GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #6

[JeannaT]

Actual charges

Do you have those charges, Schmaley? I was looking for them earlier and couldn't find a reference. The reason I wanted them, was to look at them and see if there is a "misdemeanor" classification - neglect that doesn't lead to harm vs. neglect that leads to substantial harm or death. It seems to me Virginia (and probably most states) treat parents who engage in the exact same behavior differently, depending on the outcome of their neglect, not the degree of their neglect.

So for example, you could be charged with felony neglect for going to the grocery store and leaving your 3 year old at home alone, if the 3 year old drowns or ingests poison while you are gone. But you could go to the movie and out to eat and leave your 3 year old alone at home, and if the child is absolutely fine when you return you'd be very unlikely to be charged with a serious crime - you'd get a misdemeanor or the attention of CPS that requires parenting classes. So it seems your behavior could be more neglectful, but if you got very lucky and the child was fine, the courts would treat you differently.

 

[ANonyMs]

Do you have those charges, Schmaley? I was looking for them earlier and couldn't find a reference. The reason I wanted them, was to look at them and see if there is a "misdemeanor" classification - neglect that doesn't lead to harm vs. neglect that leads to substantial harm or death. It seems to me Virginia (and probably most states) treat parents who engage in the exact same behavior differently, depending on the outcome of their neglect, not the degree of their neglect.

JeannaT, I thought you might find this helpful. Scroll about 1/4 way down to begin the tables for "Family Offenses"
http://www.scb.virginia.gov/scbvcc/VCC12.HTML

Edited to add: Since that page says to also refer to "Dangerous Conduct", here is that link, too. Scroll almost all the way down.
http://www.scb.virginia.gov/scbvcc/VCC11.HTML

 

[CatsInTheCradle]

http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/p...cle_16355b8b-6e9d-5408-b5f5-52697738366e.html

White, 30, was charged under two different subsections of the law. One charge, like Thomas’, relates to “reckless disregard for human life” and carries with it the same punishment. However, she is also being charged under a more serious subsection that is a Class 4 felony and is punishable by no less than two years and no more than 10 years.
That subsection involves “serious injuries” to a child that were received under an adult’s care. Those injuries, as defined by state code, include “disfigurement, a fracture, a severe burn or laceration, mutilation, maiming, forced ingestion of dangerous substances, or life threatening internal injuries.”
In court Wednesday, Fleenor said that White is charged with that section because “it is the commonwealth’s theory that neglect resulted in the death of a child.”
“We know unfortunately that Noah Thomas is deceased,” Fleenor said during White’s hearing. “He is deceased and is the subject of one of these warrants,” referring to the more serious charge.

(BBM)

Did I misunderstand your post? Were referring to the actual charges as laid out in the Viginia code?

Thank you ANonyMs. The link and article has been posted numerous times so I didn't think it would be challenged. Thanks again.

 

[CatsInTheCradle]

Either -- I absolutely realize that it is obvious that, due to neglect, poor Noah lost his life. We don't know *for sure* when Noah went missing. All we know that it occurred between the time when he was seen on surveillance camera the prior evening and when AW called LE. We don't know *why* she was napping - she could have taken cold medicine, she could have fallen asleep while nursing baby (she was breastfeeding), she could have been exhausted due to circumstances that we don't know, or she could have just taken a nap because she felt like it. We don't know if Noah's disappearance was a result of being left home unattended, his mother's "nap," or something all together different.

All I'm saying is that, as a mother, I find it more likely to be neglect due to poor decisions -- not neglect -- or worse -- due to not caring or not loving her child.

I realize that I may be completely off base with my feelings, logic, reasoning, etc. However, based on what I've been told by my relative who knew Noah very well (and his parents) since birth and was close to the family, along with how I view the world (perhaps with rose colored glasses), I just can't see how it was in any way malicious.

BBM - I so hope that you are right - that he was loved for the short time he was here.

 

[CatsInTheCradle]

The severity of the charges and denial of bond, along with the judge's statements, for me, in no way support the idea that the neglect was resulting from poor decisions. And if they were loving wonderful parents, we would have to believe that this was ONE poor decision. It doesn't make sense, to me, anyway. Just my opinion, of course.


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This is exactly where I am on this case right now (BBM). An accident where parents were not charged with neglect of any kind was the tragic death of LeRoy Toppins. Yet LeRoy was found dead and the parents were not watching him at that moment. JMO

 

[JeannaT]

JeannaT, I thought you might find this helpful. Scroll about 1/4 way down to begin the tables for "Family Offenses"
http://www.scb.virginia.gov/scbvcc/VCC12.HTML

Edited to add: Since that page says to also refer to "Dangerous Conduct", here is that link, too. Scroll almost all the way down.
http://www.scb.virginia.gov/scbvcc/VCC11.HTML

Thanks, Anony. I saw the charge, "abuse and neglect, serious injury" which seems to be an enormous "umbrella" of charges. You could have a parent who withdraws food and water, locks them in a closet, beats them until they starve to death OR it seems neglecting supervision and having your child fall into a septic tank would all be appropriately charged with that "umbrella" term. I guess all we can really do is wait, until the details come out.

 

[JeannaT]

This is exactly where I am on this case right now (BBM). An accident where parents were not charged with neglect of any kind was the tragic death of LeRoy Toppins. Yet LeRoy was found dead and the parents were not watching him at that moment. JMO

I think a key difference here, is in LeRoy's case, the parents intent was to supervise him. Both parents believed he was being supervised by the other, and neither saw him wander off toward the pond.

