VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #6

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Do you think that they mean that today? In the past maybe that is how it was taken but I assure you it does not mean that today. Do you think the commonwealth of Virginia would allow a state owned university to display symbols representing lynchings and cross burnings? Come on now people.

Of course they still mean that, does the crucifix around your neck change meaning with time. The symbols have a meaning, the same meaning they always had but generations have been dumbed down to it and have no idea what it means. The symbol of the US Senate for example is that of Fascism but nobody knows that anymore so it isnt an issue.

Note the fasces symbol at the bottom, same exact symbol used by Mussolini's Fascist Party. Still has the same meaning but since nobody studies such things or cares it goes unnoticed.

http://api.ning.com/files/TbDzJHYTq...x6PFzjZKGUNs*QsLllIcV*uwds/02SealSenate02.gif
 
I can't imagine either. It sure wouldn't happen in my house either, male or female. And if a kid wanted to spend the night, i sure would have to know alot about that individual plus talk with the parents. No matter the age. That was a mighty big risk to allow a 20 year old to fly across country to be with Emma! And to have him stay in the same house, no matter how big it is. Its open for alot of possibilities. I consider this a major risk factor. IMHO

Let's just start with the fact that they are possibly going to have sex? I remain dumbfounded about this.
 
I think our world RAPIDLY became a different place... a more dangerous place.

I agree that Emma probably had a great deal of control (I've seen it happen with divorced parents) but Tapu brings up a most interesting idea...that Emma was so accustomed to being in control and she obviously hated her parents and perhaps she used Sam to hurt them. Emma may have been the type who can peg a doormat and just maybe she was so hardened the core, she was a great manipulator ~ we don't know. Maybe that is why those who really knew Sam are so perplexed as to how he could have done this and are inferring that he was under the influence of...yeah someone other than Shirm.

What about Mel? Is it possible that Emma was jealous or maybe she just had an all-around disregard for the lives of others? In the scenario that two died first, it could have been Mom and Mel and I get Mom, but am having issues with Mel.

I also think it’s possible that the report was incorrect or maybe that the girls were killed first and it took a day for Debra to figure it out, at which time Sam had to do her in too.

I do very much appreciate the info. on Farmville and the link between 505 etc. I think it is simply fascinating and tend to believe in bad juju and dark spirits and the possibility that Sam and Emma seemed very susceptible to the influences thereof. Not Mel so much. For some reason I read all of her hardcore profiles and look at her pictures and I can’t get a grip on the dark side of her. I feel like I can see it in Emma however – and of course that’s the very non-scientific, (or scientifical as I like to say but don’t want to cause emotional distress to The Tapu) and purely intuitional conclusion based on ziggy’s gut feelings.

Could Emma have been influenced by her occult involvement and the bad juju at 505 1st?

Does anyone know for sure how long Mark and Debra had been separated?
 
Signs and symbols only have the meanings that are assigned to them by convention. They do not exist in a world of their own where they have either significance or power. They exist as signs and symbols only by the implicit agreement of their users.

Take the word "cat" for instance. If any two of us, we all seem to be fluent in English, were to have a conversation about the fuzzy little pet that likes to push his way onto my lap while I'm at my computer, we could use the word "cat" to refer to him without any explanation or discussion of the word's meaning.

By convention, the word "cat" can refer to fuzzy little mammals of a particular type. We can modify it with any number of other words that are by convention allowable: "fuzzy cat", "my cat", "pain in the *advertiser censored* cat", etc.. Those meanings exist because we have a complex structure of which they are a part which has evolved to allow us to communicate with one another.

That structure itself only exists through the active participation of a particular group of people acting together in a particular context, at a particular time. None of those things are fixed, and actually are constantly in flux but they are all more or less necessary for any mark, object, sound, or collection of any of those to be a symbol or a sign.

