UPDATE Identity Confirmed As Caylee 12-19-2008 ME Info

[okiedokietoo]

If ME found trace evidence of drug or chemical in remains - hair - I don't think ME would be able to say as a fact that is what killed Caylee. Not sure ME tested hair - I think that is still being tested by FBI

 

[gitana1]

1)circumstantial evidence - leaves plenty of room for reasonable doubt

2)crime scene evidence - We do not know that evidence yet

3) actual examination of the body - Shows no physical damage to the body (sans toxicology)


Circumstantial is not enough to commit in most cases. Examination of the body shows no physical trauma, Caylee was not beaten prior, or during her death. Crime Scene evidence, may and probably links her to her home.

To me, and moo, they cannot rule out accidental or natural death.

I am NOT a KC supporter, but with the news today, I am open to believing her crime was hiding the body and lying as long as possible. Remember, she was only 22. I did a lot of dumb stuff when I was that young. Granted I never killed or hid a body.

I disagree with this. Cases with physical evidence but NO circumstantial can be hard to prosecute. Instead, most cases are won on great circumstantial evidence, like we have here. Look at the SP case, for example. There was virutally no physical evidence that actually linked SP to the murders. No cause of death, either. That case was won on his behavior, purely circumstantial.
And, cases where the lying mother who last saw the missing child alive also researched chloroform, inhalation and death, and missing children, as well as neck breaking, months before her child went "missing", and where significant traces of chloroform were actually found in the trunk where the little body had been, tend to disprove an accident as means of death.

 

[future criminologist]

I have a question that maybe someone on here can answer: do we know if the bag of remains was actually buried? or was it laying there out in the open? has this been determined?

 

[Sammiejam]

1)circumstantial evidence - leaves plenty of room for reasonable doubt

2)crime scene evidence - We do not know that evidence yet

3) actual examination of the body - Shows no physical damage to the body (sans toxicology)


Circumstantial is not enough to commit in most cases. Examination of the body shows no physical trauma, Caylee was not beaten prior, or during her death. Crime Scene evidence, may and probably links her to her home.

To me, and moo, they cannot rule out accidental or natural death.

I am NOT a KC supporter, but with the news today, I am open to believing her crime was hiding the body and lying as long as possible. Remember, she was only 22. I did a lot of dumb stuff when I was that young. Granted I never killed or hid a body.

I have not read through all the responses so I apologise in advance if I am repeating what someone else has said.

3dogmom, I would agree with what you were saying IF KC crumbled and decided to fight the charges by changing her story and going for an ACCIDENT defence. She's not. She is "sticking to her story" about the Nanny. The defence is not even going to MENTION the fact that the death could be accidental or natural because THEY ARE SAYING THAT IT HAPPENED WHEN CAYLEE WAS IN THE CARE OF THE NANNY.

There entire argument is that the NANNY murdered Caylee and KC was no where in the vicinity. They are never going to say, "Ok yes, it was AN ACCIDENT and it happened when Caylee was with the nanny, so THE NANNY isn't responsible either. OH HELL NO.

In fact, their argument is in agreement with the LE and ME on that one point, that in fact Caylee WAS murdered. They cannot bring up the fact that it could be "natural" death, or "an accident" because it contrary to their entire story thus far.

And that must be driving them nuts at this point. Had they not stuck to this ridiculous nanny fiasco then this ruling could actually help them but because of thier own stupid words and stubborness, thy have made this ruling a HINDERENCE to thier defence. Tee hee hee. If they can convince KC to change her mind and abandon the nanny lie then yes, it may help but I dont REALLY think so at this point, we have all seen her to be a total liar and changing her story now is going to look like what it is - a desperate attempt at at a hail mary pass.

 

[gitana1]

I have not read through all the responses so I apologise in advance if I am repeating what someone else has said.