 

[technicolor dreams]

http://www.southwesttimes.com/2015/04/noahs-father-takes-shot-at-bond-appeal/

"Paul Raymond Thomas is to appear in circuit court at 9:30 a.m. Monday to take a shot at getting a bond set so he might be able to get out of New River Valley Regional Jail"

 

[JeannaT]

Wow. I can't believe an MSM article is using such informal language. "Take a shot at getting bail"?

Sorry, don't mean to distract. I'm just a fan of the English language, and appropriate use.

 

[mpnola]

One of the most recent articles stated that the baby was taken because there was an UNTREATED serious respiratory issues. If mom came home with medicine, I dont think they would take the child for being untreated. I can bet the police have children and know kids get sick, The fact that the baby was taken tells me this was something more than a little sick- it was life-threatening and UNTREATED. Thats my take on it.

 

[Luvrosco]

One of the most recent articles stated that the baby was taken because there was an UNTREATED serious respiratory issues. If mom came home with medicine, I dont think they would take the child for being untreated. I can bet the police have children and know kids get sick, The fact that the baby was taken tells me this was something more than a little sick- it was life-threatening and UNTREATED. Thats my take on it.

Yes, I think so,too.

 

[Queen Bee]

please forgive me if this has been posted......i just came across it......

http://www.wsls.com/story/28894591/father-of-noah-thomas-to-appeal-bond

Paul Thomas, father of the late Noah Thomas, is appealing a decision from juvenile and domestic relations court to deny him bond.

His appeal will be heard in circuit court at 9:30 Monday morning.
-----------

guess it's daddy's turn :facepalm:

:rose: noah

 

[tracecomp]

Re the Septic tank - If the septic tank was uncovered/open/not secure and not temporarily fenced or safely covered due to maintenance then the landlord of the property would be liable for leaving a hazard on his property. If it was open I would think some charges would be brought against the landlord for negligence causing death.

I doubt it was left unsecured/open, but I wonder why LE are not answering that question and makes me think are they protecting somebody or the landlord by not answering the septic tank being uncovered/open?

Either way leaving your children home alone unsupervised is negligent. I just wish LE would confirm status of the tank opening when they first searched.

 

[Schmaley]

One of the most recent articles stated that the baby was taken because there was an UNTREATED serious respiratory issues. If mom came home with medicine, I dont think they would take the child for being untreated. I can bet the police have children and know kids get sick, The fact that the baby was taken tells me this was something more than a little sick- it was life-threatening and UNTREATED. Thats my take on it.

I wouldn't be so sure. There is so much that is pure speculation in this case that I don't know why anything has been handled like it has.

 

[ANonyMs]

Wow. I can't believe an MSM article is using such informal language. "Take a shot at getting bail"?

Sorry, don't mean to distract. I'm just a fan of the English language, and appropriate use.

I couldn't agree more. I know it is OT, but I feel like I have seen it a lot in this case.

 

[Luvrosco]

When LE called the septic tank person,he said he took off the cover. So even if Noah fell into accidentally because the cover was off someone had to put it back on. IMO, it wasn't an accident,though.

 

[ANonyMs]

One of the most recent articles stated that the baby was taken because there was an UNTREATED serious respiratory issues. If mom came home with medicine, I dont think they would take the child for being untreated. I can bet the police have children and know kids get sick, The fact that the baby was taken tells me this was something more than a little sick- it was life-threatening and UNTREATED. Thats my take on it.

If you get a chance, I would love a link for that article. I would like to see if it was attributed to Fleenor or if it was editorial exposition.

While my personal thoughts tend to trend in a similar direction as yours, I feel like the MSM has been a little sloppy in their reporting of what Fleenor said in court. There are several different versions. I am firmly in the camp that *words matter*.

 

[ANonyMs]

Re the Septic tank
I doubt it was left unsecured/open, but I wonder why LE are not answering that question and makes me think are they protecting somebody or the landlord by not answering the septic tank being uncovered/open?

I would think one reason why they might not answer the question or release that information is to protect a potential future case against either the landlord, a septic repair company, the parents, or some other responsible individual. Why put that information out there now enabling a defendant to get a jump on their defense?

Another potential reason could be b/c they are sorting through statements by the other LE's that were present, professional SAR's, local volunteers, neighbors, etc. There was a LOT of activity at that scene and if we take Orlando Salinas's statement about the two men as even partially accurate, it would seem the scene was not secured quickly by LE. It would probably take a lot of time to sort through everything and figure out who searched what and when. I would guess they need to do that before assigning any responsibility.

 

[JeannaT]

When LE called the septic tank person,he said he took off the cover. So even if Noah fell into accidentally because the cover was off someone had to put it back on. IMO, it wasn't an accident,though.

When LE called the septic tank person, he was at least the second to lift the lid after Noah somehow got in there. The condition/placement of the lid, by the time the septic expert got there, really has no relation to how it was after Noah entered the tank. It had already been lifted and replaced after that.

 

[tamora1]

I couldn't agree more. I know it is OT, but I feel like I have seen it a lot in this case.

Re: the language used by the Southwest Times . . . That is a very small paper. It publishes only five times a week, and it doesn't have as many employees as the Roanoke Times, which is much larger.

However, the Southwest Times is attentive to local needs, and their reporters are "boots on the ground" for local meetings, breaking news, court cases, etc. Their articles might be more informal, but it's still a paper with strong community ties. At a time when so many local papers are dying out, I hope they stick around.

The informality may be irksome, but I think they're doing the best they can for keeping up with this case. I wouldn't have any reservations about citing them in relation to Noah Thomas.