Unadopting a Child...

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michelle said:
I never said that I dont feel sorry or bad for him. All I am saying is I dont blame the woman for her choice. He is 15 from what the article says I believe, dont you think he is old enough to know that Molesting is Wrong! I mean I understand people being abused and thats all they know how to do but come on, he needs therapy and hopefully he can change. I am not blaming this woman for everything.

Obviously, sadly, he doesn't know it's wrong or he doesn't know how to stop. He needs help- big time, I'm not denying that!

I do not place all of the blame on the mother, umm, i mean the X-mother either. I blame lots of people for making him what he is, for doing to him what they did, for making this poor poor child into a victim at a young age.

This child was let down by many people. His biological parents, the foster care system, the shrinks @ the hospital he was in, and now on top of that.. the only mother he ever knew. Let's just pray her grandchildren (or whoever it was that he molested) don't end up abusing someone else because of what was done to them by the boy.. "mom" will throw them away too!

Our top job as parents is unconditional love for our children.
It seems the only "love" this kid got was while he was being molested. So in his screwed up mind, molestation probably isn't so bad.
 
OneLostGrl said:
This child's life while in foster care was hell and he thought he was done with that- thought he was loved... but now that he is thrown away, as usual, I bet he now will continue this behavior. I'm sure he is thinking "Why not?? No one loves me anyway".

Ya know all the stories we read here about infants and children being sexually abused? Why does everyone feel bad for them and not for what this poor kid obviously lived through? Don't get me wrong, as I said before, he needs to be out of the house getting help but he was an abused child once too!
Well, that kind of ignores the fact he was molesting children even while in a supposedly stable & loving atmosphere. Ever have any actual dealings with a sociopath? They will make you pay every day of your life for ever involving them in your world.
 
michelle said:
I think her fear that he may Molest other kids is why she is turning him out. I would not feel comfortable with him in my house around other kids either.

I wouldn't feel comfortable with him in my house around other kids either. But I wouldn't apply to relinquish the adoption. Someone else has suggested suing the State and getting him the help he needs - I agree because you just don't turn a child out after 6 years. That's what some people do with animals.
 
OneLostGrl said:
Our top job as parents is unconditional love for our children.
And I would go broke getting him help. But he would not be living under my roof because I'm not equipt to give that kind of help. Abandon him? Never. But allow him to hurt others? Never.
 
.....
Amraann said:
Divorcing your spouse in no way reflects the same as giving up your child.

Maybe some think so ... But I do not. Your child is your child and should come before anything. Adopted or birth child all the same. It is the same. I choose the child I raised since he was an infant, his victim. If I had gave birth to the sexual predator I would have done the same thing.

There is sooo much that could be said about this thread.

Lynda I hear what your saying. I think you did make the effort to get him help but I don't really agree with turning him back over.

The priority should always be the victim or victims. I think it is sick and disgusting when parents don't relinquish in situations like these.

Why should victim's be subjected to living with a rapist? Living next door to one? Or the parent of the victim visiting the rapist. The thought deeply disturbs me. I feel the same about women that don't leave the husband that's been victimizing her children. The victim needs to feel safe, secure and supported 100%. That's impossible when mommy is off visiting the offender, chatting on the phone, or is still living in the house.

You want to bring this kid home and provide him inhome victims & a whole new unsuspecting neighborhood.

This child could be put into a facility.
Everyone keeps posting about the danger this child poses to others..
Does the word supervision mean anything????
Most likely the only time this child felt loved was when he was molested.
As sad and as sick as that is.

That's not fair. I am certain the kid had a rotten life before his adoption and that's a shame. Love isn't enough. If he is anything like the one I had, he doesn't even know what love is. His emotions aren't real. His entire personality is a facade. Reactive attachment disorder is very real. This kid was ruined in his first years of life.
That was his positive attention.
As a parent she is responsible for keeping her other children safe and helping this one.
Its NOT one or the other. Putting this child in juvie hall is not a grand solution. Your only exposing him to more criminal ideas. I assure you, a residential treatment facility for juvenile sex offenders is equally guilty of that. Juvenile or adult, hard core sexual predators don't get better. They only get better at not getting caught!

