GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #5

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Hi all,

I just wanted to give some CPS perspective from a former caseworker. I think I said this in a previous thread but I used to work for CPS outside of a large city for a while before I had kids. I left because the system was so messed up and there is way too much legal tape to get through to keep kids safe (imo). In many cases, parents were given too many chances. It was a never ending cycle.

In regards to how my experience working at CPS relates to this case, we received a call after a child was killed under suspicious circumstances while under the care of the boyfriend. I'm trying to be vague but basically, we had no involvement with the family and had no reports on them before the incident occurred. I was the caseworker assigned and there was a young baby in the home as well. Even though the mom wasn't home when the suspicious death occurred, there was drug paraphernalia in the home and out of an abundance of caution, a decision was made by myself and my supervisor to remove the infant from the mothers care until more information could be gathered. Thankfully there was a suitable relative (somewhat distant relative but still they volunteered and you are supposed to look at family as a safety plan first) who we ran a thorough background check on that kept the baby until we could get more information. A relative ended up petitioning for custody and the family court system took it from there. when doing a risk assessment if there's a threat of immediate harm or endangerment a child must be removed. Obviously thats what happened in this case.

In terms of CPS being involved with families already and something like this happening, let's just say this is another reason i left. I could never sleep at night, always worried about kids who we didn't have enough to remove and could only go visit once or twice a week. If it's neglect, like parents on drugs, poor living conditions, children left unsupervised, etc...it is not always easy to get a court order to take children into protective custody. The parents have so many rights, and they are given court appointed attorneys that the county or state pays for to represent them at any CPS related court proceedings. It's just a very sad and broken system. With all that being said, there were plenty of people i worked with who were incompetent, going so far as to skip home visits and turn in fake reports about a home visit that never occurred just so they could leave work early, and more...it's a very difficult job and at least where I lived it seemed like they would hire anyone. I'm not sure what level of involvement CPS had in this case but this would be my worst nightmare and was one of the reasons i left.

Sorry about the long post, just trying to give some perspective from my time working at CPS. If you want to read about the ultimate disgrace I have ever heard about involving CPS, read this report on Danieal (pronounced Danielle) Kelly. It's very graphic but it shows just how bad the system can be.

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/Grand_jury_DHS_new.pdf
 
According to Sheriff Davis's statement on the day of the arrests, the baby was taken from the home on Monday, the day after Noah was reported missing.

Not to diminish USA Today, but I think the local papers that have been covering this all along are more faithful to the facts as they are getting them first hand. It seems as the story rolls further and further out from the source, and more MSM outlets pick it up from previous ones, the inaccuracies increase. It's like that old fashioned game "Telephone" where the story changes a little every time it is passed on.

http://pcpatriot.com/?p=13684
Thank you for the link~ It answered one of my questions:

snip:
Statement of Pulaski County Commonwealth’s Attorney K. Mike Fleenor:

Ashley Jennifer White and Paul Raymond Thomas were arrested today on felony warrants for the abuse and neglect of their child, Noah Terry Thomas. They were also arrested for the abuse and neglect of their surviving infant child, Abigail Thomas.

These charges are based on the information and the evidence that we have at this time. As has been previously stated by Sheriff Davis, the autopsy of Noah Thomas is not complete
 
What's the latest on this case? Any new news? Did we find out more about the charges and what happened to poor Noah?
 
Hi all,

I just wanted to give some CPS perspective from a former caseworker. I think I said this in a previous thread but I used to work for CPS outside of a large city for a while before I had kids. I left because the system was so messed up and there is way too much legal tape to get through to keep kids safe (imo). In many cases, parents were given too many chances. It was a never ending cycle.

In regards to how my experience working at CPS relates to this case, we received a call after a child was killed under suspicious circumstances while under the care of the boyfriend. I'm trying to be vague but basically, we had no involvement with the family and had no reports on them before the incident occurred. I was the caseworker assigned and there was a young baby in the home as well. Even though the mom wasn't home when the suspicious death occurred, there was drug paraphernalia in the home and out of an abundance of caution, a decision was made by myself and my supervisor to remove the infant from the mothers care until more information could be gathered. Thankfully there was a suitable relative (somewhat distant relative but still they volunteered and you are supposed to look at family as a safety plan first) who we ran a thorough background check on that kept the baby until we could get more information. A relative ended up petitioning for custody and the family court system took it from there. when doing a risk assessment if there's a threat of immediate harm or endangerment a child must be removed. Obviously thats what happened in this case.

