UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #7

[Pinkizzy]

She left Sturgis Estate Agents at 12.40 for an appointment with Mr Kipper

Suzy Lamplugh case 'still active' 35 years on

In the Footsteps of Killers release date: Emilia Fox to present Channel 4 documentary

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[Knitty]

Please continue here.

 

[WestLondoner]

You wouldn't need to faff about in the front of a Fiesta to look in the boot. You would just open the boot.

 

[su5ie]

You wouldn't need to faff about in the front of a Fiesta to look in the boot. You would just open the boot.

You would think !! My guessing is they didn't have the keys and the boot was only accessible with those ,some car boots are opened by a lever in the car but AS states the police officer gingerly lifted the back shelf to see if suzy was in the boot .I will find the page in the book so we have a reference. I don't know at what stage police noticed suzys car seat pushed back . I can't discern from the following whether it was before or after checking boot as the author uses the words 'by now" prehaps someone else can understand it better

 

[Kasparthecat1]

I'm new here, so please be gentle!
I'm a shortish female of 5"4" so slightly shorter than Suzy. I always push the car seat right back simply in order to get out of the vehicle. I assume that's what Suzy would have done too, although there may be other mundane reasons why the seat was pushed back. The notion that the seat was pushed back therefore a man MUST have been driving seemed to enter the zeitgeist of the investigation at a very early stage if AS's account posted above is accurate.

What happened to the evidence that was collected? I understand that there wasn't much as the interior was mainly plastic, but that a palm print was found on the drivers' mirror?

I also wonder whether the bar under the driver's seat (probably metal) was examined for prints.

 

[WestLondoner]

Hi Kasparthecat

Welcome to the thread.

You're right to question this sort of detail. It is one of those things that gets cemented into the narrative but probably shouldn't.

SJL was 5-6 and Kipper was described as 5-8, as is John Cannan. If they are the same person he would not have needed to move the seat at all from her preferred position to drive the car, so the fact it was moved suggests this was not done to enable anyone of Cannan's height to drive. It would be helpful to have known if SJL was in the same habit as you of moving the seat to get out.

The guess I favour is that she drove the car there alone and parked in sloppy way intending to be out of there again in a few seconds - the passenger door was locked and her purse in the door pocket. Someone else may have returned to the car later to remove items that may have indicated where she had been. This would explain the disappearance of the property particulars.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

I hadn't considered the possibility of someone else returning to the car to remove property particulars and perhaps the key, if indeed she'd taken it with her. Perhaps they were on the passenger seat. That someone could well have missed the purse, tucked away in the map pocket.

I'm also of the opinion that Suzy drove herself to Stevenage Road and was alone.

 

[WestLondoner]

An interesting coincidence here is that the posh riverside flats were on at prices from £130k which is about the same as 37 Shorrolds (128k). It seems feasible that she went to 37SR, "Kipper" says something like "God, what a dump - got anywhere smarter on the books at this money?" and they then head to Stevenage Road without ever going inside 37SR.

What then happened is of course unclear, but the place and manner of stopping the car suggests a very brief stop was intended.

 

[Konstantin]

An interesting coincidence here is that the posh riverside flats were on at prices from £130k which is about the same as 37 Shorrolds (128k). It seems feasible that she went to 37SR, "Kipper" says something like "God, what a dump - got anywhere smarter on the books at this money?" and they then head to Stevenage Road without ever going inside 37SR.

What then happened is of course unclear, but the place and manner of stopping the car suggests a very brief stop was intended.

This is an interesting point, because usually you want to look at a certain type of property that is in your price range -- so say 2 bed houses up to £X. Shorrolds was good for what? A family home as it was large, or chopping into bedsits if you are a developer/landlord. Kipper seemed like a young chap, what did he tell her he was after? Did he just pick that house to view? When I have used estate agents I've told them what we are interested in.

If Kipper just called up out of the blue and said I want to view this specific house at lunchtime -- it was empty anyway -- I could see him using the ruse you suggest to get SJL to take him to another location, such as those flats -- which were of interest to the police and to SJL's mother.

 

[WestLondoner]

@ kaspar

FYI, the three most informative books to read about this case are The Suzy Lamplugh Story, by Andrew Stephen (herein "AS"); Prime Suspect, by Christopher Berry-Dee ("CBD"); and Finding Suzy, by David Videcette ("DV"). That's also actually quite a good order in which to read them.

