GUILTY UT - Brian Mitchell & Wanda Barzee for kidnapping, Salt Lake City, 5 June 2002

[OneLostGrl]

I've always felt this way about Charles Manson. Forcibly medicating to stand trial rubs me the wrong way..I have problems with this anyway, but there are credible arguments to both sides. Forcibly medicating to stand trial means that they think she'll be "sane" enough for trial.....she's sane enough now! Crazy and insane are two different things.

Forced medication rubs me in so many different ways that I'm never sure what feelings to expect from the next "rub".. nausea, solidarity, anger, sadness, outrage or thankfulness.

It's a huge issue and I simply cannot make up my mind how I feel about it. In some situations it is a good thing, such as with a violent person and keeping society safe, etc. More often I believe it is wrong to force medications on a human being, mentally ill or not.

Forcing meds so a person can be "sane" enough to stand trial makes no sense to me if the person was "insane" during the commision of the crime, ya know? Competency to stand trial and criminal responsibility are seperate issues.

I agree with you completely- crazy and insane are 2 different things.. beginning with insanity being a legal, not a medical term.

 

[OneLostGrl]

This story has also never sat right with me.

I have a friend who thinks that Elizabeth turned up pregnant, and that this "abduction" was arranged as a means to "send her away" for the pregnancy and subsequent birth out of shame due to religious reasons.

How long was she gone?

I think the same thing but I think she was pregnant with a family members child and that the family member paid Mitchell to keep Elizabeth for them. Kinda like it used to be, sending a girl off to live with her "aunt" until the baby is born so nobody knows. I also think LE knows a bit of this and that's why they have yet to prosecute.

She was gone for 9 months!

Again, this is just what *I* think... I'm sorry if I offend.

 

[SeekingJana]

This story has also never sat right with me.

I have a friend who thinks that Elizabeth turned up pregnant, and that this "abduction" was arranged as a means to "send her away" for the pregnancy and subsequent birth out of shame due to religious reasons.

How long was she gone?

I have a friend who thinks the exact same thing and has some compelling arguments to back it up.

Elizabeth was gone for 9 months.

 

[Vegas Bride]

I agree with the posters who say things just don't seem right, but I feel I have a bit of a different perspective here also. IMO the Smart family did not have anything at all to do with Elizabeth being abducted, held captive and raped. Elisabeth was a victim and I believe she deserves our compassion. I feel some people can't understand why she did not run away when she had a chance and when asked what her name was she did not tell the truth. IMO Elizabeth was well trained from the time she was born to be subserviant to a male due to her religion. When you are married in the mormon temple you are given a different name, when she was taken and "married" with all the trauma she was going through I think she did believe then that she no longer was Elizabeth.
There is so much I see living here in Utah that does not set right with me about the Mormon religion, any day I go shopping at walmart I see so many young women/girls who have so many children, their role is to be married and begin producing much like the flds, if wacko had kidnapped a young girl who was not such a devout Mormon I doubt he would have had it work so well for him, the training Elizabeth had received that a wife is to be subserviant to her husband and do as she is told helped him greatly.

VB

 

[Moab]

This story has also never sat right with me.

I have a friend who thinks that Elizabeth turned up pregnant, and that this "abduction" was arranged as a means to "send her away" for the pregnancy and subsequent birth out of shame due to religious reasons.

How long was she gone?

That was malicious rumor, even though the time frame for her being gone was approximately 9 months. First and foremost, that is not how the LDS would treat an unwed mother by faking a kidnapping.

 

[Pandora]

I agree with the posters who say things just don't seem right, but I feel I have a bit of a different perspective here also. IMO the Smart family did not have anything at all to do with Elizabeth being abducted, held captive and raped. Elisabeth was a victim and I believe she deserves our compassion. I feel some people can't understand why she did not run away when she had a chance and when asked what her name was she did not tell the truth. IMO Elizabeth was well trained from the time she was born to be subserviant to a male due to her religion. When you are married in the mormon temple you are given a different name, when she was taken and "married" with all the trauma she was going through I think she did believe then that she no longer was Elizabeth.
There is so much I see living here in Utah that does not set right with me about the Mormon religion, any day I go shopping at walmart I see so many young women/girls who have so many children, their role is to be married and begin producing much like the flds, if wacko had kidnapped a young girl who was not such a devout Mormon I doubt he would have had it work so well for him, the training Elizabeth had received that a wife is to be subserviant to her husband and do as she is told helped him greatly.

VB

:clap:
Having grown up in a Christian fundamentalist home, I think you've hit the nail on the head!

 

[Moab]

I think the same thing but I think she was pregnant with a family members child and that the family member paid Mitchell to keep Elizabeth for them. Kinda like it used to be, sending a girl off to live with her "aunt" until the baby is born so nobody knows. I also think LE knows a bit of this and that's why they have yet to prosecute.

She was gone for 9 months!

Again, this is just what *I* think... I'm sorry if I offend.

