Verdict Watch Discussion Thread

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Actually, makes a lot of sense.

I'd have to go back through very old posts, but I seem to recall it being reported that SB and WD had been watching tv (WD said he had been watching the hockey game) and WD came out to join SB for a smoke in the garage. WD's accommodation was in the basement.
 
Not shocking to read that DM also communicated by letters to SS, ignoring his Do Not Contact order just like when he wrote to CN from jail. MB keeping SS on the payroll had a method to its madness, although AC reports that the letters to SS mainly talked about SS taking care of DM's cars. I bet there was also code language in those letters!

All MOO

I suppose Madeline Burns transported those letters as well?
SMH


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I posted quite a while ago, asking if perhaps Tim had taken the car for a quick drive after having washed it for the viewing. I've always felt that was a possibility and if SB and WD were in the house, they may not have even known about it.
I thought Tim Bosma had a truck..? did they want to see a car, or a truck|? tia
 
This is my first post although I've been following this trial since the beginning.

I think the jury will be out for at least 2-3 weeks, perhaps a month or more based on my own experience serving on a jury.

This case I served on (not famous, years ago) was far less complex with much less evidence, had only 1 defendant and we listened to only 3 1/2 days of testimony/evidence before deliberating, - it took us most of a day to reach a verdict. Everyone on the jury I served on took it very seriously and we wanted to take our time to do it properly. In our case, we took two polls over the verdict and discussed why we felt the way we did. (We were mostly in agreement but wanted to be sure we carefully considered the evidence.) It's a huge responsibility and exhausting to sit in court listening intently for several days. (I realize the entire process has been much, much harder for the Bosma family and their friends.) The judge has given several possible verdicts and there are 2 defendants and a huge amount of evidence that may be cited so it's naive IMHO to expect a quick verdict although we all want to see justice done for Tim.

In IMHO, the difficulty will be with Smich's verdict as there is far more evidence for Millard. I think Millard will get definitely get 1st degree murder, Smich 1st or 2nd degree murder (I'd vote for 1st myself based on his interest & messages about the incinerator and I feel he tailored his testimony to the evidence.) I realize it is upsetting hearing about the evidence that is excluded but the judges want to reduce the chance of a mistrial or appeal.

BTW, the jury is mostly alone when deliberating. The matron will check in on them (bring them lunch and dinner) and will ask them late afternoon/evening if they are close to a verdict so that they know if they can make arrangements if there is a need to go to a hotel overnight. (In the trial I served on, we reached a verdict and we not sequestered overnight) although we were told to bring a bag with a change of clothing that last day of testimony/closing arguments.The same was true with my husband's jury (he was not sequestered overnight either - in our case, we told each other that we'd phone after we were released from the jury after reaching a verdict, otherwise to assume that we were sequestered. as you aren't allowed to call family.) In this case, I'm sure the jurors were prepared with suitcases as the end of the trial approached. (For lengthy trials like this, jurors are asked if the projected length will cause a hardship for them financially and excused if it will. According to a lawyers in my family, long trails tend to have a greater proportion of people who are retired, homemakers, students and govt employees because most others are excused for long trials. )

In Canada, we aren't asked questions when we are selected - the process when I was selected (over 20 years ago) was that the jury panel (about 100 people or so) would be called down to a courtroom and the court clerk would pull names out of drum. When your name was called, you'd stand up and go to the front of the court and your occupation would be stated (which you'd put on the form earlier). The judge would then say "juror look upon the accused, accused look upon the juror" and then the crown and defense would say "accept" (you'd take your place on the jury), or "challenge" (you'd be told to sit down as you were not chosen) or (if I'd remember correctly "pass", which means you'd go into a pool to be reconsidered.). The crown and defense were allowed only so many "challenges" and "pass".. On my panel, we had the theory that if you didn't meet the accused's eyes, you would not be chosen. I don't know if it's true but in my case, it did happened that way.I was not chosen for 1 case (child sexual abuse), was passed over for the second case (rape/sexual abuse). The second case had a new panel chosen because one of the chosen jurors' child had dated the defense attorney's assistant but did not say anything until later. When I was selected (I did look at the accused more directly the second time I was asked), I did ask if the doctor testifying would be Dr. X (my then family doctor) as she was at the time on a rape crisis team at a hospital in my city. (I was told "no". The matron told me that I was correct in asking as my then family doctor often testified - the testifying doctor in this case was from another hospital on the other side of the city who I did not know.)