AS sets out the facts as known before Cannan's name came into the picture, including much information about SJL's family and romantic background; CBD sets out Cannan's criminal history; DV goes back to basics and questions how Cannan was ever associated with the case, given there is no evidence he ever met SJL or was in Fulham that day - this last being the CPS' reason for refusing to charge him in 2000/1.

There is no good TV documentary on this case, as all of them start with the supposition that SJL was murdered by Cannan, and consider no other possibility. Probably a condition of police assistance making the documentary is that they don't challenge the police's preferred version; this compromises all of them.

This case feels like it should have been soluble in 1986. Nobody checked whether any sexual offenders had recently been released from the three nearby male prisons - Wormwood, Brixton, and Wandsworth. Had they done so, a list of possibles could have been assembled, and those on it required to account for themselves. This would have exposed Cannan if this was him.

A man was reported with SJL in a dark-coloured LHD BMW. There weren't that many of these in the country, so tracing them was a manageable task that might well have led to Cannan.

If SJL was abducted, then she was taken somewhere nearby. No effective effort was made to find out where else her car or any BMW might have gone; an inconvenient sighting of SJL by someone who knew her was handwaved away as probably the wrong day.

Inconsistencies in the various witness statements weren't properly bottomed out, with the result that at the end of the investigation, all the police knew of her movements was that she left the office at about 12.40.

It still seems extraordinary that someone can just disappear off the street without trace.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

This is an interesting point, because usually you want to look at a certain type of property that is in your price range -- so say 2 bed houses up to £X. Shorrolds was good for what? A family home as it was large, or chopping into bedsits if you are a developer/landlord. Kipper seemed like a young chap, what did he tell her he was after? Did he just pick that house to view? When I have used estate agents I've told them what we are interested in.

If Kipper just called up out of the blue and said I want to view this specific house at lunchtime -- it was empty anyway -- I could see him using the ruse you suggest to get SJL to take him to another location, such as those flats -- which were of interest to the police and to SJL's mother.

Yes I wondered what sort of interest "Kipper" could have had in such a property as Shorrolds. On googling, it appears that the house is now indeed in flats. I'd always imagined Kipper as something of a Yuppie, and more interested in something new springing up along the Thames for a similar price than Shorrolds.

 

[lee sumner]

I hadn't considered the possibility of someone else returning to the car to remove property particulars and perhaps the key, if indeed she'd taken it with her. Perhaps they were on the passenger seat. That someone could well have missed the purse, tucked away in the map pocket.

I'm also of the opinion that Suzy drove herself to Stevenage Road and was alone.

i dont beieve suzy was ever on stevenage rd, but i think she went to 37 shorrolds rd with mr kipper. the mystery starts when she viewed shorrolds rd. i believe she did, but where did she go from there. she was lured some where. did she think she was going to value a property and instead she was snatched.

 

[lee sumner]

I hadn't considered the possibility of someone else returning to the car to remove property particulars and perhaps the key, if indeed she'd taken it with her. Perhaps they were on the passenger seat. That someone could well have missed the purse, tucked away in the map pocket.

I'm also of the opinion that Suzy drove herself to Stevenage Road and was alone.

i dont beieve suzy was ever on stevenage rd, but i think she went to 37 shorrolds rd with mr kipper. the mystery starts when she viewed shorrolds rd. i believe she did, but where did she go from there. she was lured some where. did she think she was going to value a property and instead she was snatched.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

@ kaspar

FYI, the three most informative books to read about this case are The Suzy Lamplugh Story, by Andrew Stephen (herein "AS"); Prime Suspect, by Christopher Berry-Dee ("CBD"); and Finding Suzy, by David Videcette ("DV"). That's also actually quite a good order in which to read them.

AS sets out the facts as known before Cannan's name came into the picture, including much information about SJL's family and romantic background; CBD sets out Cannan's criminal history; DV goes back to basics and questions how Cannan was ever associated with the case, given there is no evidence he ever met SJL or was in Fulham that day - this last being the CPS' reason for refusing to charge him in 2000/1.

There is no good TV documentary on this case, as all of them start with the supposition that SJL was murdered by Cannan, and consider no other possibility. Probably a condition of police assistance making the documentary is that they don't challenge the police's preferred version; this compromises all of them.

This case feels like it should have been soluble in 1986. Nobody checked whether any sexual offenders had recently been released from the three nearby male prisons - Wormwood, Brixton, and Wandsworth. Had they done so, a list of possibles could have been assembled, and those on it required to account for themselves. This would have exposed Cannan if this was him.

A man was reported with SJL in a dark-coloured LHD BMW. There weren't that many of these in the country, so tracing them was a manageable task that might well have led to Cannan.

