Verdict is in! GUILTY of MURDER ONE - Hung Jury On Penalty Phase #2

[peedoffinny]

BBM- IMHO, it had nothing to do with JA's peace of mind. Bottom line with a sociopath, he didn't do what she wanted him to do. Period.

He rejected her, He had no right to do that so he should die. Makes perfect sense in JAs mind.

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

You've got to be kidding. They thought it was UNFAIR to make a life or DP decision?? Then why the hell did any of those who thought that make it through voir dire? Being DP qualified means the ability to do just that.

Yea, to me that's a clear sign that they never really meant that they could give someone death. IF he is speaking for all four of those people who decided life.

 

[aa9511]

I know people are not gonna like this, but IMO, Travis came off as really unlikeable based on what was heard in trial alone. I think that helped members of the jury who thought there may have been emotional abuse believe this. It also probably played into them not being able to agree with the DP for her. I am not saying Travis was unlikeable....just saying if all you heard was what was said in the trial, he came off that way...

- His own awful words to Jodi (remember the jury did not hear why he said those things; they didn't hear that she stalked him, slashed his tires, etc). Taken by themselves they're pretty awful and certainly seem to be emotionally abusive. This made him seem unlikeable.

- He worked for (and was successful) at Prepaid Legal. Many people view PPL as a pyramid scheme that preys on the unsuspecting who are desperate to make money and are taken advantage of. (Just Google Prepaid Legal and Pyramid Scheme- this isn't exactly a secret). This made him seem unlikeable.

- He purported to be an upstanding member of LDS. He was a returned missionary, a member approved to enter temple (in good standing and not fornicating), and a priesthood holder. All Christian religions are pretty much against pre-maritals sex, but IMO, the Mormons are some of the strongest in their stance against it and enforcing it. I have been to a few Catholic weddings & several other Christian weddings where the bride and groom's child was their flower girl or ring bearer and the couple had lived together for a while. That isn't really gonna happen in Mormonism. I have several good friends who are Mormon, and my impression is that chastity is a way bigger deal in Mormonism than other Christian groups purport it to be in their religions (meaning Mormons walk the walk on this issue). BYU threw a star player off of their basketball team a few years ago when he admitted to having sex with his girlfriend. I doubt we'd ever see Georgetown or any other Catholic university do that (there is a morals clause prohibiting sex for unmarried students at BYU that I've never heard of there being at a Catholic university or college). When discussing this with a good friend who is Mormon, he told me that one of the LDS presidents once said something to the effect of "we would rather come to this station and take your body off the train in a casket than to have you come home unclean, having lost your virtue.” (found it here- http://www.gospeldoctrine.com/content/1-corinthians-3). Obviously, plenty of LDS just like plenty of people of every religion are fornicating, I'm just saying it's taken VERY seriously and some who are Mormon or know a lot of Mormons (and there are many in the Phoenix area) would be hip to the fact that Travis was living a lie and his image/income was tied in with that lie. (Look, I personally don't care if any adult is having sex with any other consenting adult and I don't care that Jodi & Travis were having sex. I'm just saying it didn't make him look particularly good that his status and image were so wrapped up with being a good Mormon yet here he was having sex with Jodi after baptizing her). This made him seem unlikeable.

- The sex. I'm gonna say this - many men (and women) would not want to invision someone tying their daughter to tree in a sexual fantasy or have anal sex with her even if she was a willing participant or even if she initiated it. They'd hope a man would treat a lady better than that (yeah, I know we know Jodi's no "lady," but just go with me for a minute...). I think some people think if you really love and respect someone, you aren't having "that" type of sex with them. That if he loved and respected Jodi, he'd never try to have anything besides vaginal sex in a bed with her. I know that's an antiquated view and of course, the majority of loving couples are having and have had sex that deviates from the missionary position in bed. And Jodi was certainly a willing participant and initatior. I just think it still made Travis unlikeable. I have had several girlfriends who complain about doing some sexual things with their significant others that they don't really like but "will do for the guy" or will do because they're afraid the guy won't like them if they don't, will look for another girl, or will leave them. Sometimes I wondered, since Travis said Jodi wasn't emotional during sex via his statement she saw him as a dildo with a heartbeat, that she wasn't realy into the sex but doing these things because she thought it would keep him around & keep him liking her (which would make sense with a BPD's fear of abandonment as well). I think some women could relate to this. And some older men (and women) on the jury may have thought that the ways Travis wanted and did have sex with Jodi were disrespectful to her, even if she engaged in this activity willingly or even initated it. Some people just expect a man to treat a woman better, let alone a woman you've just baptized. (Not saying I agree with this- just saying some may have seen it this way.) The anal sex, etc. made him seem unlikeable.

