GUILTY UT - Michele MacNeill, 50, found dead in bathtub, Pleasant Grove, 11 April 2007 - #3

[Italy]

While I don't believe the state will ever put Martin on the stand, he is the only one who can challenge Alexis' claim that he admitted giving an overdose of medicine to Michelle the evening/night of the 8th. An overdose which, according to sworn testimony, rendered her severely incapacitated & not lucid for a significant period of time.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I think he drowned her, and I hope the jury sees that too. I'm looking forward to Dr Perper's testimony because I think it will make this more clear.

Of course he drowned her, and she was too heavily medicated to fight back. He had the oldest motive in the book to get rid of a wife---> a mistress. Compound it with the fact that this mistress was obsessed and operating with a fury to become numero uno in MM's life.

It is highly unlikely that the wife would've died from natural causes post-op (8 days later) especially in light of the fact that surgeon's order a battery of tests to determine if a patient is strong enough to withstand surgery. Especially a non-emergency, cosmetic surgery....not strong enough means the surgery gets postponed until the patient can withstand the procedure and recovery. Surgeon's want to eliminate risk and deter lawsuits.

I've read rumors that when MM kills, he feels justified in putting people out of their misery and plays Judge and Juror over their quality of life. MM feels he is God-like in his warped way of thinking.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Just to clear up a couple of things:

"Heart virus" Someone referred to the initial autopsy saying that Michelle had a "heart virus". This is not true. There was no "heart virus".

Treatment for hypertension. Michelle began treatment for her elevated blood pressure AFTER she was seen by a doctor for a pre-op exam in order to get clearance for the facial surgery. So she was only on the Lisinopril for a week or so prior to her death. I don't even think we've heard whether her B/P was brought under control or not.

CPR fluid - blood tinged frothy fluid can also be a sign of drowning.

Brown water in bathtub - Fecal matter. Nobody said the water was red. The little girl described it two times as brown. It is common for the anal sphincters to relax at time of death.

Blood spot on bedroom floor - was from after the death when the Ambulance crew moved her from the tile bathroom floor to the carpeted bedroom floor.

 

[Nore]

Yes, water expelled from the stomach would be called emesis and may contain particles of food, mucus and may be tinted slightly or bright yellow. I would imagine if the contents of the stomach were expelled after death, there may be bile, in which case the fluid would be tinted green. Seems I read that EMT's said the fluid that came out was frothy and blood tinged. If this is true, sounds like what is found in lungs with drug overdose (learned that from the Doc that did the autopsy on Caylee Anthony, can't remember her name, but watched her shows).

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Hi Isabelle, Dr. Jan Garavaglia. I still watch her. She speaks of many things educational for the ordinary person. Take care.

 

[minor4th]

Of course he drowned her, and she was too heavily medicated to fight back. He had the oldest motive in the book to get rid of a wife---> a mistress. Compound it with the fact that this mistress was obsessed and operating with a fury to become numero uno in MM's life.

It is highly unlikely that the wife would've died from natural causes post-op (8 days later) especially in light of the fact that surgeon's order a battery of tests to determine if a patient is strong enough to withstand surgery. Especially a non-emergency, cosmetic surgery....not strong enough means the surgery gets postponed until the patient can withstand the procedure and recovery. Surgeon's want to eliminate risk and deter lawsuits.

I've read rumors that when MM kills, he feels justified in putting people out of their misery and plays Judge and Juror over their quality of life. MM feels he is God-like in his warped way of thinking.

I agree with you. It bothers me that two ME's concluded that cause of death was heart disease though

 

[Ann-Tx]

Medical examiner: Drugs played role in Michele MacNeill’s death

Courts » Todd Grey denies he was pressured to reopen case and change manner of death.

The Salt Lake Tribune
Salt Lake City, UT

First Published Oct 30 2013 06:31 pm • Updated 1 hour ago


Provo • Was Michele MacNeill killed at the hands of her doctor husband, or was her death natural?

It’s the question at the heart of Martin MacNeill’s murder trial.

Snipped:

Grey said there was also some evidence that Michele MacNeill may have drowned, and pointed to reports from medical responders who said that while undergoing CPR, the woman coughed up several cups of water, some of it pink and frothy. But Grey said he could not be sure if that water came from the woman’s lungs or stomach.

Though Grey said he did not see enough evidence in the woman’s lungs to indicate that drowning played a role in the woman’s death, he said it could still be possible.

Snipped:

"If you were to learn that the defendant told somebody that he had drugged up Michele MacNeill, and convinced her to get into the tub and held her down for a little bit, and it caused her death, would that scenario be consistent [with the autopsy results?]" Deputy Utah County Attorney Chad Grunander posed as a hypothetical question.

"Yes, it certainly is possible," Grey said.