If SJL was abducted, then she was taken somewhere nearby. No effective effort was made to find out where else her car or any BMW might have gone; an inconvenient sighting of SJL by someone who knew her was handwaved away as probably the wrong day.

Inconsistencies in the various witness statements weren't properly bottomed out, with the result that at the end of the investigation, all the police knew of her movements was that she left the office at about 12.40.

It still seems extraordinary that someone can just disappear off the street without trace.

Thank you so much for posting. I've actually read all of these, and watched as many documentaries as I can find, of varying quality. I remember the case pretty well as I was around Suzy's age when she went missing. There is so much to get your head around it's bewildering. I got interested in the case when I was at a loose end with no work and found DV's account. Along with most of the population, I had always assumed Kipper was the person responsible for whatever happened.

Each book I found interesting for different reasons. DV's I feel is rather sensationalist but a cracking read. I find though that he bigs up certain elements of what he think happened in order to create his narrative which I find somewhat far-fetched.

AS's I found interesting because it gives an account of Suzy herself and her family and does not include JC as a suspect. I had no idea the extent to which the family tried to control the way the investigation was run, including appointing David Napley as their solicitor within a couple of days of Suzy going missing. I remember DL being all over the media for ages - my mother couldn't bear to watch her and would switch the telly off when she came on, which was pretty often. God only knows what AS had to leave out of that book...

CBD's I enjoyed - if that's the word - as an account of JC and his crimes, including the murder of SB.

I noticed that there were some discrepancies between eg CBD and DV's accounts eg DV has JC leaving the prop hire company with glowing reference and CBD has him sacked and leaving in disgrace.

I've also read pretty much all the threads on here and people's thoughts on the matter. It's endlessly fascinating and yet we have so little which we know for sure.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

i dont beieve suzy was ever on stevenage rd, but i think she went to 37 shorrolds rd with mr kipper. the mystery starts when she viewed shorrolds rd. i believe she did, but where did she go from there. she was lured some where. did she think she was going to value a property and instead she was snatched.

I initially thought that SJL had indeed met with Kipper at SR37 and followed him in her own car to SR, pulling up immediately behind him thus overlapping the Mahons' garage. She pushed the seat back in order to exit the vehicle, and got out momentarily to speak with the driver of the car in front. She was suddenly overcome and bundled into his vehicle, perhaps at knifepoint or gunpoint and driven somewhere. Why leave the handbrake off though? And this is happening in broad daylight? Makes no sense, especially if there are workmen close by (not sure how close they were) and people likely to be about.

I think, on reflection, the car was indeed dumped by someone else. But as to what else happened that day - not a clue!

 

[Terryb808]

I initially thought that SJL had indeed met with Kipper at SR37 and followed him in her own car to SR, pulling up immediately behind him thus overlapping the Mahons' garage. She pushed the seat back in order to exit the vehicle, and got out momentarily to speak with the driver of the car in front. She was suddenly overcome and bundled into his vehicle, perhaps at knifepoint or gunpoint and driven somewhere. Why leave the handbrake off though? And this is happening in broad daylight? Makes no sense, especially if there are workmen close by (not sure how close they were) and people likely to be about.

I think, on reflection, the car was indeed dumped by someone else. But as to what else happened that day - not a clue!

Welcome to the thread.
You’re no different to everyone else, we all have opinions, but no real concrete evidence.
I’m of the opinion that the general belief that SJL disappeared without trace is untrue.
I think there are witnesses who saw her with Mt Kipper, it’s just a case of pinpointing the right ones and the key timeline.
However, even when you achieve this, you’ll still not know for sure who Mr Kipper was and what he did with SJL.

 

[RosalindaA]

I'm pleased to announce that John Cannan is dead and hopefully on his way straight to hell. I'm not convinced that he was Suzy's killer but so glad for the sake of his other victims and their families that they don't have to worry about him being paroled:
Suzy Lamplugh prime murder suspect dies in prison

 

[Kasparthecat1]

Must've just come through. Just seen it on a Bristol website. Thanks for the heads-up.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I wonder if his death will evoke new found interest in the case of SJL?

 

[Dotta]

"John Cannan dead: ​

Prime suspect in Suzy Lamplugh's murder ​

takes his secrets to the grave,"​

Prime suspect for Suzy Lamplugh's murder dies in jail aged 70

Convicted killer John Cannan was jailed for a minimum of 35 years in 1989 for the rape and murder of Bristol newlywed Shirley Banks.

www.dailymail.co.uk