Does no one understand this is a child just like that baby you all pray for on the other threads.
When does that notion change?? When he is an inconvenience?

I take serious issue as well to all those children who are of age and just left on their own.
Clearly many foster parents are not mimics of real parents when they stop getting the check.

I would take this child.

You would be a fool. And how would you feel when he molests one of your other children? What kind of message will that send to the child he victimizes?

I have 4 children and raised 3 others before them.
I would take him and ensure not only did he receive help but that my others were safe.

There are plenty just like him, sign up for the foster/adopt program and request one.

Would that be easy?? I doubt it. But that is parenting. You find a way to do it even if no one else has before you.

You have to sleep and shower sometime.

I am going to say this and I am sure to hear flack for it...... Children DO engage in sexual play.
I seriously doubt it was "sexual play". Children are not labeled SEXUAL PREDATORS for "playing" The kid's therapist obviously knows more about his condition than we do. I am equally certain he has more known victims. He just wasn't charged & convicted for his other crimes. That's why it isn't being reported.

one of us are comfortable with this. I certainly am not.
BUt it is a reality. Children are curious and it does not stop where we adults have drawn appropriate lines.
At what point do we call it molestation??

It's called molestation when threats, force, weapons, violence, objects, manipulation, preying on younger or weaker and sometimes grooming behaviors are present. Children are not labeled sexual predators for a rare occurrence of playing doctor.

Is it when one child is older? But maybe that child is severely emotionally imature?
I am NOT justifying this at all..
But I just mean this is what children do if left unsupervised.
The reality is parents should never leave children unattended that long.
ANY children.

That long? How long do you think it takes? The one I had would set the watch I gave him for 2am to do the things he did. He also took the opportunity when I showered.

You never know if the child yours is friends with has been exposed to these things or if they will bring up the "lets play Dr" topic.
Like Adults some may and some may not.
 
Linda7NJ said:
I think your views are very naive.
It's too BIG of a situation for any one of us to know the right answer in all situations.

Perhaps there is no right answer.
 
jilly said:
I don't believe this mother. Maybe when she first took him on as a foster child she was given limited info, but when she applied for adoption it was a whole new ball game and social services were obligated to give her complete details.

My parents similarly adopted my younger brother who had been in 6 foster homes by the time he was 18 months and they received a full report on his foster care and parents and this was back in the 60s when info was very limited. Plus it sounds like this woman was in the fostering business and she would have had the means to get more information imo.



I think she probably knew the kid had problems but thought she could deal with them. It wasn't until he was declared a "sexual predator" that her fostering income was cut off that she decided to turf him out.

I feel so sorry for this boy. Not only was his given up by his birth parents (which alone can affect any child) but he was subsequently turfed out of 5 other homes. Poor kid - won't give his consent - trying to hang on to this mother who doesn't want him. It breaks my heart. If she is such a great foster mother winning all these awards she wouldn't be choosing this path imo. Her income means more than this child. JMO.
Agencies are required by law to fully disclose all non identifying information. It doesn't mean they do. I assure you, I wasn't told mine was born addicted, his history of abuse, his history of sexual perpetration, the accurate number of homes and many other things.

The state receives $6,000 per child adopted from foster care. That's motivation to lie. The pressure is on to get these kids adopted. It's really a shame good hearted foster parents are often left in the dark.

About her income..........I don't know her situation or her heart.

Why should the parents that abused and neglected their children & had them removed and placed into foster care not have to pay a dime in support? Yet, this woman...a woman that has provided a home for many of these children have to pay? It just isn't right!