"Cat" as described above is actually two different things, because I wrote of a conversation. The set of marks use to write "cat" is itself associated with the sound we use in conversation to refer to that animal again by convention only. It is also flexible, since we would likely still recognize it even if spoken in any of the wide range of accents that participants on this forum might have. That sound pronounced køt or kat, according to my Apple dictionary, could also be associated with spellings such at khat or ghat and could refer to any number of other things depending as usual on where, when, and among whom it's being used. If we prepend another descriptor, like Hobie to cat, we refer to a sailboat.

"Cat" then, we can easily see means nothing on its own. It has no history, it has no baggage. The same is true for signs and symbols in general. The chief distinction between signs and symbols is that signs are entirely abstract while symbols have some sort of recognizable relationship to what they are used to symbolize. A stop sign is a sign because there is nothing other than convention that associates red octagons with stopping. Red can be a symbol of sacrifice, because sacrifice not uncommonly involves the spilling of blood, blood is red, and so on.

It is also clear that stop signs have nothing to do, unless we were to go through some complex rhetorical gymnastics (of course not unknown in these parts), with sacrifice. Red then can be seen to carry no universal symbolic meaning. The same is true of any other symbols. Their meaning only exists by agreement. If we don't agree, they don't mean anything and they can't accidentally or unintentionally have meaning either.

Blou, you've made this semiotics based argument before. I think it has some merit actually and warrants a more detailed response than I have time to give at the moment. However, in brief, there are three aspects that I think you are failing to consider.

First, there is the action of the unconscious and the collective unconscious which can endow a symbol with meaning even if the detailed symbolism is not consciously known. This is why some attendees to the Chi-burnings describe them as "scary" or "spooky" despite likely not understanding the symbols being presented to them.

The second point is the evolution of the situation due to the Internet. The Internet enables all known meanings of a symbol to be retrieved easily including those meanings that are outmoded, no longer in use or unusual. This changes everything because in a sense meanings can never be lost or outmoded now. I think this largely renders your argument obsolete.

Finally, remember that with occult symbols the meanings have often existed as esoteric knowledge for thousands of years. These meanings have not been lost, they are well known and have been known, but only to those who spend the time to learn and can now see.

More later...
 
Any father who was paying attention would have ***** slapped Sam. Allowing that guy in their home is nuts. They allowed their spoiled kid to run things. Huge mistake.
 
Sounds like she is on a good track.

And nothing wrong with pride in your school.

But the school is named after a plantation where human beings were kept in slavery and parts of it were built on the unmarked graves of slaves.

And is it pride in their school that leads people to continue hundred year old traditions employing symbols representing lynchings and cross burnings? Come on now.

Personally I think it is either willful ignorance or something worse...

And as far as "step on a crack, break your mother's back"...Read this: http://www.csicop.org/superstition/library/cracks/

I sure wish that article cited some sources. I'd like to see just a bit of justification for what they say.

I'm not a linguist (oh yoo hoo resident linguist) but I've read and noted myself that a lot of rhyming structures, like melodic structures fit into some sort of set of comfortable or pleasing patterns. Those are the real archetypes in my view.

Jack and Jill went up the hill;
To fetch a pail of water.

Jack fell down and broke his crown;
and Jill came tumbling after.

There's a slight elongation of wa- and af- both finished by a clearly terminating -ter. There is is also a regular and particular rhythmic and somewhat melodic pattern in both verses. It's hard to write about these things, particularly with no specialized notation, but if you repeat them aloud, it's pretty obvious.

Compare "Step on a crack, you'll break your mama's back" as I heard that as a kid with the slightly less pleasing "Step on a crack; break your mother's back" as suggested in that article and the completely unmusical "Step on a crack and your mother will turn black" they claim that's derived from. I can't even find a pleasing variation on the last one. Dropping the "and" helps, but "will turn" just doesn't fit the rhythmic pattern and there's no pleasing melody. Yes, of course those things are subjective and cultural, but keep humming "Jack and Jill" and see if it doesn't have a certain "something."

I'm skeptical of their suggested origin because its sticking power would have as much to do with its song like nature as with the subject matter. It's lacking the things that make "Jack and Jill" so sticky. I also find it very hard to believe that something so primitive has such a recent origin. I'm not going to buy that explanation without some real evidence.
 