In terms of CPS being involved with families already and something like this happening, let's just say this is another reason i left. I could never sleep at night, always worried about kids who we didn't have enough to remove and could only go visit once or twice a week. If it's neglect, like parents on drugs, poor living conditions, children left unsupervised, etc...it is not always easy to get a court order to take children into protective custody. The parents have so many rights, and they are given court appointed attorneys that the county or state pays for to represent them at any CPS related court proceedings. It's just a very sad and broken system. With all that being said, there were plenty of people i worked with who were incompetent, going so far as to skip home visits and turn in fake reports about a home visit that never occurred just so they could leave work early, and more...it's a very difficult job and at least where I lived it seemed like they would hire anyone. I'm not sure what level of involvement CPS had in this case but this would be my worst nightmare and was one of the reasons i left.

Sorry about the long post, just trying to give some perspective from my time working at CPS. If you want to read about the ultimate disgrace I have ever heard about involving CPS, read this report on Danieal (pronounced Danielle) Kelly. It's very graphic but it shows just how bad the system can be.

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/Grand_jury_DHS_new.pdf

Thank you. And as a former CASA volunteer, I know where you are coming from.

It is a Sisyphean task to meet the needs of children at risk and in the system.

IMO, the children remain pawns and they lose over and over again. While adults retain their "rights" to the children they have irreparably harmed. It still hurts my heart, the things I have seen.
 
The two most troubling facts in this case are that the mother admits she went to sleep and that the child was found in a septic tank. It is unrealistic to believe opinions will wait on more "facts."

In order to form an opinion, does one base it on fact or rumor? I don't believe it's unrealistic at all. IMO at this moment the parents were only arrested on abuse and nelegct. Nothing more. And IMO until more "facts" are released from LE thru their dept., or MSM I believe that's all the facts I have to base my opinion on.
 
In order to form an opinion, does one base it on fact or rumor? I don't believe it's unrealistic at all. IMO at this moment the parents were only arrested on abuse and nelegct. Nothing more. And IMO until more "facts" are released from LE thru their dept., or MSM I believe that's all the facts I have to base my opinion on.

While I agree with your statement that the charges are not indicative of what many of us suspect, I will say there are some here who are pitchfork-ready for the Thomas family while defending the Stanley family.

MOO is that the only difference thus far is that no Stanley children have died because of abuse or murder.

So my honest question is to those of you who defend the Stanley family; are you waiting for one of their children to end up dead in a septic tank before you get out yer pitchforks, by God?

This is an honest question. Why wait for a child to die before becoming outraged? Some of you are defending one whilst condemning the other.

Is it really because religion makes beating a child okay? I truly hope not.

Good night, lovely friends. And RIP all those children who suffered and then died. :(
 
OT: There are OCS workers that are awesome. In my former life, I was a case manager for intervention program for school-aged children and their families. Our program offered individual and family counseling, parenting classes, anger management for children and their parents. Many of our families were involved with mental health services, court system and OCS. I had numerous reports to OCS often with valid complaints and/or building a preponderance of evidence for future reference. I called the OCS worker assigned to a family that I was working with. Mom and Dad were drunks who drove with the kids in the car. The teacher called me to report that she didn't allow the student to get in the car because the mom had alcohol on her breath. I placed an emergency call to the OCS worker reporting the incident. The worker tried to explain that mom no longer drinks but her body exudes the alcohol smell. After a few inappropriate words from my mouth, I told the worker that he better have medical records documenting that issue. I called the supervisor to report my concerns. Months later, mom showed up to court. The judge questioned the mom about AA and her sponsor. The judge called the sponsor while on the bench. Before the end of the hearing, mom pulled out a 1/2 pint of gin.
 
According to arrest warrants filed in*Pulaski County Juvenile and Domestic Relations Court, Ashley White showed "reckless disregard for human life," and "caused serious injuries." In the report it also said "Incident ultimately led to Noah's death," and "Cause or permit to life or health of child by a willfull act, omission, or refusal to provide necessary care." Court records also indicate White worked at Patty's Kitchen.*

Arrests warrants also stated Paul Thomas "showed reckless disregard for human life," and also said the "incident led to Noah's death." Court documents say Thomas worked at Phoenix Packaging.


http://www.wsls.com/story/28706014/...ide-update-on-noah-thomas-death-investigation

This article specifically states that the arrest warrants for the current charges indicate the abuse and neglect involved LED TO NOAH'S DEATH.
 
http://www.wsls.com/story/28706014/...ide-update-on-noah-thomas-death-investigation

This article specifically states that the arrest warrants for the current charges indicate the abuse and neglect involved LED TO NOAH'S DEATH.

And to the left of the article at the link you posted, it shows their charges are A & B. Felonies. And gives how many years they face if convicted of those charges. This IMO is not a murder charge they are being held for. Thank you, I'll just wait for more to come out before I convict them of murder.
 