She should apply for adoption subsidy and use those funds to support this child or his Medicaid should pay for his "treatment"
 
Linda7NJ said:
Why should the parents that abused and neglected their children & had them removed and placed into foster care not have to pay a dime in support? Yet, this woman...a woman that has provided a home for many of these children have to pay? It just isn't right!I agree about the biological parents but I would think in reality most of these parents don't have the financial means and it would be impossible to collect.

She should apply for adoption subsidy and use those funds to support this child or his Medicaid should pay for his "treatment" I agree.


From personal experience, I also agree with you in that "This kid was ruined in his first years of life".
 
Linda7NJ said:
All of the experts that examined him told me "off the record" he was beyond help.

It's sad but true about some of these kids. I hope they warned whoever is caring for him now. He sounds like a true sociopath with his charming way of fooling people.
 
SewingDeb said:
It's sad but true about some of these kids. I hope they warned whoever is caring for him now. He sounds like a true sociopath with his charming way of fooling people.
It is scary isnt it?
 
Michelle age doesn't dictate knowing right from wrong.

Most likely emotionally after all of this abuse he is not like most 15 YO's
AndI think the sexual assault happend when he was 12.

Lynda thank you for posting.
I don't have it in me to think hateful things about this child.
I admire all you have done. I know you tried to get help for the boy you had.


I guess my question here is at what point do we stop having sympathy for these children?
At one time this was a young child being the object of abuse and clearly the system failed him.
Is the only option to throw him away? (which I disagree with)
Why is it not an option to seek help for him? It should have been done long ago and in light of the fact that DCF did not tell this women of his abuse she could not seek it for him.
But now she knows.
I think at this point there are two choices.
He is placed in a facility like a mental hospital. I think this type of abuse and reaction should qualify as a mental issue. (when caught young)

The other option is to just not even try and put him in JV hall and then prison why even ever let him out? If the world is going to give up on him he will no doubt harm others later.
To abandon him in my mind only means that she will not make it her problem.
But it will be someones problem in the future.
That needs to be addressed.
 
BillyGoatGruff said:
Well, that kind of ignores the fact he was molesting children even while in a supposedly stable & loving atmosphere. Ever have any actual dealings with a sociopath? They will make you pay every day of your life for ever involving them in your world.

BillyGoatGruff- Don't you realize that this child was messed up long before coming into this supposedly stable & loving atmosphere?

Also, I would like to point out to others on the thread that MANY kids are molested for years and no one even knows about it... why do we automatically assume the foster care system knew this kid was molested??? Perhaps they did- but also, perhaps they didn't?


I have come across more mentally ill people then I care to talk about, but...

Besides the fact that I myself am mentally ill- my Biological father was Schizophrenic, my mother has Borderline Personality Disorder, my Step father, in fact, had Antisocial personality disorder (previously called Psychopathic or Sociopathic personality disorder).

I know, sad, all the mental illness in one family but it is gentetic :crazy:! Thank goodness my stepfather was not my biological father! LOL

If you read back on one thread I posted on some time ago, my step father commited suicide and I had a lot of guilt because I felt him dying was the best thing he could have done for our family.

Anyway- I don't recall reading anything about this child having Anti Social personality disorder. Did I miss an article?!
 
GlitchWizard said:
And I would go broke getting him help. But he would not be living under my roof because I'm not equipt to give that kind of help. Abandon him? Never. But allow him to hurt others? Never.

I have stated the same in almost everyone of my responses to this thread!
 
OneLostGrl said:
BillyGoatGruff- Don't you realize that this child was messed up long before coming into this supposedly stable & loving atmosphere?

Also, I would like to point out to others on the thread that MANY kids are molested for years and no one even knows about it... why do we automatically assume the foster care system knew this kid was molested??? Perhaps they did- but also, perhaps they didn't?


I have come across more mentally ill people then I care to talk about, but...