Let's just start with the fact that they are possibly going to have sex? I remain dumbfounded about this.

I read a comment somewhere in this thread I think early on by a local who was friends with Mark, this person seemed to have made it pretty clear that Emma ran the household, whatever she wanted she got. So it probably wasnt a matter of mom giving permission for Sam to stay there but Emma telling mom that was what was gonna happen and that she was gonna pick him up at the airport and bring him home.

Such a situation with a teen running the household is probably foreign to many of us who are parents but I have seen it with my own eyes with friends of mine and it is very ugly and once you allow to get to that point as a parent there isnt much you can do to change it, youve made the bed and you have to sleep in it, created a monster and have to deal with it. This often happens in single parent homes where the remaining parent feels guilty about the split and pretty much gives the kid whatever they want to make up for it, after a few years of that sort of twisted relationship there is no going back, the child is the parent and the parent is the child and without some serious intervention there really isnt anything that can be done about it. I picture Debra working a lot and Emma home all day by herself, homeschooled and pretty much doing whatever the hell she wanted and when and if mom tried to put her foot down it was simply too late in the game.

How else do you explain these parents letting Sam stay there and them driving her all over the country to these horrorcore gatherings, we have evidence that Emma and Mel had been to several of them and SFTW wasnt her first. I can see a parent driving the kid an hour to a concert but to go to several of these types of gatherings hundreds and hundreds of miles away strikes me less of supportive parents and more of the kid telling them they are taking her and thats just how its going to be.
 
Blou, you've made this semiotics based argument before. I think it has some merit actually and warrants a more detailed response than I have time to give at the moment. However, in brief, there are three aspects that I think you are failing to consider.

First, there is the action of the unconscious and the collective unconscious which can endow a symbol with meaning even if the detailed symbolism is not consciously known. This is why some attendees to the Chi-burnings describe them as "scary" or "spooky" despite likely not understanding the symbols being presented to them.

The second point is the evolution of the situation due to the Internet. The Internet enables all known meanings of a symbol to be retrieved easily including those meanings that are outmoded, no longer in use or unusual. This changes everything because in a sense meanings can never be lost or outmoded now. I think this largely renders your argument obsolete.

Finally, remember that with occult symbols the meanings have often existed as esoteric knowledge for thousands of years. These meanings have not been lost, they are well known and have been known, but only to those who spend the time to learn and can now see.

More later...

I hope your "more later" will address the points I raised rather than ignore them.
 
I think our world RAPIDLY became a different place... a more dangerous place.

I agree that Emma probably had a great deal of control (I've seen it happen with divorced parents) but Tapu brings up a most interesting idea...that Emma was so accustomed to being in control and she obviously hated her parents and perhaps she used Sam to hurt them. Emma may have been the type who can peg a doormat and just maybe she was so hardened the core, she was a great manipulator ~ we don't know. Maybe that is why those who really knew Sam are so perplexed as to how he could have done this and are inferring that he was under the influence of...yeah someone other than Shirm.

What about Mel? Is it possible that Emma was jealous or maybe she just had an all-around disregard for the lives of others? In the scenario that two died first, it could have been Mom and Mel and I get Mom, but am having issues with Mel.

I also think it’s possible that the report was incorrect or maybe that the girls were killed first and it took a day for Debra to figure it out, at which time Sam had to do her in too.

I do very much appreciate the info. on Farmville and the link between 505 etc. I think it is simply fascinating and tend to believe in bad juju and dark spirits and the possibility that Sam and Emma seemed very susceptible to the influences thereof. Not Mel so much. For some reason I read all of her hardcore profiles and look at her pictures and I can’t get a grip on the dark side of her. I feel like I can see it in Emma however – and of course that’s the very non-scientific, (or scientifical as I like to say but don’t want to cause emotional distress to The Tapu) and purely intuitional conclusion based on ziggy’s gut feelings.

Could Emma have been influenced by her occult involvement and the bad juju at 505 1st?

