GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #6

[ANonyMs]

The sister is a nurse I believe and had distanced herself from her sister well before this took place. So she is actually probably a wonderful placement for the baby. Familial love, no drug use, and has specialized medical training.

I hope that is true. If so, it would be the only bright spot in everything we have learned today.

 

[SweetnessFollows]

I am not surprised she was using but I am surprised she was using while pregnant. I seldom say what I actually think here. I sort of ride the fence and play both sides for the sake of discussion. I thought they were both using. I thought she had been using longer than him but I thought it was a fairly new thing for both of them based on Baby A's age. I somehow assumed AW's drug use would have been detected during pregnancy and/or giving birth. I somehow hoped that PT's place of work being an industrial plant had a zero tolerance policy for drugs due to safety concerns. I hoped that b/c what most people saw of Noah was a happy and well adjusted child, that their drug use was new.

I was pretty disappointed when I read this news today. I felt sick. I wasn't sure if I would vomit or cry first. I read the news while I sat in the car as my 3 year old was napping and I did not have the heart to wake her. We sat with the A/C on for white noise and classical music playing softly. I thought about when I was pregnant with her and I became very ill. I was taken to to ER and given meds for asthma and a chest cold bordering on pneumonia and how terrified I was that it would harm her. And I remembered feeling this overwhelming connection to both of my babies from the moment I knew I was pregnant. I felt truly sad for Baby A that she did not have that kind of nurturing - even in the womb - which should be the one place all humans are safe.

So, yeah...I was surprised.

Yup. I'm feeling the same way right now. My heart felt like it dropped when I read that today.

I was so careful with both my pregnancies. I would feel so guilty of I had even a little coffee. I get bad migraines and I didn't want to take my regular medicine for that so my doctor told me to take Tylenol with a little coffee.

When I was breastfeeding, I made sure not to eat too much broccoli and things that may cause the babies gas.

When they started eating table food, I waited until they were past the ages for honey, eggs, berries, nuts, etc.

I can't imagine how bad an addiction must be for a mother to expose her unborn baby to it.

I must admit, these rose colored glasses of mine are getting a bit fogged. It's all so sad.


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[PeggyAnnMcKay]

I have a dear friend whose son died of a heroin overdose. She has since become a very vocal and active advocate for better access to treatment, more aggressive pursuit of dealers, and tighter restrictions on pain med Rx's to help prevent one common source of addiction. There has been evidence in the last year that pain meds prescribed for common procedures like dental work or injuries such as resetting a shoulder triggers the addiction mechanism in many people, especially in teens and young adults.

I am not in any way defending either parent, so please do not misunderstand my post. I absolutely find no excuse for what has happened to Noah nor to Baby A. But there IS a science behind addiction. It is not as simple as a choice.

We have no way of knowing at this point what their back story is. This could have been a situation where AW was prescribed meds legally and became addicted. Or, frankly, she could have made the choice to just try it...and then try it again a few more times and became addicted. And again, not to defend this woman in any way, but just to speak to the "how does this happen"...AW has not had a typical family life. Her father was murdered. Her best friend was murdered. Her mother died. I think there must have been a lot of sadness and strife in her life. Opiate users often report that they use to feel numb, to escape.

Heroin use is one the rise nationwide but there are pockets of areas where it is increasing sharply and SW Virginia is unfortunately one of them. Opiate use/abuse, in general, is almost at the point of an epidemic in our country.

There are so many things about PT's bond appeal hearing that make me realize how tangled this case really is. If AW was using while pregnant with Baby A, did PT know? What did he know and when did he know it? Do we still believe a family member is now caring for Baby A?

Very well said.

I'm not trying to oversimplify anyone's addiction, and I'm only speaking from personal experience. People who become physically addicted to opiates begin taking them for a reason. Maybe it is because of things you mentioned like needing it for surgery, or maybe it is because they want to escape the realities of life. Whatever the reason, the key word is escape. The problem is, once your body becomes physically dependent upon the drug, it is extremely difficult to go through the pain of withdrawal. It's making you do the very opposite of why you began taking the drugs in the first place. Your goal has been to escape pain - and the drugs do that. To stop them means going through very difficult withdrawal symptoms that last a long time. Pain isn't fun.