- Travis also came off as a cheater and someone who strung girls along (Deanna). That made him unlikeable.

- Travis came off as a liar just like Jodi- the lies about being a virgin, the separate hotel rooms, etc. He was 30. If you wanna have sex, have sex. If it's not part of your religion but you're gonna do it anyway, step away from one or the other. This made him unlikeable.

- At 30, Travis was still hiding that he was having sex like a teenager & claiming to be a virgin. This made him come off to some people I've talked to as immature and ridiculous for a man of his age to do. This made him unlikeable.

Look, I am 100% not saying these are reasons that Travis wasn't likeable, we know from all the friends he had (versus Jodi's one friend) that he was likeable. But that's not what the jury heard during the trial. He was human. He made mistakes. His mistakes were small and common (sex out of marriage, for example). He did not deserve to die. He did not murder anyone. When I see pictures of him with his little dog, my heart breaks. I wish the jury could have seen that picture over and over again. That made him more of a person and more likeable to me than the slit throat pictures. I have a theory that no man who truly loves a little dog can be anything but good.

Jodi Arias is a murderer. But I think it Jodi helped that Travis didn't come off as likeable as he should have. And that's a shame.

THank you for the post. You made some really good points. I guess we do have to remember that these jurors only saw part of the picture, and it was the defense's job to paint Travis in a bad light.

I think that once we start getting more interviews with the jurors who did not believe ANY of what CMJA was peddling, we will start to feel much better. This man was on the jury, and he happened to be the foreman. But his is only one view from that jury. There are others, like the alternate #17, who was very clearly against Jodi. This guy, on the other hand, seemed to want to be very sympathetic to her. So let's just wait and hope the others will talk so we can get his comments out of our minds.

I also agree with others who have said they now believe the holdouts to be all male! I think Jean C was right that the juror 16 looked defiant coming out of the jury room, and when they wree getting snacks she and some other men, she stood off to the side with her arms crossed. I can only imagine my frustration of having to talk sense into someone like the Foreman. I now think Juror 16 was actually on the death side. She was just frustrated with the holdouts.

I just feel so relieved that we actually got M1. I mean, what if this guy had refused to budge even on the guilt phase??? It would have been a mistrial!!!! Omigosh. I think we should thank our lucky stars, and let's just hope for the best in the next phase.

 

[FrayedKnot]

And respectfully, just because posters aren't reacting in the way you're reacting doesn't make their (respectfully posted) opinions less valuable ...

That's pretty much what I was trying to say.

Defending the jurors doesn't mean I hate the Alexanders. It just means I think they did their jobs.

I really am alarmed by the anger directed at the jurors, though. They didn't kill Travis.

MOO

 

[Shelby1]

Can I have a little informal poll. This is my first trial, and I look forward to seeing you all again.

What will you be watching next? And when?

I'll be watching the Andrea Sneiderman trial--thread is here:
Rusty Sneiderman Murder - Wife Arrested and charged #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[OEJ]

It's not like she didn't know she had a problem! Her friends were calling her mom about it! Others had said something to her about it. She is a grown woman. Was a grown woman when she killed Travis. It was up to her to take care of her mental health!! Not his! Not her mom! Nobody else was responsible for this! This is so sad.....even in death, Travis will never be allowed to rest.

Men kill women every single day because they can't handle rejection. It is painful, so they get mad and kill. Jodi is no different.