Grunander also inquired whether Grey was "pressured" by Utah County Attorney’s Office investigators to re-open the case and change the manner of death so their homicide investigation could continue. Grey denied this.

"You basically have no effect on my life," Grey told Grunander, adding that he does not work for the county attorney’s office or law enforcement.

Read more:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57062865-78/macneill-martin-trial-murder.html.csp

 

[Nore]

Of course he drowned her, and she was too heavily medicated to fight back. He had the oldest motive in the book to get rid of a wife---> a mistress. Compound it with the fact that this mistress was obsessed and operating with a fury to become numero uno in MM's life.

It is highly unlikely that the wife would've died from natural causes post-op (8 days later) especially in light of the fact that surgeon's order a battery of tests to determine if a patient is strong enough to withstand surgery. Especially a non-emergency, cosmetic surgery....not strong enough means the surgery gets postponed until the patient can withstand the procedure and recovery. Surgeon's want to eliminate risk and deter lawsuits.

I've read rumors that when MM kills, he feels justified in putting people out of their misery and plays Judge and Juror over their quality of life. MM feels he is God-like in his warped way of thinking.

--------

Hi, I think he planned on killing her the first night home. That is why he was so adamant about her leaving the hospital. Would have been normal for her to have all the meds in her, just leave her in the bed. I agree he has a god complex. :seeya:

 

[scorekeeper]

I have been reviewing old interviews and such.

If I recall, Marty told the plastic surgeon something like "I don't sue people".....

I wonder if he had been successful with killing Michele on her first night home from the hospital.......would Marty have sued the surgeon?

just thinking out loud....

 

[scorekeeper]

--------

Hi, I think he planned on killing her the first night home. That is why he was so adamant about her leaving the hospital. Would have been normal for her to have all the meds in her, just leave her in the bed. I agree he has a god complex. :seeya:

interesting that we thought the same......posted at same time/same thought

:loveyou::loveyou::loveyou:

 

[Nore]

interesting that we thought the same......posted at same time/same thought

:loveyou::loveyou::loveyou:

-----
Hi, They say great minds think alike!:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:


:loveyou::laughcry: :loveyou:

 

[RR0004]

Just to clear up a couple of things:

"Heart virus" Someone referred to the initial autopsy saying that Michelle had a "heart virus". This is not true. There was no "heart virus".

Treatment for hypertension. Michelle began treatment for her elevated blood pressure AFTER she was seen by a doctor for a pre-op exam in order to get clearance for the facial surgery. So she was only on the Lisinopril for a week or so prior to her death. I don't even think we've heard whether her B/P was brought under control or not.

CPR fluid - blood tinged frothy fluid can also be a sign of drowning.

Brown water in bathtub - Fecal matter. Nobody said the water was red. The little girl described it two times as brown. It is common for the anal sphincters to relax at time of death.

Blood spot on bedroom floor - was from after the death when the Ambulance crew moved her from the tile bathroom floor to the carpeted bedroom floor.

I heard mention of myocarditis today while the CME was on the stand. Came in the middle of the cross-examination so not sure how/why it was brought up.

 

[renatae]

I just listened to Dr Grey talking about this. He said he did not know and could not determine whether the water was expelled from her lungs or her stomach, either was possible.

**My apologies in advance for this more than slightly O/T question/post**

And Bravo you may have no clue what I am even talking about/asking, but this discussion brought up a very clear memory that I have regarding patients "coding" in a hospital and the use of the crash cart, etc..

My daddy died suddenly/unexpectedly @the age of 36 from a pulmonary embolism that he got 48hours after a very routine, and relatively minor surgery.. This happened as he was very literally being discharged while preparing to get dressed in his street clothes that my mom and I had brought for him when we arrived to pick him up, to take him home that morning from the hospital..

Anyhoo all that was to say that one of my most vivid memories was of the long and extended time that they spent attempting to resuscitate him in their at that time having no idea that it was in fact a PE that he had suffered and that he was gone/passed literally before he ever even hit the hospital room floor.. The term that they used for the "team" of health professionals that immediately arrived in his room and performed any/all of the measures taken to attempt to resuscitate him..the term they used I have always remembered being called, "The Harvey Team"..but now I wonder is my memory faulty/unclear due to my googling this term led to nothing remotely similar to this term being used to identify resuscitation efforts on a patient who has "coded" in a hospital...??..?

Am I crazy in my always having remembered their specifically referring to this "Harvey Team"..and obviously I misunderstood from the start(which I suppose is altogether possible with my being 13yo at the time and it now being over 23 years ago that this happened)..

