Verdict: GUILTY for both Millard and Smich of 1st degree murder #2

[canadiangirl]

Are you loving them, as in believing they were helpful?


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Not at all. Loving them as in, more sleuthers trying to interpret someone's meaning of texts and obviously coming to different conclusions. I would say my interpretation and yours were very different.

If someone has to convince themselves of premeditation, then maybe they need to give a good hard look at why that is. No disrespect intended to the Inspector.

 

[canadiangirl]

Where did I say to you that you didn't respect Justice Goodman?


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If you reread your post, that is my interpretation of it. And JMO

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Not at all. Loving them as in, more sleuthers trying to interpret someone's meaning of texts and obviously coming to different conclusions. I would say my interpretation and yours were very different.

If someone has to convince themselves of premeditation, then maybe they need to give a good hard look at why that is. No disrespect intended to the Inspector.

I think if you went back to Inspector North's post and re-read it, you would be able to understand the point he was making. And, if not, why not ask him to clarify it for you?


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[canadiangirl]

I think if you went back to Inspector North's post and re-read it, you would be able to understand the point he was making. And, if not, why not ask him to clarify it for you?


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I assumed when/if he saw my comments he may respond to what he meant by it. Others took it upon themselves to interpret his words for him.

 

[Jezbel]

Someone commented that they received some court papers. It was also said he got 10 years. Wonder what's all true and what is BS. But in all likeliness, I do think someone is big doo-doo with bigIsho....Wonder which one ratted? MS or DM. They both white so that's no clue.

ETA: The person that said they received a pm (I'm thinking the is what they meant) of court papers typed "DM'ed" instead of PM'ed, could that be a clue :thinking:

Dm means direct message

 

[Sillybilly]

Tone down the attitudes in the thread.

Enough of badgering other posters about what they believe, or trying to hammer your own opinions/beliefs into their heads.

Move on please.

:tyou:

 

[MsSherlock]

Again, out of context. I never said I didn't respect Justice Goodman. I actually believe I stated many times the admiration I had for the man based on what was reported. I was asked on what grounds I thought there would be an appeal. I answered what I think may be TD's angle. I also included I'm not a lawyer and it was JMO

The Jury has a very interesting vantage point in a trial like this. First of all, unlike us sleuthers, they have not followed the case right from the get go. Rather, they're a group of men and women who are plucked out of their everyday life to listen to evidence and make a decision on a case that they had little knowledge of prior to being selected for this Jury. They listened intently to hours of testimony, and had the best seats in the house to watch the accused and witnesses. IMHO, both DM and MS received more than a fair trial. Justice G was extremely cautious when it came to allowing evidence- there's much that we don't know even now, yet when it was reduced down to only that information that the Jury was allowed to hear, the Jury was able to come to a unanimous decision of 1st degree for both of the accused. IMHO, the Jury is so much different than a group like this. In a forum like this, we tend to try to figure things out- look at things from different angles, whereas a Jury is there for one thing- to determine guilt based on the evidence.

I wasn't surprised that they found MS guilty of 1st degree. All they had to do is come to the conclusion that DM and MS were working together to execute a plan to steal a truck and kill and incinerate the owner. It didn't have to be MS's idea and MS didn't have to actually murder anyone, he simply had to be DM's assistant and IMHO, that's why he's into Day 2 of a life sentence today. Was he under DM's spell? Of course he was! DM was giving him the caddie, he was building a recording studio for him and getting a cool pad ready at Riverside. MS was DM's right hand man- his personal assistant. It's almost comical to think that MS's defence was that all of a sudden he saw "Dellen the lunatic" and in reality, DM's everyday actions were seldom sane. Here's an independently wealthy guy stealing equipment, dealing heavy narcotics, buying guns and five fingering ammo just for the fun of it? Stealing a truck and offing the owner if necessary may not have been MS's idea and it may have really bothered him once it really happened, but IMHO, MS was a willing participant knowing that if necessary, someone was going to get killed and disposed of. I'm also not surprised that they both pointed the finger at each other- when faced with 1st degree murder, who wouldn't? After all, their options were pretty limited!

I accept the verdicts; I accept the fact that they will both appeal; I feel confident that they got a fair trial; I have a new found confidence in our Jury system. MOO

 

[otto]

Not at all. Loving them as in, more sleuthers trying to interpret someone's meaning of texts and obviously coming to different conclusions. I would say my interpretation and yours were very different.