Not taking offense here, but this is how malicious rumors get started and people get their reputations ruined. I guess you must not know much about the LDS religion. They take care of their own, they do not instigate a nation-wide manhunt for an unwed mother.

Don't you think after 5 years, if this were true, that LE would have filed charges against the family by now?

Did you not believe the results of her being examined by a hospital upon her return that she was not, nor had she ever been pregnant?

What would be the reason for she and her father to have become advocates for missing children if this was all a ruse?

 

[Moab]

I have a friend who thinks the exact same thing and has some compelling arguments to back it up.

Elizabeth was gone for 9 months.

I would be interested in hearing those arguments, because a 9-month time frame means nothing!

 

[Moab]

I agree with the posters who say things just don't seem right, but I feel I have a bit of a different perspective here also. IMO the Smart family did not have anything at all to do with Elizabeth being abducted, held captive and raped. Elisabeth was a victim and I believe she deserves our compassion. I feel some people can't understand why she did not run away when she had a chance and when asked what her name was she did not tell the truth. IMO Elizabeth was well trained from the time she was born to be subserviant to a male due to her religion. When you are married in the mormon temple you are given a different name, when she was taken and "married" with all the trauma she was going through I think she did believe then that she no longer was Elizabeth.
There is so much I see living here in Utah that does not set right with me about the Mormon religion, any day I go shopping at walmart I see so many young women/girls who have so many children, their role is to be married and begin producing much like the flds, if wacko had kidnapped a young girl who was not such a devout Mormon I doubt he would have had it work so well for him, the training Elizabeth had received that a wife is to be subserviant to her husband and do as she is told helped him greatly.

VB

Nice post, and I agree with the end result, but not necessarily how you got to your answer. Subservience may have played a part, hard to tell with a teenager, but having your life threatened and the lives of family members certainly does make one do what they have to in order to survive an ordeal. I think her devout faith had more to do with the strength she acquired during this ordeal than subservience. She was 14 and had not been trained to be a wife. I do agree the FLDS would have been "trained" at that age.

 

[natasha-cupcake]

Elizabeth's behavior during and immediately after her abduction and rescue is easily explained by the Stockholm Syndrome. I also think it's ludicrous and cruel to think that she was pregnant and that her family somehow engineered the abduction to hide a pregnancy. What parent in their right mind would allow those two to have contact with their daughter for any amount of time, simply to perpetuate a dangerous and stupid ruse? There are much better and much, much safer ways to "hide" a pregnant daughter.

The only thing I can fault the parents for, at all, is their stupidity in inviting a homeless man, who exists on the bare fringes of society, to their home. Send money to a homeless shelter, buy the guy a McDonalds meal, walk him to an AA meeting, give him a bus ticket to the employment office, but don't invite him to your home. I understand such acts of charity are a part of their religion, but bringing a homeless person to your home is just not a good idea. The vast majority of homeless people in this country are suffering from severe mental illness or have intractible addiction issues. They do not make good handymen and inviting them to your home only puts your children at risk. Pure stupidity on the church's part, to encourage people to do something that dangerous.

 

[Moab]

Bravo, Natasha!
:clap::clap::clap:

 

[curves]

In regards to Elizabeth being pregnant, I don't beleive this either. There were also the photos which were circulated after she was found which clearly showed her not being pregnant. (The ones with her wearing almost a burka type thing which were taken at some street party).

 

[dottierainbow]

I believe Malicious rumors can and do destroys families. I pray that this family get the peace that is needed.

 

[mrsjonnob]

Elizabeth's behavior during and immediately after her abduction and rescue is easily explained by the Stockholm Syndrome. I also think it's ludicrous and cruel to think that she was pregnant and that her family somehow engineered the abduction to hide a pregnancy. What parent in their right mind would allow those two to have contact with their daughter for any amount of time, simply to perpetuate a dangerous and stupid ruse? There are much better and much, much safer ways to "hide" a pregnant daughter.

The only thing I can fault the parents for, at all, is their stupidity in inviting a homeless man, who exists on the bare fringes of society, to their home. Send money to a homeless shelter, buy the guy a McDonalds meal, walk him to an AA meeting, give him a bus ticket to the employment office, but don't invite him to your home. I understand such acts of charity are a part of their religion, but bringing a homeless person to your home is just not a good idea. The vast majority of homeless people in this country are suffering from severe mental illness or have intractible addiction issues. They do not make good handymen and inviting them to your home only puts your children at risk. Pure stupidity on the church's part, to encourage people to do something that dangerous.

I will never forget the year my SIL invited a homeless guy she met on the subway to our home for Thanksgiving. She honestly felt she was being Christ-like, and you know, she really was, however, something terrible could have happened and I still believe it was poor judgement on her part.

I am LDS. I have known many un-wed LDS teenagers and can't fathom anyone staging a kidnapping to cover it up.