Does anyone know for sure how long Mark and Debra had been separated?

I recall reading something like one year in the news and then hearing something different from a local here. Sorry can't recall the specifics.

Even if you forget all the unexplained connections, here's a concrete example of how the social situation in Farmville had a role to play in these deaths.

Both Emma and Sam were teased in school and were later home schooled. The conditions in Farmville and the schools there that led to Emma being bullied were another contributing factor here therefore. Perhaps this was not as big of a factor as Dr. Kelly's decision to allow Sam to stay in her home, but nonetheless I contend that Sam and Emma would have been much less likely to connect had this bullying not occurred.

This aspect takes on new poignancy for me this week after viewing that Juggalo bullying video that was posted here and made the rounds on the Internet as well. And it leads me to wonder what sorts of videos Emma would have made if she had owned a camera back then. Was she bullied by jocks and preppies? it seems that outcast social groups like Juggalos and Emo kids are often in conflict with these more parentally acceptable social groups. Or was it Emma doing the bullying? Arguably that seems compatible with her Vampire Freaks profile to be frank.
 
Blou, you've made this semiotics based argument before. I think it has some merit actually and warrants a more detailed response than I have time to give at the moment. However, in brief, there are three aspects that I think you are failing to consider.

First, there is the action of the unconscious and the collective unconscious which can endow a symbol with meaning even if the detailed symbolism is not consciously known. This is why some attendees to the Chi-burnings describe them as "scary" or "spooky" despite likely not understanding the symbols being presented to them.

The second point is the evolution of the situation due to the Internet. The Internet enables all known meanings of a symbol to be retrieved easily including those meanings that are outmoded, no longer in use or unusual. This changes everything because in a sense meanings can never be lost or outmoded now. I think this largely renders your argument obsolete.

Finally, remember that with occult symbols the meanings have often existed as esoteric knowledge for thousands of years. These meanings have not been lost, they are well known and have been known, but only to those who spend the time to learn and can now see.

More later...



In fact the occult symbols were used to PRESERVE certain knowledge in a hidden esoteric and symbolic language so that it could not be destroyed by the church which had a habit of burning books with things in them that they didnt agree with, so the original secret societies hid this knowledge that the church didnt approve of in SYMBOLS and incorporated those symbols in to BUILDINGS and even GAMES like a deck of tarot cards so that this knowledge would be preserved for future generations and never destroyed. This is why if you join an occult secret society the first thing you will be taught is the meaning of these symbols because to the trained and initiated eye they tell a story, much like a book with words.

If your eyes are trained and initiated properly you can look at a middle ages cathedral and it will read like a story book of occult philosophy because these masons were part of the secret guilds who had this knowledge and they hid it right under the churches nose by incorporating their hidden occult symbols right in to the buildings themselves. Most catholics dont know it but the buildings they attend church in every sunday are literally desiged in to shapes like a penis and a vagina but you have to have trained eyes to see it. I kid you not I dont make this stuff up. Ive spent a lifetime on this.

What pisses me off is I have been studying this stuff all my life and Dan Brown comes along and turns it in to a big joke with all his silly books and movies which I believe has the purpose of turning the truth which they cannot hide anymore in to entertainment so that can say "oh thats hollywood you cant take entertainment like that seriously."

The old switcheroo at work again.

Dont be fooled by Brown he isnt on our side he is working for them to keep it covered up by turning it in to mainstream entertainment so that those who speak of such things will be told they take their entertainment too seriously. The best place to hide something is right out in the ****ing open.
 
Signs and symbols only have the meanings that are assigned to them by convention. They do not exist in a world of their own where they have either significance or power. They exist as signs and symbols only by the implicit agreement of their users.

Take the word "cat" for instance. If any two of us, we all seem to be fluent in English, were to have a conversation about the fuzzy little pet that likes to push his way onto my lap while I'm at my computer, we could use the word "cat" to refer to him without any explanation or discussion of the word's meaning.