3dogmom, I would agree with what you were saying IF KC crumbled and decided to fight the charges by changing her story and going for an ACCIDENT defence. She's not. She is "sticking to her story" about the Nanny. The defence is not even going to MENTION the fact that the death could be accidental or natural because THEY ARE SAYING THAT IT HAPPENED WHEN CAYLEE WAS IN THE CARE OF THE NANNY.

There entire argument is that the NANNY murdered Caylee and KC was no where in the vicinity. They are never going to say, "Ok yes, it was AN ACCIDENT and it happened when Caylee was with the nanny, so THE NANNY isn't responsible either. OH HELL NO.

In fact, their argument is in agreement with the LE and ME on that one point, that in fact Caylee WAS murdered. They cannot bring up the fact that it could be "natural" death, or "an accident" because it contrary to their entire story thus far.

And that must be driving them nuts at this point. Had they not stuck to this ridiculous nanny fiasco then this ruling could actually help them but because of thier own stupid words and stubborness, thy have made this ruling a HINDERENCE to thier defence. Tee hee hee. If they can convince KC to change her mind and abandon the nanny lie then yes, it may help but I dont REALLY think so at this point, we have all seen her to be a total liar and changing her story now is going to look like what it is - a desperate attempt at at a hail mary pass.

Wow! Excellent observation! By blaming Zanny for the killing, they do seem to admit to a premediated murder of the child by the fictitious nanny and thus rule out an kind of accicental death.

 

[Macushla]

Also, by blaming the Nanny for the murder, they may just keep out a lot of the 'medical' testimony. The defense can 'stipulate' to the death being a homicide - in that we are not arguing that Caylee was murdered, we are saying someone else did it. This could really be to their advantage because, and I may need some help from some of our legal eagles here to either agree or disagree with what I am saying, if they stipulate to the fact of murder, then they may be able to keep a lot of the medical evidence (including any autopsy photos) from being introduced at the trial!

 

[Texana]

ty, texana.

what did they or will they decide for purpose of her death certificate?

depending upon the wording in the state of Florida, something along the lines of cause of death undetermined and include possibly "from unnatural causes." However, I can't say for certain about the latter part.

The prosecution can make inferences from the evidence (the traces of chloroform, the searches on the computer) but the medical examiner can only present the actual facts, which are that the exact cause of death cannot be determined.

The medical examiner or coroner's office can only state what the scientific facts actually show. No "probably" or "possibly" about it. However, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that this was not a natural death or an accident; else, why cover it up?

 

[luvbeaches]

No they did not, cause of death: undetermined.

If you do a google search there are hundreds of convictions with no body at all. Those ALL have undetermined causes of death. And there are 100s and 100s and 100s of other cases were if the body is not found before serious decomp has occured they cannot determine the cause of death. This is not rare, it is not a huge benefit to the defense.

They can't get in front of a jury at this point and say the state is wrong, the evidence does not show that my client intended to kill her child, it was an accident! <insert mystery resolved here> That would involve her admitting guilt to something they have offered her plea deals to do over and over. That scenario makes zero sense. If they go to trial they are saying Casey did not kill Caylee. The evidence shows otherwise, her cold heartedness allowed for the ME to not tell you exactly how she did it, but the circumstance show she did and literally went out drinking, dancing, shopping and f'ing. Nothing changes any of that. It just doesn't.

I didn't think they determined a cause of death for Laci. I agree, I don't think this is a benefit at all to the defense. The defense will say and do anything...even if it's a lie. They can say what they want, but I personally believe Casey killed Caylee and she's going to be found guilty. I'm sure there's a ton of other evidence against Casey, but from what we have seen so far, I have no problem saying this.

I think we're going to hear all sorts of incredible things from the "Dream Team." Lots of BS.

 

[luvbeaches]

. Cases with physical evidence but NO circumstantial can be hard to prosecute. Instead, most cases are won on great circumstantial evidence, like we have here. Look at the SP case, for example. There was virutally no physical evidence that actually linked SP to the murders. No cause of death, either. That case was won on his behavior, purely circumstantial.
And, cases where the lying mother who last saw the missing child alive also researched chloroform, inhalation and death, and missing children, as well as neck breaking, months before her child went "missing", and where significant traces of chloroform were actually found in the trunk where the little body had been, tend to disprove an accident as means of death.