No one is convicting them of murder, at least not that I have seen here. But I think it is pretty closet to certain they will be charged in relation to his death. Jmo
 
And to the left of the article at the link you posted, it shows their charges are A & B. Felonies. And gives how many years they face if convicted of those charges. This IMO is not a murder charge they are being held for. Thank you, I'll just wait for more to come out before I convict them of murder.

I didn't say they are charged with murder. I am providing info as requested to explain why people have reached the conclusion, based on factual information available in MSM provided by LE, that Noah's parents are responsible for his death in some way. At this time it is unknown specifically in what way, but it is not unreasonable for people commenting here to be placing blame on the parents, as LE has clearly done the same.
 
At my prior home, it was in the city, and had city sewer. YET something was wrong with the lines connecting to the city system and my house as well as neighbors often had complaints to the city about it. It would back up into the bathtub, and be pure sewage and stink worse than a pig pen! It was horrific. Once it overflowed my toilet, and was all in the bathroom. Sometimes the city would find dead wildlife in the pipe that had entered from the rain holes that also goes into the city waste water. Sometimes feral cats would be in there, and other times they didn't tell us what the problem was, but would come out, and clear the lines like you do a septic with the big tank truck.

I don't think little Noah would have sunk all the way to the bottom of the tank to block any lines, though I guess it's a possibility. It's possible some items of clothing were thrown in with him, and they sunk the bottom, or a shoe came off and sunk to the bottom. The guy that actually saw little Noah in the tank said it was about half drained when he saw him.

I'm no pro on septic systems!! I do know there is a layer of sludge or waste, water, and lots of bacteria in them. As long as the bacteria level is high enough to break down the waste, everything seems to work OK. As for lingering odors, as I mentioned when we bought this home, the septic had recently been pumped out, and the elderly couple didn't live here, only stayed maybe a weekend every few months. The bacteria level hadn't gotten to what it needed to be, and the vent on top of the roof that comes from the bathroom is where the odor was coming from. It wasn't at the septic tank itself, but you knew it was septic odor. It did linger, but that could be because it was constantly being released through that vent, I don't know as again, I'm not a pro in that dept. ;)

In the front of the house though, you didn't smell it. Only at the back of house where the bathroom is on the back side of the house, and that vent on the roof is on the back side of the house. Didn't smell it from the driveway, or anywhere else in the yard, just near the back door, and bathroom area.

I kept hoping little Noah was dead before he was in the septic. Although that means someone else harmed him, the idea of him being in that awful place just gives me nightmares. I pray the autopsy and toxicology will have enough facts to support whatever happened to Noah. I don't want an inconclusive result either way.

Someone asked about the parents being at home, I thought I read they had been at the home and police wanted them there until a day or so before Noah was found, and at that time they were at a motel/hotel. Maybe I'm confusing cases, but I truly thought I saw a video or photo of the place they were for the last day or so. Please don't take it for fact, because I could be wrong. If someone sees a link about that, help me out here!!!
 
http://www.wsls.com/story/28706014/...ide-update-on-noah-thomas-death-investigation

This article specifically states that the arrest warrants for the current charges indicate the abuse and neglect involved LED TO NOAH'S DEATH.

The article you linked to states, "White and Thomas currently face two counts each of abuse and neglect of Noah and Abigail."

----

The Commonwealth Attorney (equivalent to a DA), Mike Fleenor, said his statement to the press the day the arrests were announced, stated, "Ashley Jennifer White and Paul Raymond Thomas were arrested today on felony warrants for the abuse and neglect of their child, Noah Terry Thomas. They were also arrested for the abuse and neglect of their surviving infant child, Abigail Thomas."

---

I guess I don't understand what you are emphasizing in your post. Yes, the negligence led to Noah's death. That could mean they created an unsafe environment, they permitted something to happen through inaction, or their actions directly led to his death. Are you getting at possible murder, or the bond issue, or whether or not the charges were just for Noah or both children?
 
January was last time Uncle Jason got to see Noah, one quote by aunt K, was strange. JMO, Hope it was out of context... she says she just knows Noah was scared????:

snip:
Jason Thomas said police will let everyone know what happened when the investigation is completed.

“I just want people to stop saying negative stuff … because his parents are great parents and they’re devastated,” he said. “Keep them in your prayers.”

Thomas said Noah being found dead was his brother’s worst nightmare and now it has come true.

“They were thick as thieves,” Ide said of Noah’s and Paul’s relationship.

Thomas added, “His (Noah’s) nickname was chunk. I just hope he’s up in heaven with our mom, looking over us.”

He said the last time he got to see Noah was in January, and added, “I just wish I could see him and hug him again. I want to know what happened and I want to know he didn’t suffer. I hope not.”

Both Ide and Thomas found out about Noah’s death just minutes after his body was found.

“It’s so hard to even think about. I just know he was scared,” Thomas said.

