UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #6

[su5ie]

The red flags for me against it being a unknown perpetrator. If suzy was accosted on Whittingstall Road. Would she not have dropped her belongings from her hands in a struggle to get her in her car or other car. Would a perp pick them up off the ground if he was trying to avoid being seen ? .paper may blow away but not a key with a large fob and it clearly stated Sturgis so would someone not hand it in even if they didn't know suzy was missing?

In the crimewatch reconstruction it shows suzy leaving the office with house details and 37SR keys in her left hand and purse and her own keys in right hand you would surely panic release the items from your clutch if you were being forced into a car even with a weapon. The only way you would get in without dropping them and have time to place purse in side pocket of door is if perp was hiding in back seat or it was someone known to suzy waiting at her car . But that doesn't explain passenger door locked

If something happened at pow ,why would suzy bring 37SR details and keys into pub surely she would just leave them on the seat . And why was no solid forensic evidence retrieved from car I get that perp could use gloves but why bother removing these and not suzys purse . I feel the purse was already in the car from that morning. How many times have us ladies done this shove it in side door and leave it there ? But still doesn't explain missing items ?

If she was abducted from Stevenage or Shorrolds by an unknown perp would the paperwork and key still not be either in the car or in 37SR or on the ground. Would Wendy or HR not hear a struggle?

I definitely feel the person responsible was well known to suzy she trusted them . And I wouldn't rule out Sturgis staff so lightly I think it's an angle worth looking at . Thus far no other scenario has thrown up anything and this is an area that has been glossed over as everyone takes the staff at their word .For me a large portion of the population is capable of lying and covering up a murder they just need a big enough reason and the right set of circumstances . Was there a bin collection that morning? Was there an area at the back of Sturgis an alleyway for storage of rubbish ?

 

[Terryb808]

The simple answer to the property details & keys has been put forward by DV, she just didn’t take them and that’s why they’ve never been found.
The reason her car keys are missing is again fairly easily explained, when you’re in a hurry (as it appears was the case when her car was abandoned) you do things automatically.
Turn the car ignition off, pull out the keys and leave the car, you then realise you still have the car keys.

 

[WiseOwl]

The simple answer to the property details & keys has been put forward by DV, she just didn’t take them and that’s why they’ve never been found.
The reason her car keys are missing is again fairly easily explained, when you’re in a hurry (as it appears was the case when her car was abandoned) you do things automatically.
Turn the car ignition off, pull out the keys and leave the car, you then realise you still have the car keys.

If Suzy didn't take the keys or the house details with her, then what's the explanation as to what happened to them. They have never been seen again?

DV seems to have spread this myth about Suzy not taking the keys, but as some posters on this thread have pointed out, whether the appointment was real or not, either way she would have taken the keys.

 

[WestLondoner]

IMO DV is right to point out that there are some oddities around the keys, which I don't think have been bottomed out.

If it is correct that SJL took the keys, then clearly she took the only set Sturgis had. This would have made any search of 37SR by colleagues impossible until entry was forced, or another set was obtained. It's not clear to me that MG or anyone would have rung the client in the ME about this instantly. As an agent, losing the property keys makes you look like a buffoon, and you're not going to own up to this until you're 100% sure that's what you are.

I'm not sure you could have got around the back of 37SR to effect entry. The rear of the property is now a gated mews development sandwiched between the backs of two terraces. IHNI how long that has been there. You'd need to find a 1986 London A-Z to know.

So how the police actually got in seems like it would have been complicated enough for someone to note down at the time how it was done. Instead, any discussion is entirely absent from the usual records. AS says nothing about it but does mention that the police broke SJL's own door down. Why didn't they break down 37SR? If they had some cunning way of getting into 37SR that left no damage - a detail that DV notes from the newspaper photos printed within a day or two - why didn't they use that same way to get into her flat?

What he's arguing is essentially a massive outbreak of groupthink. As I read DV, the police used keys given them by Sturgis to get in, and failed to twig that this was the only set. Witnesses described her taking the keys, but per DV they didn't actually see her doing this, they only assumed she did because they assumed a viewing. MG is inconsistent as to whether he was at his desk or not when she left. Are these people remembering what she did at 12.40, or what she did at some other time that they assume was at 12.40? DV I think reckons the police believe she went to 37SR, and have groupthinked their way to believing they have witnesses confirmatory of HR. But HR said he heard people coming out of 37. If this is true, she had the keys, yet neither she nor "Mr Kipper" left a trace of any visit inside (if JC's prints had been found, we'd 100% know all about it). How is that possible? Sure, "Mr Kipper" could walk around with his hands in his pockets touching nothing, but how was he going to stop SJL touching door handles, light switches, banister rails, and the like? If she did not go inside, why would she have taken the keys anyway, having no intention of going inside?

