Verdict: GUILTY for both Millard and Smich of 1st degree murder #2

[otto]

<rsbm>

I don't see where anyone is hoping that Smich be found guilty or not guilty of anything, just that the consideration should be that folks are satisfied "beyond a reasonable doubt".

<rsbm>

Again, not excusing anyone if they in fact participated in the planning and/or actual murder. While there seems to be no doubt whatsoever as it relates to DM, some people do have doubt as it relates to Smich.

IIRC, that is what Smich testified as to the reason they did not carry out their plan to steal IT's truck.

Not possible, probable, or even just reasonable doubt ... the bar is "beyond a reasonable doubt".

MOO

When looking at the facts of the case, I'm not seeing any reasonable doubt in relation to the guilt of either of the men for the murder of Tim Bosma. When I asked what facts of evidence point to reasonable doubt, I was told that it has been discussed so often that there's no point in repeating any single reason for reasonable doubt.

The man who did not testify has been described as a "psychopath", and the man who did testify has apparently given reasonable doubt about his guilt. I don't know why that is, because given the conduct of these men, both appear to have antisocial personality disorder.

 

[FastLikeLight]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...al-Media-Doc-Thread-**-No-Discussion-**/page9
Sachak also played portions of video from Smich's interrogation by Hamilton police. In the video, Smich looks haggard, and is wrapped in a blanket.
"Where is that gun right now, Mark?" Hamilton police Staff Sgt. Matt Kavanagh asks in the 2013 video. "You can point me to evidence right now."
Smich would not look up, or respond to that question."

Was this video made public?

 

[ABro]

Yes, this! l have read so many posts diagnosing DM as a manipulative psychopath, and while that may be correct I have to wonder - who is the truly manipulative creep here? The one who almost everybody can easily see as a manipulative monster or the one who has a number people thinking that he possibly isn't guilty of 1st degree?

I think Smich is every bit as scary as DM...just in a different way. I'm sure glad that a jury of 12 agreed, and saw through Smich's trickery. MOO

Yep, Smich was the king of his little social circle and possibly even more manipulative than Millard.

 

[redheart]

When looking at the facts of the case, I'm not seeing any reasonable doubt in relation to the guilt of either of the men for the murder of Tim Bosma. When I asked what facts of evidence point to reasonable doubt, I was told that it has been discussed so often that there's no point in repeating any single reason for reasonable doubt.

The man who did not testify has been described as a "psychopath", and the man who did testify has apparently given reasonable doubt about his guilt. I don't know why that is, because given the conduct of these men, both appear to have antisocial personality disorder.

Yes, this is correct. And the man who testified and has damning texts entered into evidence, gets those those texts interpreted in all different innocuous ways that require some serious stretching. The guy who didn't testify - well, all of his texts and words are taken in the most sinister way possible. MOO

IMO DM is a horrible human being. But so is MS.

 

[Sillybilly]

IMO,
If ms was innocent and simply "there", my thought would be that at the first chance he had to go to LE, he would've went and explained all and offered all. Keep in mind the gun was NOT in his possession at this time.
IF he was just the clean up guy, imo, LE may have been satisfied with aatf.
The rap lyrics mean nothing to me, the phone battery dying means nothing to me. However, I do find it odd that no SIM cards were found for ms's phones.
Again, maybe he is just an innocent dupe who was at the wrong place at the wrong time BUT, he had the ability to make the "wrong" "right" yet ms carried on with life as though nothing had happened...IIRC, didn't get paranoid until he felt as though he was going to go down with DM.

We aren't talking everyday, ordinary, upstanding citizens here. I don't know of any criminal who would run off to LE to report anything his buddy did, regardless of how shocking it may have been. Might rat the buddy out if their butts are hauled in, but initiating that contact? It's like Omerta is word of the day in that group. Not one of the bunch ran to LE to say DM was planning to steal a truck. Even MM who supposedly thought it was a bad idea, just went on about her life without ratting on them.

MOO

 

[THXGuru]

When looking at the facts of the case, I'm not seeing any reasonable doubt in relation to the guilt of either of the men for the murder of Tim Bosma. When I asked what facts of evidence point to reasonable doubt, I was told that it has been discussed so often that there's no point in repeating any single reason for reasonable doubt.

The man who did not testify has been described as a "psychopath", and the man who did testify has apparently given reasonable doubt about his guilt. I don't know why that is, because given the conduct of these men, both appear to have antisocial personality disorder.