Besides the fact that I myself am mentally ill- my Biological father was Schizophrenic, my mother has Borderline Personality Disorder, my Step father, in fact, had Antisocial personality disorder (previously called Psychopathic or Sociopathic personality disorder).

I know, sad, all the mental illness in one family but it is gentetic :crazy:! Thank goodness my stepfather was not my biological father! LOL

If you read back on one thread I posted on some time ago, my step father commited suicide and I had a lot of guilt because I felt him dying was the best thing he could have done for our family.

Anyway- I don't recall reading anything about this child having Anti Social personality disorder. Did I miss an article?!
Sociopathy isn't a mental illness. It's a personality disorder. He wasn't sexually experimenting with other children his own age, he was molesting children significantly younger than himself. At 15 you're dealing with a "mixed up kid", you talking about a predatory sexual sadist in training. "Fixing" him is no longer part of the equation. It's all about identification and making sure others aren't harmed.
 
BillyGoatGruff said:
Sociopathy isn't a mental illness. It's a personality disorder. He wasn't sexually experimenting with other children his own age, he was molesting children significantly younger than himself. At 15 you're dealing with a "mixed up kid", you talking about a predatory sexual sadist in training. "Fixing" him is no longer part of the equation. It's all about identification and making sure others aren't harmed.

BillyGoatGruff,

I'm sorry but I disagree and so does the DSM IV. Personality disorders are an Axis II mental disorder


"Personality Disorders
Common Characteristics-

Personality Disorders are mental illnesses that share several unique qualities. They contain symptoms that are enduring and play a major role in most, if not all, aspects of the person's life. While many disorders vacillate in terms of symptom presence and intensity, personality disorders typically remain relatively constant....
http://allpsych.com/disorders/personality/index.html


And Anti-social (Previously known as psychopathic and Sociopathic personality disorder) personality is a personality disorder.

"Antisocial Personality Disorder
Category
Personality Disorders

Etiology-

This disorder was previously known as both psychopathic and Sociopathic personality disorder. Like most personality disorders, there are many factors that may contribute to the development of symptoms. Because the symptoms are long lasting, the idea that symptoms begin to emerge in childhood or at least adolescence is well accepted. The negative consequences of such symptoms, however, may not show themselves until adulthood...
http://allpsych.com/disorders/personality/antisocial.html.



That being said, BillyGoatGruff- I never said this child was sexually experimenting with other children his own age. Amraann threw it in as a possiblity.

Him molestating the children did not happen when he was 15, it happened when he was 12.. He was still a child- A sick child that needs major help in a secure atmosphere, but still a child.


And again, I ask you- do you have a link that states that this kid has Anti-social personality disorder or in your own terms, that he is a psychopath?
Because I do not recall reading any such thing!
 
Linda7NJ- I feel for you and what you went through with the child you adopted and what your child is going through due to being his victim, but not every child has the same history nor the same outcome. Everything I have read about this child we are refering to in this particular thread does not seem to match what you went through with the child that you adopted. Again, I am so sorry that your family and your child was victimized- it is a horrible thing!
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I understand a lot of you want to believe that this child is beyond hope but that is not necessarally the case! Please, read this page- It offers quite a bit of information on Juvenile sex offenders.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/report_juvsex_offend/sum.html

I found the entire page interesting but I thought I'd snip this particular section and paste it here.

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Risk Assessment

Few empirical studies have investigated sexual reoffense rates among juveniles or risk factors associated with recidivism. Two retrospective studies that investigated the frequency of offenses prior to the referral offense found relatively high offense rates (Awad and Saunders, 1991; Fehrenbach et al., 1986).