 

[AZWatcher]

I found it really strange that the foreman said he didn't want to look at her when they read the guilty verdict, but he did and he "will remember it forever." WTF?? If I had just come to the conclusion that she carried out this unspeakable crime...I would not be caring about how she took the news. I would be looking at the Alexanders and feeling good that I did something to ease their pain. I don't get that?

He lost me at " I believed her....." .

Sympathy for The Devil ain't just a song.

 

[The Farm]

I don't think JA uses her Mary Poppins facade in jail .. I bet she's completely different out of view of a camera .. JMO.

I was thinking the same thing. After all she is all lies.

 

[anagrammy]

I know people are not gonna like this, but IMO, Travis came off as really unlikeable based on what was heard in trial alone. I think that helped members of the jury who thought there may have been emotional abuse believe this. It also probably played into them not being able to agree with the DP for her. I am not saying Travis was unlikeable....just saying if all you heard was what was said in the trial, he came off that way...

- His own awful words to Jodi (remember the jury did not hear why he said those things; they didn't hear that she stalked him, slashed his tires, etc). Taken by themselves they're pretty awful and certainly seem to be emotionally abusive. This made him seem unlikeable.

- He worked for (and was successful) at Prepaid Legal. Many people view PPL as a pyramid scheme that preys on the unsuspecting who are desperate to make money and are taken advantage of. (Just Google Prepaid Legal and Pyramid Scheme- this isn't exactly a secret). This made him seem unlikeable.

- He purported to be an upstanding member of LDS. He was a returned missionary, a member approved to enter temple (in good standing and not fornicating), and a priesthood holder. All Christian religions are pretty much against pre-maritals sex, but IMO, the Mormons are some of the strongest in their stance against it and enforcing it. I have been to a few Catholic weddings & several other Christian weddings where the bride and groom's child was their flower girl or ring bearer and the couple had lived together for a while. That isn't really gonna happen in Mormonism. I have several good friends who are Mormon, and my impression is that chastity is a way bigger deal in Mormonism than other Christian groups purport it to be in their religions (meaning Mormons walk the walk on this issue). BYU threw a star player off of their basketball team a few years ago when he admitted to having sex with his girlfriend. I doubt we'd ever see Georgetown or any other Catholic university do that (there is a morals clause prohibiting sex for unmarried students at BYU that I've never heard of there being at a Catholic university or college). When discussing this with a good friend who is Mormon, he told me that one of the LDS presidents once said something to the effect of "we would rather come to this station and take your body off the train in a casket than to have you come home unclean, having lost your virtue.” (found it here- http://www.gospeldoctrine.com/content/1-corinthians-3). Obviously, plenty of LDS just like plenty of people of every religion are fornicating, I'm just saying it's taken VERY seriously and some who are Mormon or know a lot of Mormons (and there are many in the Phoenix area) would be hip to the fact that Travis was living a lie and his image/income was tied in with that lie. (Look, I personally don't care if any adult is having sex with any other consenting adult and I don't care that Jodi & Travis were having sex. I'm just saying it didn't make him look particularly good that his status and image were so wrapped up with being a good Mormon yet here he was having sex with Jodi after baptizing her). This made him seem unlikeable.

- The sex. I'm gonna say this - many men (and women) would not want to invision someone tying their daughter to tree in a sexual fantasy or have anal sex with her even if she was a willing participant or even if she initiated it. They'd hope a man would treat a lady better than that (yeah, I know we know Jodi's no "lady," but just go with me for a minute...). I think some people think if you really love and respect someone, you aren't having "that" type of sex with them. That if he loved and respected Jodi, he'd never try to have anything besides vaginal sex in a bed with her. I know that's an antiquated view and of course, the majority of loving couples are having and have had sex that deviates from the missionary position in bed. And Jodi was certainly a willing participant and initatior. I just think it still made Travis unlikeable. I have had several girlfriends who complain about doing some sexual things with their significant others that they don't really like but "will do for the guy" or will do because they're afraid the guy won't like them if they don't, will look for another girl, or will leave them. Sometimes I wondered, since Travis said Jodi wasn't emotional during sex via his statement she saw him as a dildo with a heartbeat, that she wasn't realy into the sex but doing these things because she thought it would keep him around & keep him liking her (which would make sense with a BPD's fear of abandonment as well). I think some women could relate to this. And some older men (and women) on the jury may have thought that the ways Travis wanted and did have sex with Jodi were disrespectful to her, even if she engaged in this activity willingly or even initated it. Some people just expect a man to treat a woman better, let alone a woman you've just baptized. (Not saying I agree with this- just saying some may have seen it this way.) The anal sex, etc. made him seem unlikeable.

