GUILTY UK - Tia Sharp, 12, New Addington, London, 3 Aug 2012 #2

[wfgodot]

So, with this thought, we are waiting for this specialist to return from his Outer Hebridies holiday? It was Saturday they paused it and we are now Monday evening. They are saying that it is expected to continue later in the week. This could of course be in 10 minutes, but if he caught the first plane out from the other side of the world he would have been back here latest this morning.

I'm thinking they just don't want to issue their findings yet.......but then I can't think why.

Not sure. I can't recall another case delayed at this point. Nat Carey does have the pull to shut down proceedings till he gets there, though. Big name - possibly the biggest since the great Bernard Spilsbury.

 

[Inge Jones]

They may be simply wanting to chill her down a bit more before continuing. It will reduce the odor and preserve her longer.

 

[MobyBluff]

Not sure. I can't recall another case delayed at this point. Nat Carey does have the pull to shut down proceedings till he gets there, though. Big name - possibly the biggest since the great Bernard Spilsbury.

In bold....really? Is that true, that a Pathologist can pull rank on another?

 

[squish]

Thank you TykeyTrouble for your reply, I imagined that she may have been hit over the head only once or twice and serious damage occurring (ie unconscious, so no noise or screaming), then SH or CS panicking and killing her.

Either way, the bruising would indicate a beating or fight, the smothering could either be to "finish the job" or an attempt to stifle her screams which unintentionally suffocated her. I reckon CS lashed out at her and SH tried to keep her quiet and inadvertently killed her.

 

[wfgodot]

In bold....really? Is that true, that a Pathologist can pull rank on another?

Just a guess on my part.

 

[laurauk1]

Re: the funfair story (and I'm not sure I believe they did go there but) maybe they went to the funfair, didn't say they were looking for a missing child and just paid to get in (if there was an entrance fee) or if not, just went in and wondered around. So perhaps the grandmother wasn't involved. In fact, thinking about, the funfairs I've been to in the UK, the majority wouldn't have an entrance fee so if you weren't planning on going on any rides there may not be a need to go to the ticket booth. As most are on empty land/fields, there wouldn't likely be CcTV there to confirm whether SH and CH did turn up there to lookc

 

[Pisces Cloud]

The police probably underestimated the murderers' stupidity. It's still incredible that SH and CS thought stashing a body in the loft was a decent hiding place. LE probably overlooked it because it was such an obvious place to dump a body.

That's why CS probably wasn't involved as much as what some people think, or else they'd have used her car to remove the body, IMO. I think SH put the body there in a hurry, thinking that he'd be able to move it later, but not banking on all the fuss that was going to occur. Also, I think some people are wrong to assume that this family are of low-intelligence when they're probably no less intelligent than most other people in the country. I'd imagine it's more to do with their upbringing that's caused the way they are today. No decent role-models or good guidance.

 

[Skigh]

Re: the funfair story (and I'm not sure I believe they did go there but) maybe they went to the funfair, didn't say they were looking for a missing child and just paid to get in (if there was an entrance fee) or if not, just went in and wondered around. So perhaps the grandmother wasn't involved. In fact, thinking about, the funfairs I've been to in the UK, the majority wouldn't have an entrance fee so if you weren't planning on going on any rides there may not be a need to go to the ticket booth. As most are on empty land/fields, there wouldn't likely be CcTV there to confirm whether SH and CH did turn up there to lookc

If they did do this why embellish the story with something which could actually be checked.
Why also did both of them go if Tia could have returned any minute.

Why not go and check with any of the neighbours if they had seen her,she had friends on the estate an obvious thing would be to see if she had met up with one of them.

I think they both knew that Tia would not be returning.

 

[squish]

People keep mentioning that in the TV interview, SH turned to the uncle for support when he forgot the location of the funfair. This doesn't mean that the uncle was in on the act - if the funfair was well known locally, it could have been more of a "oh where's that funfair again?" kind of thing, because it could have been well known enough for them to know how to travel there without a map but not recall the name of the place. So the uncle might not have suspected anything when he had to remind SH of the location.

You can say whatever you please. It's a sleuthing community which encourages opinions

My comment said I suspect he may be a police informant. That's my 'suspicion' of the moment amongst many others

It cannot be denied that he remained at liberty for a week with a child's body not far above his head as he slept, ate, etc. Police have admitted they did not handle the investigation well at all and have admitted to basic errors of judgement and procedure - all of which have been loudly criticised by ex senior Scotland Yard officers publicly, as you may be aware

It would be naive in the extreme to suggest that *IF* someone was known to be a valued informant, they would not be handled more 'gently' we might say, than someone who was not a police informant. And it does appear that police, deliberately or otherwise, have not been as aggressive in their handling of this case as we might have expected

The police would have been very conscious to not appear prejudiced/discriminatory towards the family due to their low social status, so that's probably why the police weren't as tough as necessary.

 

[Paulette]

Nice thinking. But I'm thinking they are already total specialists. i.e. Body dead. How did it die? Ok, it's not a bullet wound, over to you...?

This isn't sarcasm, I don't have the first clue how or whether they specialise, indeed you've got me thinking.....which is why I'm here.

RIP Tia

You'd think all ME's would be total specialists. We have a TV show called "Dr. G. Medical Examiner". This is the same woman that did the Cayley Anthony autopsy. Yes, they did real autopsys on real people as they told the story about the person's demise. After watching a few of her shows I understood that it's a procedure - 1st do A, 2nd do B, and so on. Visual inspection, major 1st cut, save bits of this and that. Everything is weighed and measured. How hard is that?

 

[MobyBluff]

If they did do this why embellish the story with something which could actually be checked.
Why also did both of them go if Tia could have returned any minute.