I'd bet the farm they have plenty of evidence that will connect Casey to the murder of her daughter. We're only hearing a tiny fragment of what they have against her. I went to the Edwin Hall hearings, and followed that case, and I was stunned when he suddenly pled guilty (at a regular hearing), and at this hearing...and the DA listed off the evidence against Hall. There were all sorts of things that I hadn't considered, nor had there been a peep let out about certain things. I'm truly confident that Casey is going to be held accountable for this horrible crime. We just have to wait it out...and listen to the BS that her Dream Team is spewing. Poor little Caylee...she's the one who deserves a "Dream Team," not her mother.

 

[Traybone74]

A= CA admits to hearing about Zanny the Nanny for over a year before Caylee's death. KC has been Lying about that for a looong time.

B= Agree it is disgusting, but KC laid many pets to rest there, to her it was a graveyard

C= She is an admitted Liar. Her photobucket account had many icons stating how "good" lying is and beneficial to her.

If she was lying about the nanny, where was Caylee during the times she was supposedly with her? Had KC been drugging Caylee and leaving her in the car trunk perhaps? No one would watch Caylee for KC anymore because of her lies, maybe that was the search on Chloroform and the creation of "Zanny". Then she either gives Caylee too much or leaves her too long one day and this is why the trunk smelled as strongly as it did?

I know nothing about chloroform BTW. If could be used in that way or not I have no idea but maybe that is why she looked it up? (I know its not going to be on my recent searches) Maybe she used it to sedate her till the other drugs took over? I dont know, I'm just theorycrafting.

 

[beckaroozie]

Sorry for asking twice on this thread. Does anyone know what Caylee's official date of death is or will be? Who sets this date and how do they decide it?

The media repeatedly refers to Caylee as a 3 yo but she went missing and was presumed dead @ 2yo.

TIA

Oooh Irish that's a good question. I think the ME sets the TOD and includes it in the Death Certificate. Dr. G said that the Death Certificate would be released soon didn't she? That should tell us a lot.

 

[JustMy2Cents]

a MISTAKE is neglecting to brush your 2 year old's teeth before bed because they fell asleep and you didn't want to wake them back up... and having them end up with a mouth full of cavities at the next dentist visit.
NOT OD'ing them when you're trying to sedate them so you can can go clubbing or sleep over at your boyfriends apartment.

casey did ANYTHING in her power to pawn caylee off every chance she got... she even went as far as making up bogus jobs so she could get someone else to watch her... and when they caught on to her, nobody wanted to babysit anymore... so she goes and *allegedly* doses her to get her to pass out.. why am i not seeing a "mistake" here??? this was disgusting and PREMEDITATED.... NOT an "oopsie"
if my 2 year old daughter had an accident... or heck.. if i somehow even managed to kill her by letting her swallow too much toothpaste... ??? the FIRST thing i would be doing is calling 911. NOT hosing her down with bug spray, bagging her up and stuffing her in my trunk until she starts to stink.

and i'm not buying the "young" mother thing... i had 3 kids by the age of 25.. and will have 4 by 29.... parenting skill have nothing to do with age..

i hope that if she doesn't get the DP that they at least remove all of her reproductive organs

I agree. A 'young mother' is my sister in law who had two children by the age of 16 (sheesh, I know!.) None of her three children have ended up in trash bags a block from home. I am tired of hearing that excuse for any of KC's behavior. She wasn't that young and by no means the first 19 year old to have a child. Most 19 year olds also don't have the luxury of having mommy and daddy raising their offspring while they run around and do nothing for 3 years. KC disgust me. The whole ScamThony family disgust me and I hope all of them are prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

 

[mysteriew]

what about shaken baby? that prob wouldn't show physical trauma, unless the neck was broken...which I guess it was not. But since there is no brain to examine, we can't know.