 

[Saffron]

What bothered me somewhat was Ed Smart taking Elizabeth around the talk show circuit. Also, him doing a commercial for a security alarm company, using Elizabeth's abduction as a reason to buy the product. I thought this was exploitative. Because her abduction included sexual assault, she especially needed privacy. To me, he kept his young daughter (and himself) in the public eye unnecessarily.

 

[deanws]

Add me to the list as well golfmom. Can't pinpoint it exactly, but the more answers I heard from the Smart family and news media, the more questions I had. It just didn't make any sense to me.
Also I understand that Elizabeth must have gone through hell for those months but the reunion with her family IMO didn't look like a happy encounter. It almost looked to me like Elizabeth was pulling away from her dad at one point when they were standing together in her laneway I believe, and he hugged her. I also wonder why she told the police she was not Elizabeth Smart. I guess I just don't understand the complexities of the mind. At any rate, glad she is doing well and has a second chance unlike so many poor kids that go missing.

I also believe she went willingly in the beginning.

 

[michelle]

What bothered me somewhat was Ed Smart taking Elizabeth around the talk show circuit. Also, him doing a commercial for a security alarm company, using Elizabeth's abduction as a reason to buy the product. I thought this was exploitative. Because her abduction included sexual assault, she especially needed privacy. To me, he kept his young daughter (and himself) in the public eye unnecessarily.

I actually thought they handled the media well, it seemed we rarely seen them at all after the abduction. I think elizabeth was on Nancy Grace and put her in her place for asking things that were to personal, they were very hush hush. As far as Ed doing a commercial for security systems, I think he is really just trying to help. JMO

 

[DeltaDawn]

Elizabeth's behavior during and immediately after her abduction and rescue is easily explained by the Stockholm Syndrome. I also think it's ludicrous and cruel to think that she was pregnant and that her family somehow engineered the abduction to hide a pregnancy. What parent in their right mind would allow those two to have contact with their daughter for any amount of time, simply to perpetuate a dangerous and stupid ruse? There are much better and much, much safer ways to "hide" a pregnant daughter.

The only thing I can fault the parents for, at all, is their stupidity in inviting a homeless man, who exists on the bare fringes of society, to their home. Send money to a homeless shelter, buy the guy a McDonald's meal, walk him to an AA meeting, give him a bus ticket to the employment office, but don't invite him to your home. I understand such acts of charity are a part of their religion, but bringing a homeless person to your home is just not a good idea. The vast majority of homeless people in this country are suffering from severe mental illness or have intractable addiction issues. They do not make good handymen and inviting them to your home only puts your children at risk. Pure stupidity on the church's part, to encourage people to do something that dangerous.

Great post Natasha..esspecially explaining that abductees do react in this way due to Stockholm Syndrome. It is very well documented. It is a survival mechanism.

There is nothing unusual about any of the behaviors here with Elizabeth, and her family. Why are some attacking the family of the Vic and the Vic?

The two people who abducted her are crazy and do need treatment, but that should not exclude them from jail and doing the time they deserve, they can be medicated in jail as well as any where else. Not only did they perpetrate a crime against Elizabeth, but her entire family..including her siblings. One can only imagine how terrified those other children were each night at bedtime.

She has proven to be a strong young women and her family undoubtedly has helped her to be such.

 

[Love_Mama]

I think the same thing but I think she was pregnant with a family members child and that the family member paid Mitchell to keep Elizabeth for them. Kinda like it used to be, sending a girl off to live with her "aunt" until the baby is born so nobody knows. I also think LE knows a bit of this and that's why they have yet to prosecute.

She was gone for 9 months!

Again, this is just what *I* think... I'm sorry if I offend.

I think the same thing OneLostgrl and still do.
xxxxxxxxxooo
mama
xxxxxxxxxxxooooooo
:blowkiss::blowkiss:

 

[PSUfan]

What bothered me somewhat was Ed Smart taking Elizabeth around the talk show circuit. Also, him doing a commercial for a security alarm company, using Elizabeth's abduction as a reason to buy the product. I thought this was exploitative. Because her abduction included sexual assault, she especially needed privacy. To me, he kept his young daughter (and himself) in the public eye unnecessarily.

I thought the Smart family protected Elizabeth very well. And Mr. Smart probably really did believe in the security alarm company, thinking that others could benefit from a painful lesson that he and his family learned. I did not see it as exploitive.

As far as keeping her in the media eye, it was nothing close to the Shawn Hornbeck case. They had press conferences with him present. I honestly thought the Smart family did everything they could to protect Elizabeth, and she seems to have recovered with few scars.

Whoever suggested that she was pregnant, and such and such... why on earth invent drama when it isnt even there? The sexier, the better. The speculation reminds me of this ONION fake broadcast. The Natalie Holloway disapearence, and sex slave rumors reminded me of this as well.

A quick google brought this up. Click the vid to watch.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/mlasalle/detail?blogid=38&entry_id=21680