If someone has to convince themselves of premeditation, then maybe they need to give a good hard look at why that is. No disrespect intended to the Inspector.

Millard and Smich contacted three separate people with the intent to steal the vehicle during a test drive. When they finally went through with it, we know that the plan included murdering the vehicle's owner. Clearly, there is no question as to whether there was premeditation.

 

[otto]

And my response to you though is what evidence was presented of premeditation? Oh right. About 7 texts messages and a sausage pic. And you are mistaken if you think I'm upset. Answering questions that are asked of me isn't an indicator of someone being upset. Because people don't agree they expect others to conform. Well, that doesn't always happen. You are correct however that I don't agree with the verdict. I'm not trying to find fault, that's TD job.

I think people have failed to see that I'm not the only one here who sees reasonable doubt. I'm just the one under fire a lot of the time because others have stated before posting that they "will be brave" and post their true thoughts. A strong indicator that others possibly don't want to get trampled on by not following the popular opinion here. Jmo

If the truck theft and murder were not premeditated, how should we interpret the fact that Millard and Smich contacted two other people regarding a type of vehicle they wanted to steal before stealing Tim's truck and incinerating him?

 

[deugirtni]

Any person convicted of murder receives an opportunity to appeal. Their lawyers will look for the the most glaring errors, and if they can't find any, they will, in their briefs, outline and present arguments detailing the smallest errors that were made, in their opinion, that legal errors were made. The Court of Appeals will only grant an appeal if the error(s) was so egregious that it would have resulted in a different verdict.

I can't see that happening in this case at all. And MOST defence attorneys will always say "We believe we have good grounds for appeal" after their client was found guilty. It doesn't mean that they do. It makes for a good sound bite, that's all. But they will proceed through the appeal process because it is their job to do their best for their client.

Even lawyers on newscasts have opined that there are no grounds for appeal.

MOO


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Those lawyers who find themselves opining on newscasts that there are no grounds for appeal, were likely sorely absent from the huge number of legal arguments which took place pretty much daily during the course of the 5 month trial. (I am assuming this since most lawyers that I am familiar with, do not have the time to sit in a courtroom daily for 5 months at another lawyer's case just out of interest). I personally wouldn't put a lot of weight on their opinions, since they weren't there to know what to base their opinions on, but that is just moo.

 

[canadiangirl]

If the truck theft and murder were not premeditated, how should we interpret the fact that Millard and Smich contacted two other people regarding a type of vehicle they wanted to steal before stealing Tim's truck and incinerating him?

I never said the theft wasn't premeditated. Planning to murder and planning to steal are completely different.

 

[deugirtni]

Oh, you mean the sausage pics all the MS supporters have been claiming for weeks as being all innocent and no big deal? Suddenly, they're horrible and damning to his reputation and that picture and his rap song are what got him convicted? He can appeal all he wants. His lawyer did an amazing job, he received a fair trial. There are absolutely no grounds for him to appeal.

MS's lawyer did do a fantastic job, there is no doubt about that, imho, and so did the judge, also imo. The 'sausage pic' of a 'high-five' and the rap video, imho are not damning as far as evidence in this trial, and yet many many here put a lot of weight and darkness into those 2 things, and so although they, in some members' opinions, should have been no big deal in this trial, they certainly *were* damning to his reputation, based on the things that obviously many here read into those things. MS can, and he will, I'm sure, appeal 'all he wants'.

No offence to sleuthers here, however whether or not there will be acceptable grounds for an appeal for MS will be decided by a panel of learned judges at our Court of Appeal for Ontario, not by anyone here, even though it was stated above as fact, rather than opinion, that "there are absolutely no grounds for him to appeal."

 

[deugirtni]

I never said the theft wasn't premeditated. Planning to murder and planning to steal are completely different.

Imo, it seems that some are unable to understand the distinction.

 

[deugirtni]

If the truck theft and murder were not premeditated, how should we interpret the fact that Millard and Smich contacted two other people regarding a type of vehicle they wanted to steal before stealing Tim's truck and incinerating him?

I never said the theft wasn't premeditated. Planning to murder and planning to steal are completely different.

Not to mention that I didn't hear any evidence of MS having contacted the two other people in regard to the test drives, but I could have possibly missed it. moo

 

[Inspector_North]

BBM
So if I understand you correctly, you convinced yourself it was premeditated and there was little evidence to be found in premeditation in the case of TB. I'm sorry to say but both those comments indicate there is room for doubt.