Ide added, “He just wanted Paul and Ashley.”
http://www.southwesttimes.com/2015/...tinue-to-cooperate-during-tragic-tragic-time/
 
January was last time Uncle Jason got to see Noah, one quote by aunt K, was strange. JMO, Hope it was out of context... she says she just knows Noah was scared????:

snip:
Jason Thomas said police will let everyone know what happened when the investigation is completed.

“I just want people to stop saying negative stuff … because his parents are great parents and they’re devastated,” he said. “Keep them in your prayers.”

Thomas said Noah being found dead was his brother’s worst nightmare and now it has come true.

“They were thick as thieves,” Ide said of Noah’s and Paul’s relationship.

Thomas added, “His (Noah’s) nickname was chunk. I just hope he’s up in heaven with our mom, looking over us.”

He said the last time he got to see Noah was in January, and added, “I just wish I could see him and hug him again. I want to know what happened and I want to know he didn’t suffer. I hope not.”

Both Ide and Thomas found out about Noah’s death just minutes after his body was found.

“It’s so hard to even think about. I just know he was scared,” Thomas said.

Ide added, “He just wanted Paul and Ashley.”
http://www.southwesttimes.com/2015/...tinue-to-cooperate-during-tragic-tragic-time/

That is the 4th time I have read that article and something new pops out at me each time. I agree their statements don't quite jive with the reality of what happened but I am not sure it means they know anything, either. The thing that bothered me most was the sentence at the end of her quote. "Ide added, “He just wanted Paul and Ashley.”" ???

The other thing that stands out to me this time reading is the info about the changing timeline. The last timeline they put out had her seeing him at 10:30 and calling LE at 11:30? I thought she called at 11:00? Sheriff Davis attrbutes the changes to the frenzy of the initial investigation but now looking at it...it seems messy (not his investigation...the story in general).
 
Respectfully snipped
2Hope4 I don't think little Noah would have sunk all the way to the bottom of the tank to block any lines, though I guess it's a possibility. It's possible some items of clothing were thrown in with him, and they sunk the bottom, or a shoe came off and sunk to the bottom. The guy that actually saw little Noah in the tank said it was about half drained when he saw him.

After reading much online, and asking family members, I don't think the pipes are at the bottom of the tank. Also the guy saw Noah when tank half drained also is what got me to thinking about possibility of the tank filling faster than normal.. extra mass ... and/or something getting in way of the drain pipes. Also, I don't feel that Noah was on the bottom of the tank either, to have seen his clothing as guy said in video... remember this water is not clear... The scum on top, Lord knows what it looks like, and why they called to have it drained by professional.. have idea but not gonna Google that image.... Also there are 2 diff kinds of tanks. One with a single compartment and another with 2 compartments.
septic tank.jpgsewer 2.JPG
 
I have also been thinking a lot about what happened with AW and PT after Baby A was taken away but before Noah was found.

There have been tid bits we can draw conclusions from but nothing firm. I am especially interested in the "lockdown" of the house. LE monitored them but did not restrict their movements. However, towards the end, (the last day?), LE would not permit anyone to go in to the house.

Is that tantamount to house arrest?

I think Davis knew from Sunday or at least Monday onward that something wasn't adding up. They would have to have cause to remove the baby. He would have to be able to justify keeping them in their home and keeping others out. Whether accidental or intentional, I am leaning more and more to believing that Davis was working a strategy. And I think allowing them to attend the funeral was a part of that strategy. And I think he already knows what happened but in his ever careful way, he is not going to let one word slip before he deems it appropriate and can back it up.
 
I have also been thinking a lot about what happened with AW and PT after Baby A was taken away but before Noah was found.

There have been tid bits we can draw conclusions from but nothing firm. I am especially interested in the "lockdown" of the house. LE monitored them but did not restrict their movements. However, towards the end, (the last day?), LE would not permit anyone to go in to the house.
Is that tantamount to house arrest?

I think Davis knew from Sunday or at least Monday onward that something wasn't adding up. They would have to have cause to remove the baby. He would have to be able to justify keeping them in their home and keeping others out. Whether accidental or intentional, I am leaning more and more to believing that Davis was working a strategy. And I think allowing them to attend the funeral was a part of that strategy. And I think he already knows what happened but in his ever careful way, he is not going to let one word slip before he deems it appropriate and can back it up.

BBM: the comment posted here, on the first thread, stated on MONDAY (it was posted Monday around 4pm iirc anyways) that weren't letting public in the house. That time and date is set here, so it was stated long before Noah was found. Could it be the Parents way of not letting the public know that the infant was no longer in their custody (speaking of what the friend said was told on Monday). Do we know for certain that LEO restricted anyone in the home?
 
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