By convention, the word "cat" can refer to fuzzy little mammals of a particular type. We can modify it with any number of other words that are by convention allowable: "fuzzy cat", "my cat", "pain in the *advertiser censored* cat", etc.. Those meanings exist because we have a complex structure of which they are a part which has evolved to allow us to communicate with one another.

That structure itself only exists through the active participation of a particular group of people acting together in a particular context, at a particular time. None of those things are fixed, and actually are constantly in flux but they are all more or less necessary for any mark, object, sound, or collection of any of those to be a symbol or a sign.

"Cat" as described above is actually two different things, because I wrote of a conversation. The set of marks use to write "cat" is itself associated with the sound we use in conversation to refer to that animal again by convention only. It is also flexible, since we would likely still recognize it even if spoken in any of the wide range of accents that participants on this forum might have. That sound pronounced køt or kat, according to my Apple dictionary, could also be associated with spellings such at khat or ghat and could refer to any number of other things depending as usual on where, when, and among whom it's being used. If we prepend another descriptor, like Hobie to cat, we refer to a sailboat.

"Cat" then, we can easily see means nothing on its own. It has no history, it has no baggage. The same is true for signs and symbols in general. The chief distinction between signs and symbols is that signs are entirely abstract while symbols have some sort of recognizable relationship to what they are used to symbolize. A stop sign is a sign because there is nothing other than convention that associates red octagons with stopping. Red can be a symbol of sacrifice, because sacrifice not uncommonly involves the spilling of blood, blood is red, and so on.

It is also clear that stop signs have nothing to do, unless we were to go through some complex rhetorical gymnastics (of course not unknown in these parts), with sacrifice. Red then can be seen to carry no universal symbolic meaning. The same is true of any other symbols. Their meaning only exists by agreement. If we don't agree, they don't mean anything and they can't accidentally or unintentionally have meaning either.

Here's just a first point on this Blou. It is false that words are arbitrary and have no history. I don't know where you get this idea from. Words are tools and as such are artifacts constructed by human beings. They are similar in this way to pottery or sculpture or ...

And some words have more charged histories than others.

You give the example of cat, well cat has a quite interesting history in fact:

O.E. (c.700), from W.Gmc. (c.400-450), from P.Gmc. *kattuz, from L.L. cattus. The near-universal European word now, it appeared in Europe as L. catta (Martial, c.75 C.E.), Byzantine Gk. katta (c.350) and was in general use on the continent by c. 700, replacing L. feles. Probably ult. Afro-Asiatic (cf. Nubian kadis, Berber kadiska, both meaning "cat"). Arabic qitt "tomcat" may be from the same source. Cats were domestic in Egypt from c.2000 B.C.E., but not a familiar household animal to classical Greeks and Romans. The nine lives have been proverbial since at least 1560s. Extended to lions, tigers, etc. c.1600. As a term of contempt for a woman, from early 13c. Slang sense of "prostitute" is from at least c.1400. Slang sense of "fellow, guy," is from 1920, originally in U.S. Black Eng.; narrower sense of "jazz enthusiast" is recorded from 1931. Catnap is from 1823; catfish is from c.1620. Cat's-cradle is from 1768. Cat-o'-nine-tails (1690s), probably so called in reference to its "claws," was legal instrument of punishment in British Navy until 1881. Cat's paw (1769, but cat's foot in the same sense, 1597) refers to old folk tale in which the monkey tricks the cat into pawing chestnuts from a fire; the monkey gets the nuts, the cat gets a burnt paw. To rain cats and dogs (c.1652) is probably an extension of cats and dogs as proverbial for "strife, enmity" (1570s). Cat-witted "small-minded, obstinate, and spiteful" (1670s) deserved to survive. For Cat's meow, cat's pajamas, see bee's knees.


From http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=CAT

So it is with ALL words. This notion that words are without context and history is simply wrong.

Now as far as the symbols we are talking about here, occult symbols, as Pax mentions these are symbols that were specifically designed to carry esoteric meanings despite oppression of the beliefs behind them. These esoteric meanings have existed relatively intact for thousands of years.

