UK Whaley Bridge, Derbyshire: Farmer arrested over burglary shooting death

[bobbymkii]

A farmer is being questioned on suspicion of murder and attempted murder over the shooting of two men during a burglary in Derbyshire, the BBC understands.
Derbyshire Police was called to reports of a burglary in Eccles Road, in Whaley Bridge, at 01:20 BST on Wednesday.
Officers found a 19-year-old man with fatal gunshot wounds and another teen with a gunshot wound nearby.
A man in his 50s was held on suspicion of murder and attempted murder.
The man who died has been named locally as Marcus Smith, who lived nearby and played football for a local team.
A tribute has been shared on social media by a pub, where he appeared as a DJ.
The force said it was keeping an open mind about whether the incident was linked to a reported burglary at the property at about 15:30 BST on Tuesday.

Whaley Bridge: Farmer held over burglary shooting death

The man is being detained on suspicion of murder following the shooting, the BBC understands.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[bobbymkii]

I'm sure many of you don't need reminding, and it's still early on in the investigation. But so far, the circumstances of this case look identical to the famous Tony Martin case from 1999!

This could be a very contentious one if it gets as much publicity as the Martin case!

Tony Martin (farmer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sarahlou]

I think people should be allowed to defend themselves in their own home and not worry about getting charged with murder.

 

[Skigh]

Pictured: Divorcee dairy farmer who was arrested over fatal shooting

Rob Lomas, 50, (pictured) is being questioned on suspicion of murder after Marcus Smith, 19, was discovered dead at his property on Mosley Hall Farm in Whaley Bridge, Derbyshire.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Luwin]

I'm sure many of you don't need reminding, and it's still early on in the investigation. But so far, the circumstances of this case look identical to the famous Tony Martin case from 1999!

This could be a very contentious one if it gets as much publicity as the Martin case!

Tony Martin (farmer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Was racking my brains thinking of his name - thank you

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Pictured: Divorcee dairy farmer who was arrested over fatal shooting

Rob Lomas, 50, (pictured) is being questioned on suspicion of murder after Marcus Smith, 19, was discovered dead at his property on Mosley Hall Farm in Whaley Bridge, Derbyshire.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Aggravated burglary, from this article.

That would be the thing of nightmares for me, if I was living remotely.

What a waste

 

[Skigh]

Farmer 'gunned down burglar' after house raided twice in 10 hours

Derbyshire Constabulary confirmed officers had been called to reports of a burglary at the remote Peak District farmhouse at 3.30pm on Tuesday.

www.dailymail.co.uk

A farmer who allegedly shot dead a suspected teenage burglar had reported being robbed in another raid the day before, police said last night.

Derbyshire Constabulary confirmed officers had been called to reports of a burglary at the remote Peak District farmhouse at 3.30pm on Tuesday.

They attended the property, on a remote country lane, in Whaley Bridge, Derbyshire, and launched an investigation.

That was ongoing when reports came in of the second raid at the farmhouse less than ten hours later, at around 1.20am the following day.

A police spokesman said they were 'keeping an open mind' as to whether the two incidents were linked.

 

[Luwin]

Whaley Bridge: Two further arrests after burglary shooting death

Derbyshire Police confirmed two further arrests were made in relation to the death of Marcus Smith.

www.bbc.co.uk

Two more people have been arrested in connection with the shooting of two men during a burglary in Derbyshire.
Police said on Friday two men had been arrested after reports of a burglary in Eccles Road, Whaley Bridge, at 01:20 BST on Wednesday.
A man in his 30s was arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to commit burglary and remains in custody.
Another man in his late teens was arrested on suspicion of assisting an offender.
The force also confirmed a man found at the scene with fatal gunshot wounds was Marcus Smith, 19.
A farmer in his 50s is being questioned on suspicion of murder and attempted murder, with officers being given further time to question the man.