Again my apologies for the O/T question along with my as is usual, overly wording my posts:blushing:..Bravo, you may not have the foggiest idea of what I'm talking about/asking..lol..but I'm hoping that maybe someone here with medical training/experience may know the answer to my unusual and off topic question:crazy:

**Please forgive the limitations that come w/my posting via mobile ATM**

My heartfelt condolences to you on the passing of your father and what a horrid shock it must have been to you. :hug:

You very likely heard exactly what you thought you heard. Hospitals all have their own way of broadcasting a code, and for that hospital it may well have been to call the "Harvey Team" or something that sounded like that to you. One hospital I worked at used to call a "Dr. X" - X being an unusual name I can't recall anymore, LOL. There were no doctors on staff with that name and it was a signal that the resuscitation team was to go to whatever floor was named. It was done that way, especially in the past, so as not to alarm any visitors.

Hope this helps!

 

[Tricia]

Today (Friday) I head to Provo Utah. Provo's nickname is, "Happy Valley". Just some useless trivia for you.

Anyway, will be meeting up with another Websleuths member.

Will do my best to post as much as I can from the trial. I think I have to wait until a break in the proceedings before I can get my phone out and start typing.

Take care,
Tricia

 

[Isabelle]

I just listened to Dr. Scott Thompson's testimony. I guarantee he learned a very valuable lesson that professional courtesies should not be extended when it comes to prescribing additional medications that would be out of the norm for his patients. He stated that during Michele's followup visit on 4/10, she indicated good pain control and that she was taking a minimal amount of pain medication. And, on that same day, after Michele was gone from his office, MM called for refills of the pain medication and they were called in. BIG MISTAKE! I would not be at all surprised if the Board of Medicine got wind of this and paid Dr. Thompson a visit. I would consider his actions neglectful in that he did not call Michele and discuss the need for additional medication after she told him she was taking a minimal amount of the same medication. Also noticed this Dr. was extremely nervous on the stand. I think he might know there is rumbling in the wind coming at him. MM may well have thrown this doctor under the bus big time!

 

[digitalwindows]

Just to clear up a couple of things:

"Heart virus" Someone referred to the initial autopsy saying that Michelle had a "heart virus". This is not true. There was no "heart virus".

That was me I did not have the medical term "myocarditis" at hand when I wrote that but I believe that it is most commonly a virus of the heart.

I understood that 2 of the ME's gave Myocarditis as probable reason for Michelle Macneill's untimely death. I looked up what that was and read that it is most commonly caused by a virus. Dr. Frikke said it was probable and this Dr. Gray originally agreed adding that drugs were also a contributing factor. I don't believe it but that is what they wrote in their reports. (Dr. Gray later amended the natural causes of Dr. Frikke's report to undermined) as I understand the testimony.

Myocarditis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Myocarditis is most often due to infection by common viruses, such as parvovirus B19, less commonly nonviral pathogens such as Borrelia burgdorferi (Lyme disease) or Trypanosoma cruzi, or as a hypersensitivity response to drugs.[1]
The definition of myocarditis varies, but the central feature is an infection of the heart, with an inflammatory infiltrate, and damage to the heart muscle, without the blockage of coronary arteries that define a heart attack (myocardial infarction) or other common noninfectious causes.[2] Myocarditis may or may not include death (necrosis) of heart tissue. It may include dilated cardiomyopathy.[1]
Myocarditis is often an autoimmune reaction. Streptococcal M protein and coxsackievirus B have regions (epitopes) that are immunologically similar to cardiac myosin. During and after the viral infection, the immune system may attack cardiac myosin.[1]
Because a definitive diagnosis requires a heart biopsy, which doctors are reluctant to do because they are invasive, statistics on the incidence of myocarditis vary widely.[1]
The consequences of myocarditis thus also vary widely. It can cause a mild disease without any symptoms that resolves itself, or it may cause chest pain, heart failure, or sudden death. An acute myocardial infarction-like syndrome with normal coronary arteries has a good prognosis. Heart failure, even with dilated left ventricle, may have a good prognosis. Ventricular arrhythmias and high-degree heart block have a poor prognosis. Loss of right ventricular function is a strong predictor of death.[1]

 

[Norwegian]

One thing I feel the prosecution side haven't been able to highlight yes is the timeframe for when MM did this. I think he did it when he was supposed to install the booth for the Safety Fair, but I don't feel that point as come out yet in this trial.

 

[Joy]

Up until tonight, I have been puzzled about the missing pants and towels (the towels were found wet, but not in the bathroom). Here's what I think may have happened... When Michele died, maybe she had a bowel movement (common when you die) and Martin had to clean her up because he didn't want anyone to know she had already died, because he wanted to make it appear that he was "trying to save her life". He probably threw her pants away.

 

[Coldpizza]

Good morning!

New thread:

Martin MacNeill: Michelle's death murder or accident? -Utah #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community