Consider for example the use of Nazi symbols by Marilyn Manson.

And the ubiquitous Swastika? What does it mean?

swastikas.bmp


See also: http://www.azcentral.com/ent/celeb/articles/2009/06/06/20090606marilyn-manson-customises-hair.html
 
Point two: Some of the symbols here have clear and unambiguous meanings.

For example the use of a hood that covers the eyes. I challenge you to display any use of such a mask or hood other than for a person about to be executed typically at a gallows or by firing squad.

Further the hoods used by Chi obviously resemble those used by the KKK a resemblance which is reinforced by the use of the same color schemes for the University and the racist secret society.

Even if someone is mysteriously unaware of these obvious meanings, the notion of being blinded or bound and blindfolded evokes a primal fear. And not without good reason.

Bonfires are used at a wide variety of religious and cultural events around the world. In some cases an effigy is burned, while in others it is simply a large pile of wood or junk. For example in the United States, homecoming is often celebrated with a bonfire. Bonfires are historically associated with the Guy Fawkes Night in England. Other examples would be "The Man" at Burning Man, beach bonfires, etc.

Here we have an event which is specifically called a "Chi Burning"...
 
Tapu, would you allow your children to listen to horrorcore?

I never had that problem, my girls are responsible and the only thing I would have to worry about is what jcrew outfit they wanted to save for next. Which dance or art school they wanted to attend. I was so busy in their lives I never had to doubt them. I was a lucky mom.
My girls are different than Em. Call my girls preppy.

Yes, I think I would allow that. We were talking about letting an adult, into horrorcore, whom my child met on the internet, come sleep in my home with us. And that is what I am saying I would not permit. Some have suggested that Debra Kelley may have believed that Sam was closer to Emma's age. That kid wouldn't have been here in my house either.
 
Point two: Some of the symbols here have clear and unambiguous meanings.

For example the use of a hood that covers the eyes. I challenge you to display any use of such a mask or hood other than for a person about to be executed typically at a gallows or by firing squad.

Further the hoods used by Chi obviously resemble those used by the KKK a resemblance which is reinforced by the use of the same color schemes for the University and the racist secret society.

Even if someone is mysteriously unaware of these obvious meanings, the notion of being blinded or bound and blindfolded evokes a primal fear. And not without good reason.

Bonfires are used at a wide variety of religious and cultural events around the world. In some cases an effigy is burned, while in others it is simply a large pile of wood or junk. For example in the United States, homecoming is often celebrated with a bonfire. Bonfires are historically associated with the Guy Fawkes Night in England. Other examples would be "The Man" at Burning Man, beach bonfires, etc.

Here we have an event which is specifically called a "Chi Burning"...
Consider the Freemason practice/ritual of the first degree called "Hoodwinked"

mason_noose.jpg


Blindfolded with noose around neck.
 
"Don't Judge A Man Until You've Walked Two Moons In His Moccasins " ~From the Book Walk Two Moons
My youngest daughter goes every summer with her bf and his parents the Outer Banks, NC I have no problem with this, would you?
BTW, his mother, is a Dr. at LU. Wanna guess what department? His dad is a Dr there too, he is pt!
 
Consider the Freemason practice/ritual of the first degree called "Hoodwinked"

mason_noose.jpg


Blindfolded with noose around neck.

Again showing the connection between the eyes being covered and the gallows.
 
"Don't Judge A Man Until You've Walked Two Moons In His Moccasins " ~From the Book Walk Two Moons
My youngest daughter goes every summer with her bf and his parents the Outer Banks, NC I have no problem with this, would you?
BTW, his mother, is a Dr. at LU. Wanna guess what department? His dad is a Dr there too, he is pt!

Seems like you've met and know the parents which is an entirely different situation than the one with Dr. Kelly and Sam McCroskey.
 
Would I let a 20 year old man fly in to visit my 16 year old daughter? After this, absolutely not. I could say I wouldn't have even if i never heard this story, but I don't have a child.

Do I judge Debra for doing so? Of course not.
 
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