Rates of recidivism. The results of research investigating recidivism after juveniles were referred for sex offenses typically reveal relatively low rates of sexual recidivism (8 to 14 percent) (Kahn and Chambers, 1991; Miner, Siekert, and Ackland, 1997; Rasmussen, 1999; Schram, Milloy, and Rowe, 1991; Sipe, Jensen, and Everett, 1998; Smith and Monastersky, 1986). The studies also find higher rates of nonsexual recidivism (16 to 54 percent). Methodological variations clearly influence recidivism rates (Prentky et al., 1997). Nevertheless, in an extensive review of studies investigating recidivism rates among juvenile sex offenders, Weinrott (1996, p. 67) noted: "What virtually all of the studies show, contrary to popular opinion, is that relatively few [juvenile sex offenders] are charged with a subsequent sex crime."

Factors associated with recidivism. Various studies have described characteristics identified in juveniles who have sexually offended. However, Weinrott (1998b) reported that very few characteristics have actually been empirically associated with sexual recidivism. He noted that these characteristics include the following: psychopathy, deviant arousal, cognitive distortions, truancy, a prior (known) sex offense, blaming the victim, and use of threat/force. Weinrott also reported that, contrary to common belief, factors such as social skills deficits, lack of empathy, or denial of offense or sexual intent either have not been empirically associated with sexual recidivism or have simply not been investigated. (This is not to say that interventions designed to address such factors, such as efforts to reduce social skills deficits or educate offenders about victim impact, are not effective in reducing sexual recidivism, only that there is no empirical evidence indicating they are effective.).....
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And another portion I found interesting-
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Treatment Approaches

Overview. Primary goals in the treatment of juveniles who have sexually offended have been defined variously as community safety (NAPN, 1993), helping juveniles gain control over their abusive behaviors and increase their prosocial interactions (Cellini, 1995), and preventing further victimization, halting development of additional psychosexual problems, and helping juveniles develop age-appropriate relationships (Becker and Hunter, 1997). To accomplish these goals, highly structured interventions are recommended (Morenz and Becker, 1995). Treatment approaches include individual, group, and family interventions. Although group therapy often is described as the treatment of choice and cotherapy teams also are recommended (NAPN, 1993), empirical evidence of the superiority of these approaches is lacking. Advantages and disadvantages of these approaches have been described elsewhere (e.g., Marshall and Barbaree, 1990; Henggeler, Melton, and Smith, 1992). The first step in treatment typically involves helping the juvenile accept responsibility for his or her behavior (Becker and Hunter, 1997). Recommended treatment content areas typically include sex education, correction of cognitive distortions (cognitive restructuring), empathy training, clarification of values concerning abusive versus nonabusive sexual behavior, anger management, strategies to enhance impulse control and facilitate good judgment, social skills training, reduction of deviant arousal, and relapse prevention (Becker and Hunter, 1997; Hunter and Figueredo, 1999; NAPN, 1993). Many other relevant interventions also have been documented. Leaders in the treatment field have argued that programs designed to focus exclusively on sex-offending behaviors are of limited value and have recommended a more holistic approach (Goocher, 1994).

Addressing deviant arousal. Most programs that address deviant arousal do so through covert sensitization, a treatment approach that teaches juveniles to interrupt thoughts associated with sex offending by thinking of negative consequences associated with abusive behavior (Becker and Kaplan, 1993; Freeman-Longo et al., 1994). Other techniques include various forms of behavioral conditioning and are much more invasive and aversive. Such techniques raise concerns regarding practicality, effectiveness, and/or ethics. Vicarious sensitization (VS) is a relatively new technique that involves exposing juveniles to audiotaped crime scenarios designed to stimulate arousal and then immediately showing a video that portrays the negative consequences of sexually abusive behavior. Preliminary research findings suggest VS may be an effective approach for reducing deviant arousal in juveniles who are sexually aroused by prepubescent children (Weinrott, Riggan, and Frothingham, 1997).

Involving families. Rasmussen (1999) argued that adequate family support can help reduce recidivism and that treatment programs that involve families are likely to be more effective than others that do not. As Gray and Pithers (1993) observed, however, families vary in terms of their motivation and ability to effectively facilitate their child's treatment. Gray and Pithers described strategies that can engage the cooperation of family members and reported approaches that parents found useful.
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Again, I know some do not agree with me but I think family involvement is an important factor in whether a child re-offends! I still firmly believe we cannot throw our children away... for any reason!
 