My doctor prescribed Tramadol for me because of fibro. I took it for probably 5 years and then decided to stop taking it. Tramadol, I was told, is a non-narcotic medication that people do not become physically dependent upon. Boy are they wrong. My body was ABSOLUTELY dependent upon it and getting off of it was an absolute nightmare. And I didn't even get the benefits of being loopy while taking it. lol. It took a tremendous amount of willpower to stop taking it. Now if I was also missing out on the mental addiction part, then it would have been even harder.

My heart truly does go out to people who are addicted to drugs, but at some point you have to make tough decisions. You have to choose between what is best for your children, and your own desire to use. Those who choose their desire to use over their children, do not deserve to be parents. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I have a relative that was very close to the entire family and we have discussed this situation as nauseum. I feel I can offer some insight based on this second-hand information.

Secondly, it is my understand that P & A are NOT drug addicts. While there may have been some substance issues in the family, those two did not give people close to them a reason to believe that there was anything more than occasional marijuana use by P. A did have a valid, legal prescription, which I believe is what LE found. It's worthwhile to take note that NO drug possession charges were filed against them, despite it being reported that prescription medications and a small amount of marijuana were found in the home.

It is also my understanding that the parents were actually very selective about who their children spent time with. While it is obvious that they excercised horribly poor judgement in leaving two young children unattended, it is my belief, based upon the personal information shared with me, that it was likely that they THOUGHT the children would be better left sleeping than to be woken and taken on the morning work trip. While I do not know if Noah was also suffering from the same cold, it seems reasonable to me that he was either coming down with, actively, or getting over the same cold or flu as the baby had. It also seems reasonable to think A may have also been under the weather, which could very well explain a 3 hour nap in the morning, if in fact that nap did occur!!!!

While I cannot claim to know what happened, I can say that there are people within circle of family / friends that are responsible, reasonable, sensible, and clear headed that can not imagine any situation where these parents either harmed their children or played any role of placing Noah in that tank.

Yes, I am aware of the charges and have read the code over and over and have read all sorts of other people's interpretations and ideas of the code. I know that these parents were absolutely neglectful in leaving their children at home, unattended and that they are being charged with felonies because of it. I also know that people can be deceiving and can surprise even their closest friends and family members. I realize that it is possible that what went on in their home could be very different than what they portrayed. However, that being said, I am close with my relative also and as such, I feel that this was a horrible, tragic accident. I do not believe that Noah's parents had any knowledge of him being in that tank beyond it being a place worth searching since they couldn't find their child and it was seemingly a known hazard.

Respectfully snipped & BBM, Has your opinion changed at all with the new information that came out today?

 

[SweetnessFollows]

Respectfully snipped & BBM, Has your opinion changed at all with the new information that came out today?

I'm having a hard time with it, I admit.

I still don't think anything was done intentionally. Just this morning, I was thinking about why she called 911 when she did. I would have thought if there was guilt involved, she would have waited until PT got home from work.

Based on conversations I've had with my relative, I now think that AW and PT were hiding things from friends and family (stronger drug use). I still think it was an accident, at this point. However, I think the timeline is out the window and there is a much larger time frame of when Noah may have disappeared. If drug use was occurring during that time, perhaps she didn't have a strong sense of time or awareness.

But I am surprised by things people are capable of every day.

I'm just trying to not jump to any conclusions or make too many assumptions in either direction.


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[Aeronomy]

Among the reasons I feel the parents are behind Noah's death and know how he ended up in the tank . . . no pleas from the parents to find who did this to Noah . . . no pleas for information if anyone saw anyone else around the home . . . no pleas at all except to be let out of jail.

SMH in disgust.

 

[PeggyAnnMcKay]

Among the reasons I feel the parents are behind Noah's death and know how he ended up in the tank . . . no pleas from the parents to find who did this to Noah . . . no pleas for information if anyone saw anyone else around the home . . . no pleas at all except to be let out of jail.

SMH in disgust.

I'm right there with you. I was so mad at the parents (well, as mad as you can be at people you don't actually know) when they wouldn't speak to the media about Noah being missing. All I could think of was...they are hiding something. LE kept saying the parents weren't ready to get in front of media. I've been of the opinion that it isn't about being ready, or about the parent - it is about the child who is missing. That was a huge red flag for me.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I guess I don't get it. I don't get why LE would even waste their time or energy on a post that is so obviously a hoax. For someone who is supposedly posting "facts", you would think that they would get something as basic as the date of arrest correct. The comments that follow add absolutely nothing to any form of "discussion". Why would LE even deign to acknowledge it? Because the person intimated they had inside information?
What a pity that any LEA would have to even have to deal with that garbage at all but especially one that has made it obvious they have no affinity for social networking or online public discussion of the case.