- Travis also came off as a cheater and someone who strung girls along (Deanna). That made him unlikeable.

- Travis came off as a liar just like Jodi- the lies about being a virgin, the separate hotel rooms, etc. He was 30. If you wanna have sex, have sex. If it's not part of your religion but you're gonna do it anyway, step away from one or the other. This made him unlikeable.

- At 30, Travis was still hiding that he was having sex like a teenage & claiming to be a virgin. This made him come off to some people I've talked to as immature and ridiculous for a man of his age to do. This made him unlikeable.

Look, I am 100% not saying these are reasons that Travis wasn't likeable, we know from all the friends he had (versus Jodi's one friend) that he was likeable. But that's not what the jury heard during the trial. He was human. He made mistakes. His mistakes were small and common (sex out of marriage, for example). He did not deserve to die. He did not murder anyone. When I see pictures of him with his little dog, my heart breaks. I wish the jury could have seen that picture over and over again. That made him more of a person and more likeable to me than the slit throat pictures. I have a theory that no man who truly loves a little dog can be anything but good.

Jodi Arias is a murderer. But I think it Jodi helped that Travis didn't come off as likeable as he should have. And that's a shame.

You are right; however, that is only because he is pulled out of his culture and judged by the standards of the mainstream American culture. That is a problem because Mormonism is deemed to be one of only two genuine subcultures in the country. Mormonism and the Amish.

Travis Alexander, like all Mormon boys, grow up being interviewed about their sexuality by their bishops and other leaders from the age of 12 onward. They learn to lie because if they admit to masturbating when they are twelve, they will not be allowed to pass the bread and water at the next Sunday's meeting and everyone will know they have done something really bad--and everyone knows what it is if it's a 12 year old boy.

My point is that lying about sexual behavior is pretty much standard in the LDS world, just as it would be in any other venue. If you are publicly humiliated for masturbating, you would have to be an idiot to keep admitting it. Missionaries, if admitting to masturbating, are sent home or given extreme punishment. The Mormon church is serious about chastity, all right, but it has an unintended consequence.

Everybody gets used to lying and that spills over so you see a person like Travis who has character in other areas of his life and is not honorable and truthful in his sex life. Young people find a way to enjoy each others' bodies and Mormons are no exception. When I was at BYU they had "veil parties" where the college kids would lower the lights and the women would walk through the dimly lighted room wearing only veils and the guys would have to guess who it was. These are the same girls who were required by BYU standards to never even wear a sleeveless blouse and who always dressed modestly.

It is human nature to feel like your sexuality is nobody's business but your own.

I am telling you all of this not to bash anybody's faith or religion, but to have a genuine discussion to understand that Travis Alexander's behavior was that of a ladies' man, but he wasn't that bad compared with other Mormon men in his age group. He kept trying to get away from her but when she was there with all her charms, he was weak. We all know that once you have had good sex with somebody, it's hard not to want it again when you are near them. Jodi knew this and used it to her advantage, trying to blackmail him. When he could not be blackmailed, IMO, that's when she went to plan B--the plan to kill him to shut him up permanently.

And she succeeded. He's dead and she's famous. Nobody knows what the horrible thing she did that he was going to expose because it is eclipsed by the horrible thing she did when she killed him.

It infuriates me that Travis' texts are held against him when there are multiple phone calls, the content of which we cannot know. That her behavior that sparked his mean comments cannot be exposed because he was kind enough not to call the police?

I agree that he comes off as not likable. I think he was not only likable, he was loved by everyone who knew him and his sexual lies should be viewed as having been learned behavior which is common in his peer group.