It could all be irrelevant, and for his PoW theory to stack up, DV needs to debunk WJ and BW as well as to undermine CV / KH. Even if he's right about the keys it doesn't make him right about the PoW. In passing though the police apparently think she went on to do another viewing, presumably at 123SR. How did they think she was getting in there? Is there yet another set of keys in play?

 

[WestLondoner]

On the question of the car outside 123SR, the only scenario that fits with WJ's account is if SJL left with the 37SR keys, but drove not to 37SR, but to 123SR. Here she instantly switched cars, making WJ's sighting possible. She may or may not have then gone to 37SR driven by someone else (although if she were driven to 37SR by A N Other, the reports of her waiting outside make no sense; she and the supposed client arrived at the same time, in the same car).

This someone did her harm, but did not know if her colleagues knew where she had gone. If she had told them she was off to 37SR, OK, it would certainly be visited. But if she had not - well, why gift the police the information about 37SR? Why not return to her car and remove from it all evidence of any intended visit to 37SR? - the sales details, the keys, etc. If nobody has a clue where she went, where do the police start looking for her? Hopeless. So SJL drove the car there, but someone else came back later, opened it, ransacked it for evidence then left. Had she not left that diary note, the police would have no idea where she had gone until her car was found at the red herring location of 123SR at 10pm. This would have been a useful delay and decoy.

It's not a foolproof plan. Presumably the police could have had Sturgis identify what one set of house keys was missing. That would tell them which keys she probably had, and would have led them to 37SR eventually. By that time, though, recollections of who had seen what would be fading. The really clever thing would have been if the keys were apparently somehow not missing. If there's another set still in the office, it would cast doubt on whether she ever went to 37SR.

 

[WestLondoner]

If Suzy didn't take the keys or the house details with her, then what's the explanation as to what happened to them. They have never been seen again?

DV's hypothesis is that there was no missing set of keys and they were seen again. They remained in the office throughout. They were used by the police to gain entry, and were later brandished on Crimewatch as the set of keys that had disappeared. A police officer held up the set of keys the police couldn't find, showed them to the camera and asked viewers if anyone knew where they were.

 

[su5ie]

On the question of the car outside 123SR, the only scenario that fits with WJ's account is if SJL left with the 37SR keys, but drove not to 37SR, but to 123SR. Here she instantly switched cars, making WJ's sighting possible. She may or may not have then gone to 37SR driven by someone else (although if she were driven to 37SR by A N Other, the reports of her waiting outside make no sense; she and the supposed client arrived at the same time, in the same car).

This someone did her harm, but did not know if her colleagues knew where she had gone. If she had told them she was off to 37SR, OK, it would certainly be visited. But if she had not - well, why gift the police the information about 37SR? Why not return to her car and remove from it all evidence of any intended visit to 37SR? - the sales details, the keys, etc. If nobody has a clue where she went, where do the police start looking for her? Hopeless. So SJL drove the car there, but someone else came back later, opened it, ransacked it for evidence then left. Had she not left that diary note, the police would have no idea where she had gone until her car was found at the red herring location of 123SR at 10pm. This would have been a useful delay and decoy.

It's not a foolproof plan. Presumably the police could have had Sturgis identify what one set of house keys was missing. That would tell them which keys she probably had, and would have led them to 37SR eventually. By that time, though, recollections of who had seen what would be fading. The really clever thing would have been if the keys were apparently somehow not missing. If there's another set still in the office, it would cast doubt on whether she ever went to 37SR.

This is my view too and the only narrative that fits with Wendy's sighting and BMW spotted double parked outside 37SR and of course the elusive keys and house details being missing from suzy's car and passenger door being locked .

I like your observation of newspaper photos of 37SR and door seemingly not damaged .I wonder was a back window opened to allow air to circulate the house if it was empty .there would not necessarily need to be back entrance as HR could have allowed a policeman climb over his back wall and enter property that way .

The big question in the above hypothesis is .why suzy did not drive to 37 SR instead of meeting client at 123 Stevenage to go in their car .
prehaps client said no parking available when she was on phone before leaving office and I'm sure phone boxes were located around Shorrolds to place a call .I will pick you up at only other Sturgis sign they could find but why keep up the pretence of going to 37SR and not just abduct suzy from the moment you have her in your car . This scenario would involve Wendy being the only witness to be correct and therefore relevant I tend to add more weight to her testimony as she was at her kitchen window

Do you think in the panic and as you say groupthink that prehaps the number of keys for 37SR weren't particularly noted by police at the time as the diary entry was held to a higher esteem and more of a priority as it pinpointed a possible last known location so a search could begin from there and with everyone looking towards that direction. Nobody took note of anything else that may have seemed out of place .everyone looked inside the box and forgot to look underneath the box so to speak .

 

[su5ie]

DV's hypothesis is that there was no missing set of keys and they were seen again. They remained in the office throughout. They were used by the police to gain entry, and were later brandished on Crimewatch as the set of keys that had disappeared. A police officer held up the set of keys the police couldn't find, showed them to the camera and asked viewers if anyone knew where they were.

