And after reading said diary discarded it in carpark /outside pub to make it look like suzy dropped it drunk .I always felt diary was taken for a snoop by whomever took it .cheque book just happened to be either stuck between the pages or beside it and taken quickly as a 'pair ' . As if chequebook was taken deliberately by a pickpocket it would have been used and not found .diary would have been discarded and no more of that .Was diary swabbed for fingerprints. Is it still in forensic storage or given back to family ?
In summary I believe suzy was murdered by someone who knew her and it was two people or more prehaps a couple one to dispose / hide the body one to drive suzy's car and park it offside I have never understood why the pub was not explored more . The sighting of a blonde woman and a man arguing/laughing in the car may not of been suzy but another woman .
it has been assumed suzy dyed her hair blonde from dye found in the bathroom but why ? when she had spent a lot in a hair salon to have it coloured brown with highlights only recently. Did her job verify if she had done this as she was in work the day she went missing or cctv footage otherwise it doesn't stand to fact . There is multiple shades of blonde and if someone has some highlights going through brown a lot of people will just say blonde imo .
There is a lot of evidence that day that point to suzy just popping out of the office for a quick excursion. I feel she would have wanted her extremely personal diary back ASAP and went to get that .Maybe as you say grab a quick bite to eat or glass of something at the pub .If she was meeting a new or old suitor she would have at least brought a lipstick to apply in car before or after to go back to office .she cared about her appearance and was obviously glamorous. She had the mind to take a purse so why not anything else ?
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What's the source for her car being positively identified in Stevenage Road at 12.45 please?
Wouldn't that invalidate pretty much all the other potential sightings that day?
What is the exact time suzy left the office please . Yes it would invalidate them if true . One thing I have learned over the years is that people in an investigation want to' help ' so police end up with a lot of false sightings and leads .we only have to look at more recent cases to see this in action .
And if suzy had dyed her hair blonde how did the witnesses know it was her .suzy's car was a common model and not rare I assume and registration numbers unless personalised are generally not noted .I would not know my own families car registration for example
What's the source for Cannan's DNA being found in Suzy's car please?
I don't think there's any physical evidence linking him to Suzy (as things stand).
WiseOwl
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It is in AS's book on page 26 (AS had access to the police reports at the time):
'Standing on her doorstep, WJ told a policeman that the previous day (28 July) she took her dog for a very brief walk at 12.40pm, then returned home before calling for a neighbour, AM. She noticed as she did so that a white Ford Fiesta was parked by the Mahon's garage, slightly overlapping the entrance, and she wondered whether AM's husband LM would have difficulty getting his car into the garage that evening.
The two women then drove to the NatWest Bank by Fulham Cross, where AM was changing a large amount of coins and she was embarrassed by taking so much time doing this when there were other lunchtime customers waiting behind her. She glanced up at the Bank's clock and noticed it was 12.49. A couple of hours later WJ returned home from shopping and noticed that the white car was still there, still overlapping the driveway to the garage by a few inches. She was certain it had not moved. Later that evening she went to the cinema, and when she returned at about 10.30 the car was not only still in the same place but by now the police were swarming all around it too.
Police quickly established that WJ and AM were reliable women who were able to give accurate timings for their movements. They even checked the bank clock, and found it to be accurate too.
It is pretty hard not to believe the testimony of WJ, AM & LM (who saw the car parked overlapping the driveway when he returned home at 5.15), so from their information it does look as if Suzy's car was parked in Stevenage Road from at least 12.45 that day.
Occams razor is truly the way this case needs to be looked at .I feel the same as you it was over complicated as Suzy's life seems to have been complicated .
If we simplify the facts and start from the office and the happenings in the couple of days over the weekend. We know her diary and chequebook were taken /lost .She went to work .She left the office. Everything else is speculation and hunches imo .
Questions I have are : Was she seen taking the purse from her handbag /walking out of the office with it in her hand or was it left in the car from that morning. Was it swabbed for prints along with the gearstick and steering wheel ,inside door etc .nowadays this would be common practice but in the 80s a lot of police work was done with door to door inquiries, hunches and Questions put to witnesses/ suspects usually good cop bad cop scenario.
The missing hairstraightners .where they ever located and if not did suzy usually have them in the car (potentially a murder weapon from back seat if someone was hiding in her car .
We know the passenger side door was locked .Were the back doors .if passenger side was locked How is it valid that suzy was seen driving with a man in the car presumably in front seat . Where is her car now ? What CCTV footage if any is there of suzy leaving the office is there proof she left ? How long was it since her house mate seen her and did she see suzy dye her hair or over the weekend? Did Suzy regularly run personal errands and write in work diary 'made up" clients ? Would she normally tell office staff if she was meeting potential buyers or would she keep it to herself? If suzy was meeting a potential client, would she normally retouch her make-up/ brush her hair / reapply perfume etc or bring her handbag ? Who was the rich man she had a date with and told her parents about ?Was he located ? When was this date ?. Surely phone evidence or places she went to in the 2 weeks prior were asked for CCTV or her diary looked at for a lead as regards this ???
If suzy went to the house for sale to meet a hook up Would she use empty properties for this purpose so as to keep her liaisons secret ? Was evidence found that she ever stepped into the property? Everybody leaves a trace whether a fingerprint ,hair or fibre . Was the pedals in her car tested for shoe prints? ,I know the seat was pulled back and it wasn't suzys "fit" The car was potentially the last place suzy was so I hope it was gone through with a fine tooth comb
I will find and post I think on either cannan's or suzy's Wikipedia page
WiseOwl
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The time Suzy left her office has always been in dispute. This is what it says about her leaving the office in AS's book (page 28):
KR (temporary secretary) went to her bank at 12.30 but returned 5 minutes later and remembered seeing Suzy on the phone and half-sitting on her desk as if she was about to leave. She went to pick up the keys to 37 Shorrolds Road from the board behind MG's desk, and then took the house details from a drawer. Everything seemed normal. She was carrying her purse too, and a ring holding the keys of her car, the office and her flat. NH recalled that as she went out of the door she turned back to ask JC 'where did you say my car was?' - and then she was gone.
So this would assume Suzy left the office around 12.40, but that would have made it impossible to get to Stevenage Road by 12.45, as seen by witnesses WJ & AM. The police seem to think that Suzy may have left her office around 12.30, so possibly the Sturgis staff were 10 minutes out with their timing.
Disappearance of Suzy Lamplugh - Wikipedia
The time KR went to bank seems very rounded off imo and by looks of this extract temporary secretary had use of suzys car to do this visit to the bank so I'm now thinking the sightings of suzy's car around the similar timings was quite possible the temp driving it .Do we know if both had same / similar hair styling or colour
And if the above extract is to be believed suzy was on the phone sitting at her desk ,grabbed her purse ,car keys ,got something out of the drawer ,got keys from board ,spoke to temporary secretary all in 5 /10 minutes walked to her car that she hadn't parked got in , started up the car ,pulled out and drove to Stevenage all between 12.35 and 12.45 !!!even if sturgis staff were out by 10 minutes surely cross examination from bank could verify a little more detail on times and if suzy was on the phone in the office could this not verify what time suzy was definitely in the office and from whom that phone call was to or from