His biggest failing is that he wouldn't give up on Jodi Arias. When everyone else saw her for a manipulative, vindictive Beeyotch, he still saw good in her. She milked that for every last drop, then when the good will was gone, (I believe) she rolled him and left town.

He threatened to end her milk and honey days being the Hottie Biscotti of Prepaid Legal, which was her only connection to the Next Man. If you look at her life, this tick jumped from man to man, roommate to roommate, and that's how she rolled. Prepaid Legal was a bonanza for her parasitic lifestyle and Travis had no right to take it from her.

The foreman has limited information and is under the delusion that he has MORE information than the public. He is obviously driven by ego and a feeling of power, becoming the benevolent fatherly figure who, from day one, could not even believe this young "girl" could do such a gruesome thing...why then she must a had a good reason...

Too bad the jurors didn't put him up for perjury during jury selection.

 

[GreenEyesBlue]

Here is my take on it. I think it's very difficult to wrap one's head around the crime that was committed and who committed it. I think as a jury member I would struggle with the "why" question - I think some juror's came up with their own mitigating factors, and that was allowed. If they think she has a personality disorder, they may have factored that in. She's not normal, she's off. Maybe they feel like some of us did, that her parents should have gotten her help when she was young, and her problems just got worse over the years.

I have a feeling the hold outs struggled with finding a reason why she would do such a thing. Some people don't believe in pure evil, they want a reason for this act and there is no logical reason here.

I am upset about the "verdict" but I can understand where they might have struggled with the death penalty.

I'll say it again, I'm just thankful they voted for Murder 1 and it was unanimously premeditated. They DID get it right.

ITA, and I find myself dismayed at many of the comments being made about the jury.

This jury was made of of human beings just like the rest of us, with responsibilities, families, joys, despairs, illnesses, etc. just like the rest of us. Yet, they did their duty admirably. They showed up every day despite their personal lives, and did the job that was asked of them. And, they did it with constant unexplained delays and an interminable number of sidebars.

Perhaps they did look for a motive even though the state does not have to prove one. That is simply a natural, human reaction when looking at a crime, especially one committed so heinously by someone who had no criminal record. Perhaps they did not connect with the victim, but TA was not not in that courtroom, his living, breathing essence could not be there to show the jurors who he really was. The video of him with his friends was muted, and the only speaking they heard was on the sex tape. The autopsy pictures were horrendous, but they told the jurors nothing of who Travis was, just what happened to him.

Not long ago a list was made of what the jurors didn't know that we did. If I remember, that was a long list. These jurors had to find the facts only from the information presented, exhibited and rebutted in court. And, in that regard, no matter what the defense threw at them, they did magnificently. First degree, premeditated murder. Then they went further. They found it especially cruel.

After that it was a question of death or life. A death qualified jury does not mean because an aggravating factor was proven that the jury must return a verdict of death. Nor does the jury have to rely on any of the mitigating factors given to them. None of us know the reason for the 8-4 split, but whatever they found and believed to be a mitigating factor was for them to decide. Many have applauded the 8 who stuck to their guns, yet chide the 4 who did the same thing.

Yes, I'm angry, upset, devastated and horrified that the Alexander family must continue on this long road to justice. But, I don't believe disparaging this jury who also walked a long road to justice for Travis is warranted.

And, most of all, I wish them peace. Peace from the nightmares that the autopsy photos are sure to induce. Peace from the guilt they will feel after they see what was withheld from them at trial. Peace from the public who wish ill on them simply because they did what they believed was right.

Justice is coming to the evil murderer, and I pray this to be the most hollow victory she ever experiences.

 

[elementary]

the foreman happens to be a semi-public personality in AZ.

 

[AZWatcher]

That's pretty much what I was trying to say.

Defending the jurors doesn't mean I hate the Alexanders. It just means I think they did their jobs.

I really am alarmed by the anger directed at the jurors, though. They didn't kill Travis.

MOO

Hiya Frayed...

I think it looks like anger... it's more frustration.

ETA: I just caught up ... We be PIZZED!

 

[jennapuppy]

I'll go a step further and say that it is likely that Travis had some knowledge of illegal doings on JA's part and that is what he meant when he said that soon everyone would know and would spit in her face.