I think you are confused between doubt and reasonable doubt.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...al-Media-Doc-Thread-**-No-Discussion-**/page9
Sachak also played portions of video from Smich's interrogation by Hamilton police. In the video, Smich looks haggard, and is wrapped in a blanket.
"Where is that gun right now, Mark?" Hamilton police Staff Sgt. Matt Kavanagh asks in the 2013 video. "You can point me to evidence right now."
Smich would not look up, or respond to that question."

Was this video made public?

IMO, MS's taped interview with the police has never been made public up to this point in time.


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[CJPRINCESS]

Snipped for space.
Before going on the test drive(s) they would know the exact location of where they were headed. So to me we can't reasonably assume it was just decided not to kill Igor due to location. They knew in advance IT was in Toronto. DM gave the impression they were all scoping missions IMO because like you said, killing Igor especially given where he lived didn't make sense. MOO

Someone mentioned Igor's test drive may have been a dry run. That made me think, maybe to see if their plan could work or if they had to go back to the missions board. My other thought was, yes could be a scoping mission to see what Igor looked like. He lived in an apartment building so they probably couldn't determine who Igor was, unlike TB's house (3 years ago, not now with the gates) they could see everything...what TB looked like, where he parked the tuck, who was there etc. They knew where to park the Yukon and they knew enough to call TB out of the house and meet them outside, away from full site of SB and WB.

Anyhow what you say here makes much sense! Too risky to follow the plan so far from where they needed to complete it. The other trucks (besides TB's) if I remember correctly, were in the Waterloo region. These trucks aren't so rare...unless it had to have running lights of course. I'm curious to know if the other trucks had that feature. It just had to be closer to the farm to be completed, without too much risk of being caught with a dead or bound guy in it.

 

[ABro]

<rsbm>

I don't see where anyone is hoping that Smich be found guilty or not guilty of anything, just that the consideration should be that folks are satisfied "beyond a reasonable doubt".

<rsbm>

Again, not excusing anyone if they in fact participated in the planning and/or actual murder. While there seems to be no doubt whatsoever as it relates to DM, some people do have doubt as it relates to Smich.



IIRC, that is what Smich testified as to the reason they did not carry out their plan to steal IT's truck.



Not possible, probable, or even just reasonable doubt ... the bar is "beyond a reasonable doubt".

MOO

As far as I can see the Smich reasonable doubters just dismiss all the evidence and say they believe his story. Where do you stand on Meneses' testimony about the celebration, his 100-plus post-murder text messages to Millard including talk about his wedding suit and chilling out, Daly's testimony that Smich was perfectly fine that week until Millard got arrested?

How do you explain all his pre-murder texts about the BBQ, his gun obsession, his change of clothes, etc? And what about the fact that he draws a complete blank on his gun burial and 50-minute meeting with Millard before his arrest while remembering other things crystal clear?

I've only scratched the surface, <modsnip>

 

[Jen Darme]

Well that was pointed out in reference to the fact DM was supposed to have promised MS a caddy. Was he going to drive around the GTA and possibly all the way to Alberta without a license? And what would happen when he got to Alberta with a car that had Ontario plates but a driver with no license. Wouldn't be long before he could no longer fly under the radar. The caddy as payment, again made no sense. What was he going to do with it? Park it at his Mom's? Or at EM apartment building? How would he plate the thing so he wouldn't get picked up? Or was DM going to hold the ownership even after "paying" MS?

I can't shake the feeling that his mom asked why he was working for DM and had little, if any, cash to show for it (MM, too?) and he fibbed, telling her he'd eventually get the Caddy. It then took on a life of its own. It's rather adolescent but much of their behavior was.

 

[deugirtni]

You could be correct. I suggested the date originally thinking that the disallowed text was more strongly connected to the earlier LB crime. And that it had to be protected (if that's the correct word) for use in the later case (because we're in the somewhat awkward situation of having a trial for a later crime occurring before the trial for the earlier crime)

The date of that series of texts, IIRC, was in Feb 2012, well before each of the LB murder, and the WM murder. But yet it was presented in evidence as if it had bearing in *this* trial, but not *all* of it. They ruled out the portion that was extremely prejudicial to DM. My thoughts were that DM had been thinking of offing his dad for quite some time, but in the meantime, LB got in the way of his life's plan, and so she ended up being first. moo