Why not go and check with any of the neighbours if they had seen her,she had friends on the estate an obvious thing would be to see if she had met up with one of them.

I think they both knew that Tia would not be returning.

My understanding is Tia was supposedly due home at 6 latest. By 7 the mother had been informed in person....a good half hour drive at 6pm on a Friday evening. It doesn't make sense because it is all a lie. You don't call the police if a young girl is one hour late home. Do you? And do you put a pizza in the oven expected her home at 6pm when that was the latest. The Grand mum lied. She knew Tia was dead. Do you put a pizza in the oven as proof that you expected her home? And then bolt off out of the house afterwards?

 

[user484]

That's why CS probably wasn't involved as much as what some people think, or else they'd have used her car to remove the body, IMO. I think SH put the body there in a hurry, thinking that he'd be able to move it later, but not banking on all the fuss that was going to occur. Also, I think some people are wrong in assuming that this family are of low-intelligence when they're probably no less intelligent than most other people in the country. I'd imagine it's more to do with their upbringing that's caused the way they are today. No decent role-models or good guidance.

These statements are slightly at odds with each other.

I'd still say SH is of low intelligence - see the language used in the interview and account of his life/criminal activities. Take for example, his use of the past tense when talking about TS - you don't need to be a genius to know that's probably not a great thing to do.

 

[laurauk1]

If they did do this why embellish the story with something which could actually be checked.
Why also did both of them go if Tia could have returned any minute.

Why not go and check with any of the neighbours if they had seen her,she had friends on the estate an obvious thing would be to see if she had met up with one of them.

I think they both knew that Tia would not be returning.

That's my point - could it be checked? From what I recall, the funfair owner/worker said she had not had anyone come to the gate to ask to look around for a lost child. Well maybe they wouldn't have had a need to go to the gate or even if they did, if there was no entrance fee they may not mention to anyone on the gate they were looking for a child. There would have been a lot of children there - some on their own, some in groups, some with family. If at that stage they were giving off the impression that Tia hadn't turned up at home and they thought she might have been running away/playing up by staying out late, well then they may not have felt it was necessarily to ask someone if they'd seen her.

Perhaps this was the impression SH or the grandmother (or both) wanted to give off - that Tia had dissapeared and could have just wondered off by choice. It certainly seems this is what they wanted to portray at first.

As for the grandmother, if she wasn't involved then perhaps the picture of Tia wondering off was for her benefit as much as for the police/media/public.

As for one of them staying at home incase she came back, well do we know who was at the house when she didn't reappear on Friday? Anyone else could have been there waiting for. Why would one of them have a need to stay?

 

[Lola]

My memory is very hazy here but I think I remember from the trial in the Jo yeates case, one of the pathologists giving evidence had some specialist knowledge in strangulation cases

good memory and in fact this article mentions that he found info after a THIRD post mortem exam http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-15334969

 

[Paulette]

Where was Christine when SH gave the interview and implicated her in going to the fun fair to look for Tia?

Perhaps she didn't have a clue that he'd said she was with him until she saw/heard the interview. Then why didn't she contact LE and tell the truth? That bothers me because I don't think she knew SH had killed Tia.

And, when she did confront him about the lie, he in turn lied to her.

 

[masekwm]

Couple of things:

1. At no point last week was the house under attended, the grandad never appeared with the family.

2. The grandmother nearly ran down some tv cameras was this just after the search on Wednesday?

3. Once this search had been carried was the grandfather thinking he had to keep up the search act so that the news would fade and he could then dump the body, unknown to him the body was found whilst he was wasted.

 

[Skigh]

My understanding is Tia was supposedly due home at 6 latest. By 7 the mother had been informed in person....a good half hour drive at 6pm on a Friday evening. It doesn't make sense because it is all a lie. You don't call the police if a young girl is one hour late home. Do you? And do you put a pizza in the oven expected her home at 6pm when that was the latest. The Grand mum lied. She knew Tia was dead. Do you put a pizza in the oven as proof that you expected her home? And then bolt off out of the house afterwards?

I agree with you about the pizza,they would have waited for her to return home before putting it in the oven.

Was it 7pm or nearer 8pm that they went to Tia's mothers house? Why drive there, why not phone and let her know and then wait in the house.
Was that the first communication with the mother -It could have been that Tia decided to return home after her shopping trip rather than go back to Grannys.

No one would leave the house without someone there in case she turned up.

 

[Cherwell]

Re: the funfair story (and I'm not sure I believe they did go there but) maybe they went to the funfair, didn't say they were looking for a missing child and just paid to get in (if there was an entrance fee) or if not, just went in and wondered around. So perhaps the grandmother wasn't involved. In fact, thinking about, the funfairs I've been to in the UK, the majority wouldn't have an entrance fee so if you weren't planning on going on any rides there may not be a need to go to the ticket booth. As most are on empty land/fields, there wouldn't likely be CcTV there to confirm whether SH and CH did turn up there to lookc

He went into too much detail though, because he mentioned speaking to people and being "let in". And I think in those circumstances you would ask lots of people if they'd seen a young girl on her own (she was quite small for her age).

 

[MobyBluff]

No, not once the putrefaction process is at its peak. Lots of chemical reactions going on. And she was in a hot loft and it's still warm weather.

Sorry I was trying to say that she has been "refrigerated" since Friday.....she should be cool now. Doesn't the cold atmosphere stall these chemical reactions which is why the body doesn't decompose as rapidly? Or does a body need to be chilled for more than 2 days before these chemical reactions slow down? A question, not sarcasm.

 

[graceholl]

BBC now reporting the 'smothering' theory

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19240104

ETA Which to me ties in with the theory that this was not pre meditated and that hiding the body in the loft was done out of sheer panic.