That is one thing that comes to mind as I'm pondering why she didn't call the police if it was an accident, though that's assault, not an accident.

Thank you I had forgotten about shaken baby. I think that is possible because with shaken baby the damage is to the brain and wouldn't be visible in a skeleton.

When I first heard that there doesn't appear to be any damage to the bones, my first thought was that it left asphyxiation (strangulation, drowning, suffocation) or drug overdose (cough medicine, xanax, or chloroform) as cause of death. Heat stroke. Now add shaken baby. A knife wound is possible, but less likely because as far as we have heard no blood evidence has been found.

JB in his letter to the prosecution brought up that it was accidental and that everyone would understand after they heard the story. In criminal trials, 'accident' means there was no intention to kill, not that there was no intention to harm. IOW something like a mother shaking her child might be viewed as an accident in their scenario. So could the drug OD, if the intention was to quiet the child not to kill them. Knife wounds and asphyxiation are harder to sell as an 'accident'. There have been 'accidental' suffocations when a person taped off a child's mouth for some reason- to keep them quiet or help keep them captive.

Shaken baby doesn't account for the tape around her mouth. And really the tape being wrapped all around her head more or less rules out drug OD. If she was drugged, why use the tape?

So I am guessing that it may be a combination. I think that Casey left her in the car with her mouth taped, perhaps while she was at Tone's or maybe while she was shopping. Maybe she drugged her, maybe not. She left her too long in a hot car and the combination may have killed her. Tape would restrict her breathing, drugs would have slowed her breathing, a hot vehicle, and being left too long. The being left too long would be why JB called it an 'accident'. I think tthat JB was hoping the prosecution would view it more as negligence than than a total lack of care and concern for her child.

Yeah, my scenario more or less rules out premeditation. But KC strikes me as the type who might fantasize, but who had problems with conceiving a plan and carrying it out. Carrying out a plan means work.

 

[Andy H.]

If she sticks with the nanny story, how does the scheme team get it in? There's no evidence, no witnesses, no phone records, nothing except KA's word. I think it would assure a conviction unless the jury is made up of the dumbest people in the area.

 

[not_my_kids]

Sorry for asking twice on this thread. Does anyone know what Caylee's official date of death is or will be? Who sets this date and how do they decide it?

The media repeatedly refers to Caylee as a 3 yo but she went missing and was presumed dead @ 2yo.

TIA

My dad died at the end of August (suicide). We didn't find his body until the 14th of September. The ME said that he had been dead about 2 weeks and put suspected date of death at 8-28, but because there is no solid proof that he died on the date, the official date is still listed as 9-24. I am not sure if they will list Caylee's date of death as the day she was found or if they have more proof of a date of death in this case.

 

[heartfortruth]

My dad died at the end of August (suicide). We didn't find his body until the 14th of September. The ME said that he had been dead about 2 weeks and put suspected date of death at 8-28, but because there is no solid proof that he died on the date, the official date is still listed as 9-24. I am not sure if they will list Caylee's date of death as the day she was found or if they have more proof of a date of death in this case.

Thank you for the information .........but , how sad for you ......{{{HUG}}}}

 

[TopGunner]

My dad died at the end of August (suicide). We didn't find his body until the 14th of September. The ME said that he had been dead about 2 weeks and put suspected date of death at 8-28, but because there is no solid proof that he died on the date, the official date is still listed as 9-24. I am not sure if they will list Caylee's date of death as the day she was found or if they have more proof of a date of death in this case.

So sorry about your dad........:blowkiss:

 

[CPP]

If Caylee's body was intact with no anitmortem damage, how can they rule Homicide and not Natural death? Considering no toxicology has been returned, they seem to not be able to rule out natural death?

MOO

I get what your saying, but I think that when an otherwise healthy child's remains are found with duct tape on the skull, dumped in a trash bag, homicide is a logical conclusion. IIRC, a commentator on NG said that the duct tape indicates restraint, and therefore premeditation.