A friend of mine is a foster mother. She was very open with the agency about her own past, which included sexual abuse, and told them she did not think she could foster children who had been sexually abused as she was still in therapy dealing with her own issues. They lied to her and placed a child who had been severely sexually abused in her home; this child went on to act out and abuse another child at the daycare home she stayed at.
 
Amraann said:
Michelle age doesn't dictate knowing right from wrong.



I guess my question here is at what point do we stop having sympathy for these children?
At one time this was a young child being the object of abuse and clearly the system failed him.
Is the only option to throw him away? (which I disagree with)
Why is it not an option to seek help for him? It should have been done long ago and in light of the fact that DCF did not tell this women of his abuse she could not seek it for him.
But now she knows.
I think at this point there are two choices.
He is placed in a facility like a mental hospital. I think this type of abuse and reaction should qualify as a mental issue. (when caught young)

The other option is to just not even try and put him in JV hall and then prison why even ever let him out? If the world is going to give up on him he will no doubt harm others later.
To abandon him in my mind only means that she will not make it her problem.
But it will be someones problem in the future.
That needs to be addressed.
You know I really dont know when we stop having sympathy for these kids. Its terrible that they have been molested, and I feel really bad about that. My main concern though would be having them around others that they can do the same too. Thats why I said I dont blame the Foster mom for wanting him removed, ONLY if she really did not know. Now if she knew of his history and decided to take him in anyway then "give him back" I guess I would not agree with that. But if her claims are true and she did not know, I dont blame her. I have a hard time though believing that a 12 year old did not know that molesting a younger child is not wrong.:twocents:
 
michelle said:
You know I really dont know when we stop having sympathy for these kids. Its terrible that they have been molested, and I feel really bad about that. My main concern though would be having them around others that they can do the same too. Thats why I said I dont blame the Foster mom for wanting him removed, ONLY if she really did not know. Now if she knew of his history and decided to take him in anyway then "give him back" I guess I would not agree with that. But if her claims are true and she did not know, I dont blame her. I have a hard time though believing that a 12 year old did not know that molesting a younger child is not wrong.:twocents:
Basically, its not a question of having sympathy for them but once they have have actively crossed the line from victim to victimizer the only people who are capable of handling the situation so it does not escalate to the point of creating an extremely dangerous predator are professionals. Parents don't have the skills to realize when a budding psychopath is lying to their face or saying what they have learned is what adults want/need to hear from them.
This boy molested children when he was 12, and has been in therapy/treatment for it since then, but I seriously doubt it's working. If it was working, I doubt the adoptive mother would be trying to sever ties. If she was the biological mother I might have reservations, but she volunteered to take on the job--on what appears to be extremely faulty information.
My borhter and his wife spent several years fostering special needs children (mostly with severe physical problems). If the state handed them, say, a child with an impaired immune system and then neglected to inform them of the fact, they wouldn't have turned the child back, but if they didn't know what his problem was, how could they avoid exacerbating it?
 
When you have a child weather your own or you adopt this is no garantee.


I do blame her. SHe agreed to love and care for this child.
I did state earlier that I feel the state was wrong and she should be reembursed for that.
However that doesn't mitigate her obligations. As his mother she is now obligated and responsible for dealing with the situation.
Michelle I am not saying that she has to even keep him in her house.
I do however feel she has a moral responsibilty to get him the help he needs or put him in a hospital if need be.
Their are plenty of hospitals for menatlly ill children.

To abandon him and turn him back over to the state is a weak morally repungnant thing for her to do. She is taking the easy way out.
I really feel that someone acting on the boys behalf should sue DCF because of their not saying what happend to him he did not get treatment that much earlier. That definately is their fault and he suffered for it.
 

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