I must actually watch that again because if it was the actual set of keys held up that is a massive oversight and not groupthink but groupstupid

 

[su5ie]

IMO DV is right to point out that there are some oddities around the keys, which I don't think have been bottomed out.

If it is correct that SJL took the keys, then clearly she took the only set Sturgis had. This would have made any search of 37SR by colleagues impossible until entry was forced, or another set was obtained. It's not clear to me that MG or anyone would have rung the client in the ME about this instantly. As an agent, losing the property keys makes you look like a buffoon, and you're not going to own up to this until you're 100% sure that's what you are.

I'm not sure you could have got around the back of 37SR to effect entry. The rear of the property is now a gated mews development sandwiched between the backs of two terraces. IHNI how long that has been there. You'd need to find a 1986 London A-Z to know.

So how the police actually got in seems like it would have been complicated enough for someone to note down at the time how it was done. Instead, any discussion is entirely absent from the usual records. AS says nothing about it but does mention that the police broke SJL's own door down. Why didn't they break down 37SR? If they had some cunning way of getting into 37SR that left no damage - a detail that DV notes from the newspaper photos printed within a day or two - why didn't they use that same way to get into her flat?

What he's arguing is essentially a massive outbreak of groupthink. As I read DV, the police used keys given them by Sturgis to get in, and failed to twig that this was the only set. Witnesses described her taking the keys, but per DV they didn't actually see her doing this, they only assumed she did because they assumed a viewing. MG is inconsistent as to whether he was at his desk or not when she left. Are these people remembering what she did at 12.40, or what she did at some other time that they assume was at 12.40? DV I think reckons the police believe she went to 37SR, and have groupthinked their way to believing they have witnesses confirmatory of HR. But HR said he heard people coming out of 37. If this is true, she had the keys, yet neither she nor "Mr Kipper" left a trace of any visit inside (if JC's prints had been found, we'd 100% know all about it). How is that possible? Sure, "Mr Kipper" could walk around with his hands in his pockets touching nothing, but how was he going to stop SJL touching door handles, light switches, banister rails, and the like? If she did not go inside, why would she have taken the keys anyway, having no intention of going inside?

It could all be irrelevant, and for his PoW theory to stack up, DV needs to debunk WJ and BW as well as to undermine CV / KH. Even if he's right about the keys it doesn't make him right about the PoW. In passing though the police apparently think she went on to do another viewing, presumably at 123SR. How did they think she was getting in there? Is there yet another set of keys in play?

I wonder why DV didn't hold Sturgis staff under the same suspicion as a relatively new stand in landlord at the PoW. If he felt suzy never took the keys and staff state she did does this not conflict with his hypothesis of suzy using 37SR as a cover

 

[Cherwell]

There may have been another keyholder. I'd think it quite likely that if the owner was living abroad he would leave a set of keys with a friend (or as someone suggested, cleaner) so that they could periodically check that all was in order, and forward any important mail. You wouldn't rely on an estate agent to do that, it's not their job, but you would probably tell them who else had keys.

 

[Officer Dibble]

And is this the same pss that doesn't use her celebrity status to highlight suzys case

I don't know who PSS is

 

[Officer Dibble]

The red flags for me against it being a unknown perpetrator. If suzy was accosted on Whittingstall Road. Would she not have dropped her belongings from her hands in a struggle to get her in her car or other car. Would a perp pick them up off the ground if he was trying to avoid being seen ? .paper may blow away but not a key with a large fob and it clearly stated Sturgis so would someone not hand it in even if they didn't know suzy was missing?

In the crimewatch reconstruction it shows suzy leaving the office with house details and 37SR keys in her left hand and purse and her own keys in right hand you would surely panic release the items from your clutch if you were being forced into a car even with a weapon. The only way you would get in without dropping them and have time to place purse in side pocket of door is if perp was hiding in back seat or it was someone known to suzy waiting at her car . But that doesn't explain passenger door locked

If something happened at pow ,why would suzy bring 37SR details and keys into pub surely she would just leave them on the seat . And why was no solid forensic evidence retrieved from car I get that perp could use gloves but why bother removing these and not suzys purse . I feel the purse was already in the car from that morning. How many times have us ladies done this shove it in side door and leave it there ? But still doesn't explain missing items ?

If she was abducted from Stevenage or Shorrolds by an unknown perp would the paperwork and key still not be either in the car or in 37SR or on the ground. Would Wendy or HR not hear a struggle?

I definitely feel the person responsible was well known to suzy she trusted them . And I wouldn't rule out Sturgis staff so lightly I think it's an angle worth looking at . Thus far no other scenario has thrown up anything and this is an area that has been glossed over as everyone takes the staff at their word .For me a large portion of the population is capable of lying and covering up a murder they just need a big enough reason and the right set of circumstances . Was there a bin collection that morning? Was there an area at the back of Sturgis an alleyway for storage of rubbish ?

I've always wanted to know more regarding the Sturgis staff. JMO MOO