{insert massive Websleuths appreciation here}

Totally agree with you about that site, but so far almost all the info we do have has verified "rumors" that LE has said not to pay attention to. So, the fact that they specifically addressed this one leads me to believe it may very well be true.

 

[Luvrosco]

Among the reasons I feel the parents are behind Noah's death and know how he ended up in the tank . . . no pleas from the parents to find who did this to Noah . . . no pleas for information if anyone saw anyone else around the home . . . no pleas at all except to be let out of jail.

SMH in disgust.

Excellent points. I never even thought of that.

 

[blefuscu]

When babies are born addicted to opiates they need to be weened off them like any other addict. You can't just put a baby through cold turkey. The sound of their cries is like nothing I've ever heard before. The pure agony is heart chilling. My mam was a midwife for 30 years. Babies would be born addicted and spend time in the special care baby unit slowly being weened off heroin or other opiates. Much like when an adult is on methadone, it has to be a gradual process. If baby A is still being weened off the opiates it could be she is still having a replacement drug being used. Hopefully she will make a full recovery. It's awful that being pregnant and having Noah was not motivation enough for her to come off drugs.

 

[wvsoccermom]

I grew up in a home with drug addicts and things they did almost killed me one day. Well, probably lots more times that I don't remember but one day in particular. I was just lucky. Sadly, Noah wasn't as lucky. My point in sharing is that nobody knew. My parents were doing hard drugs and selling them and we lived in a nice house, in a nice neighborhood and nobody knew. I was well fed, clean and wore nice clothes. I would even say my parents loved me. In their own way. They are clean now and my relationship with them is ok. But I find it hard to forgive them for what I went through. I don't forgive Noahs parents either. But I do believe he was loved and I think this was an accident. I don't know WHY they would drug him but i think it makes the most sense as to what really happened. Kids just don't get into nasty tasting drugs like that on their own when they are 5 yrs old. And it really seems as though he passed on Saturday night so maybe they just wanted him to sleep. Surely if they gave an infant drugs, they thought it would be ok for a 60 lb 5 yr old also. It could have also been some other type of accident but with this new info, it seems to really fit. It's true, some of the original rumors make the most logical sense but again, just my own thoughts and speculation.
Oh and this may be stupid but....what does BBM mean? LOL

 

[wvsoccermom]

"Clinical presentation of opioid withdrawal:
Clinical presentation varies with the opioid, history of maternal substance use, maternal metabolism, transplacental drug transfer, and infant metabolism and excretion.
The central nervous system and gastrointestinal tract are most commonly affected.
Onset ranges from within ages 24 to 72 hours.
Subacute symptoms can last up to 6 months.
Seizures occur in 2% to 11% of infants, and abnormal electroencephalogram results occur in more than 30% of infants.
Maternal methadone dose does not predict fetal exposure.
Methadone levels in cord blood and at age 48 hours and rate of decrease in neonatal serum levels correlate with the signs of neonatal abstinence syndrome."

This states that withdrawal may not even show up for 72 hours after birth. I'm from VA and I know the doctors don't automatically do drug tests on pregnant moms. It is possible that AW gave birth and brought home baby A before withdrawal set in and nobody knew. If this was known at delivery, I believe the baby would have been taken from them at the hospital.

 

[iamnotagolem]

BBM = Bolded by me

 

[blefuscu]

I grew up in a home with drug addicts and things they did almost killed me one day. Well, probably lots more times that I don't remember but one day in particular. I was just lucky. Sadly, Noah wasn't as lucky. My point in sharing is that nobody knew. My parents were doing hard drugs and selling them and we lived in a nice house, in a nice neighborhood and nobody knew. I was well fed, clean and wore nice clothes. I would even say my parents loved me. In their own way. They are clean now and my relationship with them is ok. But I find it hard to forgive them for what I went through. I don't forgive Noahs parents either. But I do believe he was loved and I think this was an accident. I don't know WHY they would drug him but i think it makes the most sense as to what really happened. Kids just don't get into nasty tasting drugs like that on their own when they are 5 yrs old. And it really seems as though he passed on Saturday night so maybe they just wanted him to sleep. Surely if they gave an infant drugs, they thought it would be ok for a 60 lb 5 yr old also. It could have also been some other type of accident but with this new info, it seems to really fit. It's true, some of the original rumors make the most logical sense but again, just my own thoughts and speculation.
Oh and this may be stupid but....what does BBM mean? LOL

Thank you for sharing that x

 

[ANonyMs]

Among the reasons I feel the parents are behind Noah's death and know how he ended up in the tank . . . no pleas from the parents to find who did this to Noah . . . no pleas for information if anyone saw anyone else around the home . . . no pleas at all except to be let out of jail.