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

The date of that series of texts, IIRC, was in Feb 2012, well before each of the LB murder, and the WM murder. But yet it was presented in evidence as if it had bearing in *this* trial, but not *all* of it. They ruled out the portion that was extremely prejudicial to DM. My thoughts were that DM had been thinking of offing his dad for quite some time, but in the meantime, LB got in the way of his life's plan, and so she ended up being first. moo

But, regardless of the date the texts were sent, the texts that WERE entered into evidence proved that DM purchased the gun that killed Tim Bosma. That is why those texts were allowed to be entered as evidence (to support the various other photos, etc., evidence that that was the gun that was used in Tim's murder.) Those texts most assuredly DID have great bearing in this trial.

The texts that were a part of that same conversation that were NOT entered into evidence, as Susan Clairmont tweeted, were more than likely not allowed because they couldn't, by the date of the texts alone, prove the gun was purchased to specifically kill Tim, and therefore those texts didn't have a specific bearing in Tim's trial.

There is a possibility that they might have more bearing in Laura Babcock's and Wayne Millard's trials.

MOO


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[deugirtni]

MS said that his girlfriend MM was going to get her license, and do the driving to Alberta. I think he really wanted that caddy, and the promise of having it, was a significant motivation for him to participate in the planning and deliberate murder of a good man. Both DM and MS got the maximum that Canada could give them. I wish we still had capital punishment, but I do feel that the Bosmas did get a form of justice for Tim, and I am glad they did. Now I hope the courts get it right where LB and WM are concerned. I also hope that justice is done in the CN trial, and that the judge does not go easy on her. This trial has been so high profile, I doubt that he will.

IMO

Can you please provide the link for when MS said that MM was going to get her license and do the driving to Alberta? I am unable to locate that. I recall it being said that MM didn't want to go to Alberta. moo

 

[Myvice]

Was there a reason MS couldn't get his license such as the wreck and DUI or did he just not want to spend the money for one when he didn't have a car?

 

[Sillybilly]

OnStar remains a GM product but an equivalent service under different branding did become available for Dodge trucks at some point. Memory wants to tell me IT's truck was a 2010?

From what I can gather it is a combination of OnStar and other technology:

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/03/new-system-combines-features-of-onstar-and-sync-coming-to-chrys/

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f19/onstar-now-standard-dodge-vehicles-65141/

IMO it's possible that MS used the common reference of OnStar in a somewhat generic sense, simply meaning the vehicle couldn't be tracked.

 

[redwing7225]

We aren't talking everyday, ordinary, upstanding citizens here. I don't know of any criminal who would run off to LE to report anything his buddy did, regardless of how shocking it may have been. Might rat the buddy out if their butts are hauled in, but initiating that contact? It's like Omerta is word of the day in that group. Not one of the bunch ran to LE to say DM was planning to steal a truck. Even MM who supposedly thought it was a bad idea, just went on about her life without ratting on them.

MOO

the bolded part...MS was hauled in, he remained silent. "upstanding citizens" doesn't come to mind when the thought of what these 2 have done comes to mind.
IMO, after the LB and WM trial is over and justice is once again served...hate to say this cause I typically don't want harm upon anyone HOWEVER, I wouldn't lose any sleep at night if these 2 decided to use their bedsheets for something other than covering themselves up at night.

 

[Ontario Mom]

As far as I can see the Smich reasonable doubters just dismiss all the evidence and say they believe his story.

I can't speak for anyone else of course but for me, it wasn't a matter of dismissing the evidence at all. It was a matter of not interpreting it the same as those who were convinced it was evidence of a premeditation of murder.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

The Eliminator texts, regardless of their dates, were extremely important texts to be entered into evidence and had tremendous value and bearing in this trial, because Tim was incinerated in it.

(Sorry, forgot to use the reply button ... This was in response to an earlier post regarding a point made about the timing of the Eliminator texts.)

MOO

 

[marymcd]

Agreed. A complete disregard and disrespect for the law. I really didn't understand how during the trial people kept referencing the fact that Smirch couldn't drive because he didn't have a license. Like that would be the law he chose to obey? Really? And even insinuated he didn't know how to drive on the hiway? MOO

Smirch - so funny!

 

[SnooperDuper]

I' not interested in debating the verdict anymore...just puzzling what turned these men into monsters.

They never acted crazy...I don't think they were born this way. I think they were bent.