He caught her stealing or skimming (stealing) or some other easily proved crime and was gonna blow the whistle soon. It wasn't Cancun, or being called a sociopath, IMO, it was something else.

I've had this thought, as well. I really don't think the murder had anything to do with the Cancun trip, and may have been more about making sure her secrets died with him. Having sex with him before the murder, though... that was pure sociopath.

In that last text msg, he told her that she was the worst thing that had ever happened to him and that he wanted nothing to do with her. She made sure that he ate those words before she killed him. In her twisted mind, that ensured that she was the "winner" in every sense.
IMO

 

[kayice]

PHOENIX — The jury foreman in Jodi Arias' trial says the panel just couldn't decide whether the killing of her boyfriend was enough to merit a death a sentence.

William Zervakos tells The Associated Press jurors struggled with what they called a flawed system, explaining Arias wasn't "Jeffrey Dahmer or Charles Manson." They thought it was unfair that 12 average Americans who aren't lawyers had to make such a crucial decision.

The 69-year-old said Friday the entire panel believed the slaying was no doubt brutal. But he says they had to take into account Arias' lack of a criminal history or any previous violent behavior.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/24/arias-jury_n_3330897.html

Who did Charles Manson actually kill? Or did he just manipulate people because he is a sociopath? like someone else we know who managed to manipulate more people than Charles Manson... and she did savagely kill someone.

 

[Quester]

How did the juror/s even make it past voir dire with sentiments expressed in the following?

Once those sentiments were discovered, shouldn't that/those juror/s have been removed and replaced when it became clear to other jurors that those were their views?

[WZ, the foreman] tells The Associated Press jurors struggled with what they called a flawed system, explaining Arias wasn't "Jeffrey Dahmer or Charles Manson." They thought it was unfair that 12 average Americans who aren't lawyers had to make such a crucial decision.

http://dailyjournalonline.com/news/...cle_ec0512b3-8f2f-54ca-ba40-abd66f7854bc.html​

OMG! Flawed system? How about flawed jurors! :banghead:

 

[janx]

The sister's FB account is public. If you have a FB account, just type her name (Angela Grayson) and it will come up. She doesn't say anything about her mother being there with her, but I do believe she was.

Why do you believe she was if there is no evidence of it? I'm not trying to be confrontational. Phoenix is three and a half hours from the Grand Canyon--four, if you factor in a stop along the way, parking, etc.

I think that it was awful her fam wasn't at the courthouse, but it's a stretch to assume that her mother was almost four hours away...?

 

[RR0004]

He does not strike as the sort of person with a fully developed pie-hole-shutting
skill set.

Now, this is why I have turned off the tv and have come here for the latest news. I can't stop laughing!!
Thanks!

 

[DAWN TREADER]

Fair??? Fair??? Really, Bill? What would be fair according to Bill?

I know .... :banghead:

 

[ShadyLady]

What's not fair? That it's going to be brutally difficult or that the state has to even go down that road as a result of the jurors being unable to come to a unanimous verdict?

======================

Now the penalty phase will have to be done all over again with another jury. Bill Zevakos says finding another impartial jury will be almost impossible.

“I just think it's going to be brutally difficult and quite frankly i don't think it's fair.”

http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/6389-jodi-ariass-juror-opens-up-about-trial

OMG...this man should stfu. He just keeps digging. Sounds like he is upset poor Jodi might have to face the chair. Next he will be sending her books or magazine subscriptions.

WHY does he keep defending her???? :stormingmad:

 

[Litig8r]

I don't think her peers will appreciate Jodi.

I think Jodi will be in the same place as this chick. I don't get the impression jodi would be welcomed with open arms.

Cold Blooded Woman Angela Simpson Interview After Getting Life In Prison! - YouTube

Never thought I'd say this about a convicted murderer, and torturess, but that was very refreshing after the overdose of JA spins and manipulations. I'm not condoning what the woman in the video did, but I appreciated her "yup, I did it because it needed to be done and I'd do it again" attitude. Again, not condoning her actions, or her lack of remorse. Just simply appreciating her candor.