 

[bobbymkii]

Whaley Bridge: Two further arrests after burglary shooting death

Derbyshire Police confirmed two further arrests were made in relation to the death of Marcus Smith.

www.bbc.co.uk

Two more people have been arrested in connection with the shooting of two men during a burglary in Derbyshire.
Police said on Friday two men had been arrested after reports of a burglary in Eccles Road, Whaley Bridge, at 01:20 BST on Wednesday.
A man in his 30s was arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to commit burglary and remains in custody.
Another man in his late teens was arrested on suspicion of assisting an offender.
The force also confirmed a man found at the scene with fatal gunshot wounds was Marcus Smith, 19.
A farmer in his 50s is being questioned on suspicion of murder and attempted murder, with officers being given further time to question the man.

The similarities between this and the Tony Martin case are insane!

 

[LadyL]

well I hope the charges are dropped
he was robbed the day before and probably very on edge
why would they go back (if it was the same ones the day before)
I guess they thought it was an easy mark

 

[61Montcalm]

I know this part of Derbyshire very well and have family from my country who live near Whaley Bridge. The countryside is stunningly beautiful but at night time those country lanes are absolutely pitch black making a remote farmhouse or home an easy target for burglars from nearby Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester. I think this poor farmer was just defending his property. So sad that the young lad lost his life at 19, but then he shouldn't be trespassing on a farm and trying to rob the farmer. Perhaps someone in the UK can chime in here - is it legal there for a farmer to defend their property with a gun? I do know that in the UK a farmer can legally shoot and kill an aggressive dog that is terrorising livestock by chasing.

 

[Sarahlou]

I know this part of Derbyshire very well and have family from my country who live near Whaley Bridge. The countryside is stunningly beautiful but at night time those country lanes are absolutely pitch black making a remote farmhouse or home an easy target for burglars from nearby Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester. I think this poor farmer was just defending his property. So sad that the young lad lost his life at 19, but then he shouldn't be trespassing on a farm and trying to rob the farmer. Perhaps someone in the UK can chime in here - is it legal there for a farmer to defend their property with a gun? I do know that in the UK a farmer can legally shoot and kill an aggressive dog that is terrorising livestock by chasing.

Yes if the situation required that to defend yourself. You have to prove it was reasonable and necessary to defend yourself in that way.

 

[Luwin]

Whaley Bridge: Farmer bailed after burglary shooting death

The farmer was held on suspicion of murder and attempted murder after the shooting in Whaley Bridge.

www.bbc.co.uk

A farmer arrested on suspicion of murder and attempted murder over the shooting of two men during a burglary has been bailed.

 

[bobbymkii]

Both victim and suspect have online fundraisers on the go at the same time. I'm sure it's not a competition, but if it was then the farmer is winning so far!

Marcus Smith - £13,022 (as of this post)
(https://www..com/f/n9ndh-marcus-smith)
Rob Lomas - £53,107 (as of this post)
https://www..com/f/freethefarmer

 

[MarziPanda]

is it legal there for a farmer to defend their property with a gun?

RSBM

In most cases, no. In the UK, you can't just shoot someone because they're robbing you. You can only use 'reasonable force' to defend yourself, which I think is fair. Your actions have to be proportionate to the threat you're facing.

Unless this man's life was actually in danger, such as the robbers being armed and actively threatening his life, then this was murder. If, for example, he shot them from behind, or shot one of them as he was running (which anyone would, seeing someone else get shot first, surely?) then it's murder, because they aren't a threat to you at that point. If it was murder in the eyes of UK law, then I hope he gets convicted as such. You cannot kill someone just for robbing you.

It is quite right imo that he was arrested under suspicion of murder until the police have enough information to either charge him or let him go.

 

[seasideForest]

Perhaps someone in the UK can chime in here - is it legal there for a farmer to defend their property with a gun? I do know that in the UK a farmer can legally shoot and kill an aggressive dog that is terrorising livestock by chasing.