I thought about that today, too. I guess I felt like they knew all along but it is obvious now. We are allowed to assume as much now.

I also thought about how different PT's reason for wanting bond was today than just a couple of weeks ago. He wanted to go home, go back to work, make sure he did not "lose his house". He wanted things to go back to "normal". Now he wants to go to in a treatment program. While I completely believe there are people who do experience a metamorphosis once they are off drugs long enough and desire to go in to treatment, I find it very telling that his desire to go in to treatment is only brought up now.

I also wonder about his 23 hours of isolation. I wonder what reason they are using to justify that? Is that for his own protection? Cheaper than stationing an officer to watch him 24/7 (even at the risk of violating his rights?)

As I said before, they have to base their current decisions on the current charges. So, while I would like to think they are doing it because they intend to throw the book at him and they know there will be other charges once they get their evidence (autopsy) in place, they have to have a legally sound reason for doing it now.

I am completely fascinated by the legal aspects of this case and how it is being rolled out.

 

[ANonyMs]

Surely if they gave an infant drugs, they thought it would be ok for a 60 lb 5 yr old also.

But we don't know that they gave Baby A drugs, do we? Have I misunderstood what Baby A was diagnosed with? (Off to read through the resources again). I think there is a huge difference between intentionally administering drugs to her after birth and giving birth to an addicted baby who then suffers withdrawls or breastfeeding a baby and passing drugs on to her.

Jeez, now I feel like I also need to research breastfeeding and opiates, too. Oh, the things we learn about.

 

[ANonyMs]

This made me wonder if she became addicted post partum. Also has some interesting info on opate use and breast milk.

https://kr.ihc.com/ext/Dcmnt?ncid=520732469

 

[BrownRice]

It appears, from the news links today from court, mom was using while pregnant since the baby was born with the neonatal drug issue.

Has it been determined baby was diagnosed upon birth? I am wondering if this was only diagnosed now only because how in the world could a heroin addict (IMO - hasn't been confirmed) be able to take a baby home from the hospital? Or for all we know maybe the baby didn't come home immediately and she was in some type of treatment program. However, I would have thought that would be leaked already into the media.

 

[wvsoccermom]

But we don't know that they gave Baby A drugs, do we? Have I misunderstood what Baby A was diagnosed with? (Off to read through the resources again). I think there is a huge difference between intentionally administering drugs to her after birth and giving birth to an addicted baby who then suffers withdrawls or breastfeeding a baby and passing drugs on to her.

Jeez, now I feel like I also need to research breastfeeding and opiates, too. Oh, the things we learn about.

No we don't know that for sure. You're right and I'm thinking faster than I can type so probably getting ahead of myself. But we do know the treatment for the syndrome that baby A has is morphine or some type of opiate. So just going by my theory, AW would have been medicating the child without medical supervision. I just don't see why the baby wouldn't have been taken from her custody if it was known at the hospital. Also from the research I have done on breastfeeding, it wouldn't cause substantial problems like we may be led to believe. We do know this syndrome is from fetal exposure and requires opiates for withdrawal symptoms. The rest I'm sort of piecing together myself. So you're right.

 

[ANonyMs]

We do know this syndrome is from fetal exposure and requires opiates for withdrawal symptoms.

I am still reading up on it to understand it better but it does not necessarily have to be from fetal exposure nor necessarily from illegal drugs.

"Neonatal abstinence syndrome (NAS) is a group of problems that occur in a newborn who was exposed to addictive illegal or prescription drugs while in the mother’s womb. Two major types of NAS are recognized: NAS due to prenatal or maternal use of substances that result in withdrawal symptoms in the newborn and postnatal NAS secondary to discontinuation of medications such as fentanyl or morphine used for pain therapy in the newborn."

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/978763-overview