It may have been worded wrong. They were planning to kill, just not TB specifically.

Looking at the evidence, they were planning a killing system, and TB was their first all nighter, not just a 2 hour flop. If you look at the evidence for specifically killing TB or someone while test driving for a truck, it is hard to find. If you look for them planning on killing when "the source" gets in the way, there is plenty. Tim happened to get in the way of what DM thought he was entitled to.

I was at first looking at evidence specific to premeditated planning on a test drive. Once I realized that they were just planning to kill anyone who stood in way of their empire building, the evidence was plenty. They didn't kill just for a truck, they would of killed for much less .......... even the thrill.

MOO

 

[dar107]

I think people have failed to see that I'm not the only one here who sees reasonable doubt. I'm just the one under fire a lot of the time because others have stated before posting that they "will be brave" and post their true thoughts. A strong indicator that others possibly don't want to get trampled on by not following the popular opinion here. Jmo

Well I for one have enjoyed your posts and find myself in agreement with some of what you say. I've been a member for years and I think every case I have followed there is always some disagreement between posters. I have been on both sides of the fence, with the majority and in the minority. For the most part people can be respectful. I'm not sure why so many want to attack your opinion here as I find it quite reasonable. I think sometimes we as posters get so wrapped up and emotionally invested that we forget we are still on the outside looking in. When one is so emotionally invested that they find it nessassary to attack every post of those not in total agreement, go around commenting on CN personal social media pages, etc. it becomes an unhealthy infatuation where one sometimes cannot control there emotions. Again any disagreement with the majority and you are automatically labeled a supporter of MS. I have not seen any posts that suggest MS should be set free for goodness sake. Anyways all IMO and just wanted you to know you are supported.

 

[Tiggertoo]

IMO the truck theft and the murder were premeditated in that they prepared for having to dispose of a body. If you're not planning to incinerate why have an incinerator. It clearly wasn't for dead animals as DM initially stated.
Also, if MS hadn't wanted to be part of this he had ample opportunity to leave the situation or to get police. IM0 he was all in.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Oh, you mean the sausage pics all the MS supporters have been claiming for weeks as being all innocent and no big deal? Suddenly, they're horrible and damning to his reputation and that picture and his rap song are what got him convicted? He can appeal all he wants. His lawyer did an amazing job, he received a fair trial. There are absolutely no grounds for him to appeal.

All the MS supporters eh? I recall there were many people that thought they were not damning and were meaningless. It wasn't just "MS supporters" that thought nothing of those pictures. If they were such a big deal, why didn't the Crown elaborated on? They were shown, media and folks ran with it, the end.

As for the rap lyrics, now those could be damning to him. We had a lot of discussions here about rap lyrics being used in trials. Not just about MS'S but other rappers as well. There were a few cases where the artist was convicted solely on his lyrics. I don't believe that is the case here though. The few questions asked seemed to be based around MS and nothing to do with his horrible rap video. IMO, the media also blew that up as well. I had a hard time watching his videos without laughing. However IMO, the text only version was more damning but wasn't what made me think MS was guilty. The Crown shouldn't have played his recorded version.

I'd hire Dungey if I ever needed a criminal defense lawyer. He put up a great fight and definitely earned his pay.

 

[redwing7225]

IMO the truck theft and the murder were premeditated in that they prepared for having to dispose of a body. If you're not planning to incinerate why have an incinerator. It clearly wasn't for dead animals as DM initially stated.
Also, if MS hadn't wanted to be part of this he had ample opportunity to leave the situation or to get police. IM0 he was all in.

Thank you for this...
I can honestly say, when MS took the stand, I was conflicted. I literally sat down those evenings and went through testimony and compared it to billadrew's time line.
For me, it truly boiled down to simply not believing that there could be 2 people so sick and twisted in this world to carry out this act together. I was becoming emotionally charged and had to remain factful/mindful of the facts presented.
IMO, the jury got it right BUT we are all entitled to our own opinions and I value that others share theirs here on the forum.

 

[Miranda16]

I believe that was me. Something I still believe happened. There are parts of MS'S testimony I do believe which supports this. IMO, he forgot to tell us HIS part in it though.

Oops sorry. Hard to keep straight who said what. :blushing: It's a good theory IMO