RSBM for focus.
I'm no longer in the UK, but I would say there's much less idea of and support for the idea of: grab a gun or other lethal weapon and defend your property than seems to be the case in the US. It has to be proportional to the danger. I don't have any examples to hand but there have been cases of elderly people in their 80's in the UK putting burglars to flight with their bare hands or their walking sticks so you can't argue that only a gun will get a burglar of your property.

Shooting and killing a dog terrorising livestock is a different kettle of fish, firstly a dog isn't a human and secondly a dog terrorising e.g. sheep at lambing time can bring farmers close to financial ruin. Note: I like animals including dogs, but in the eyes of probably most countries' laws their life value is not equal to a human's.

Isolated farmhouses - there always have been these in various parts of the UK e.g. in areas of Scotland. Nothing new.

I'm sad for the farmer but there's no proof as yet that it was the same burglars the second time. And even if there were proof, I personally feel it's important to uphold especially this type of law (life/death situation) and not take it into your own hands. MOO

 

[Sarahlou]

If burglars don't want to risk getting killed they should really quit breaking into people's properties.
I've seen pretty much nothing but support for the farmer.
I don't see how anyone can expect someone to not defend themselves when confronted with two strange men in their house in the middle of the night. We don't know the full details but what if he saw them walking towards him with knives?

 

[seasideForest]

If burglars don't want to risk getting killed they should really quit breaking into people's properties.

I don't see how anyone can expect someone to not defend themselves when confronted with two strange men in their house in the middle of the night. We don't know the full details but what if he saw them walking towards him with knives?

RSBM
I don't personally agree with breaking into other people's houses or stealing anything for that matter, but catching somebody red-handed doing one of those doesn't give any of us the right to take that person's life. Not even the state (or the Crown or whatever) does that. No capital punishment in the UK.

I suppose that the burglars think they're so clever or invincible or something that they won't be attacked in any way. In the UK and a number of other European countries plus Canada and Australia, they are much less likely to run into a home-occupier with a gun.

Yes, I agree, we don't know the full details but until we do know the burglars had knives or other lethal weapons, I'm not sure if it makes any sense to be arguing as if this were a case in the US, because it isn't. MOO

This case reminds me of the case of Colton Boushie in Saskatchewan (Canada), which is here on Websleuths. The farmer was acquitted, maybe the farmer in this case will be too, but he certainly needs to be tried in the normal way imho rather than just in the court of public opinion. I personally still do not think it is OK to take the law into your own hands for a burglary. To protect yourself or someone else from (attempted) murder or rape, yes.

@Sarahlou I don't think we're going to agree on this case in England. It's OK to have differing opinions. As a Brit, tho no longer resident, I also feel OK about arguing for the side of law in this case, until we have further information on mitigating circumstances for the farmer (e.g. the burglars had knives). I wouldn't write this on a thread for an American case because I'm mindful that many Americans seem to see this differently, have a different mindset about and traditions of gun usage.
MOO JMO

 

[MarziPanda]

If burglars don't want to risk getting killed they should really quit breaking into people's properties.
I've seen pretty much nothing but support for the farmer.
I don't see how anyone can expect someone to not defend themselves when confronted with two strange men in their house in the middle of the night. We don't know the full details but what if he saw them walking towards him with knives?

Someone breaking into your house does not give you the right to kill them. At least in the UK. As stated above, I don't think there's any point in arguing this case like it's a US case. The UK law is clear that if these burglars were not threatening his life, then this is murder. If they were threatening his life (at all the moments when he shot them) then it's not murder. The police/jury will decide.

 

[dunkley]

In a very simplistic way - if the intruders are coming *towards* you, armed, and you shoot them in the chest, that *could* be judged 'proportionate'. If they are running *away* carrying your 54" television, and you shoot them in the back - unlikely. Or, like Tony Martin, it appears your gun can shoot round corners ....
[Any possible firearms offences notwithstanding. ie, loaded and unsecured shotgun]