I spent 2 weeks on jury duty - the first week in the panel room (I wasn't selected until the second week.) It was extremely dull, many people bought reading or knitting - I understand some of the courthouses now have videos to watch to pass the time waiting to be called down. The second week I was chosen Monday afternoon. My husband was chosen immediately for the trial he served on - but it was during the summer, the panel was excused for the second week as there were fewer trials that summer.

I do remember the first day, a court official telling our panel that our deliberations were to remain secret and there would be "none of that OJ Simpson nonsense" (jurors talking to the media like they do in the US.)

Hope this answers some questions people have had about juries.

All in MOO, if anyone else has served on a jury more recently, they may be aware of changes I'm not.
 
One things I know about juries in Canada that differs from what we might expect is that by law their deliberations are secret. So we would never see the kind of juror interviews or tell-all books like we see in some American cases. Whatever their verdict, we won't know how they got there.

--jury deliberations in the U.S. are also secret, they are guarded, but alone in the jury room----no audio/video/notes.

--jurors in the U.S. ( as we've seen trial after trial) are given the option as they are discharged by the Judge, that they may choose to speak, or not, the decision is theirs.

--is this not the same in Canada?
 
Jurors in Canada are told that their deliberations must remain secret even after they are discharged. (I served on a jury here in Canada (Ontario) a number of years ago). I think it is a criminal offense to talk about the deliberations after.
 
.

When the information first came out about the "two extra truck sightings" it was plausible to consider TB had maybe run to the store or went to wash his truck .... until we were given the SS timeline that it happened between the Yukon arriving and the Yukon & truck departing so there is no way it could have been Tim

I sure hope the jury isn't getting all mucked up by going through every bit of testimony ... it will take them months to get through it and just end up right back where they should be today ... making the major decisions.
 
--jury deliberations in the U.S. are also secret, they are guarded, but alone in the jury room----no audio/video/notes.

--jurors in the U.S. ( as we've seen trial after trial) are given the option as they are discharged by the Judge, that they may choose to speak, or not, the decision is theirs.

--is this not the same in Canada?

No, it is definitely different in Canada. This is what the judge said in his opening remarks to the jurors (on this specific topic):

"-jurors can't ever tell what happened in deliberations, even when the trial is finished, unlike in the USA"

From Canada's Criminal Code:
Disclosure of jury proceedings
649 Every member of a jury, and every person providing technical, personal, interpretative or other support services to a juror with a physical disability, who, except for the purposes of

  • (a) an investigation of an alleged offence under subsection 139(2) in relation to a juror, or
  • (b) giving evidence in criminal proceedings in relation to such an offence,
discloses any information relating to the proceedings of the jury when it was absent from the courtroom that was not subsequently disclosed in open court is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

  • R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 649;
  • 1998, c. 9, s. 7.
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-649.html


From the article linked below, written in 2013 in regard to the secrecy of jury deliberations in Canada:

The court identified two rationales which, in its view, made it essential to maintain the secrecy of jury deliberations. First, is the need to ensure full and frank debate by jurors without fear that disclosure of their deliberations might hold a juror up to ridicule or contempt. Second, is the need to ensure the privacy of jurors, and keep them free from censure or harassment.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/allan-rouben-let-the-jurors-talk
 
Interesting, or sadly judge Goodman said to the jury the crown was wrong to say "don't forget Tim" and go with the evidence. Forgetting,Tim, in their deliberations just seems wrong. This about Tim, it's his life they stole, not just a truck. I realize you can't convict someone of murder based on emotion. But forget Tim? That just seems cold. They went from stealing material stuff to stealing a man's life. Thankful the Bosma s presents there every day, will stick in the minds of the jurors as they face the task of sending these guys away for a long time. Protecting all. Jmo
 
Very interesting questions from the jury, imho. Seems they may be digging even deeper, and keeping open minds.

Have to say that, in the end, it has been shown on two counts now how damaging it can be for the prosecution to pick and choose which data to release and enter into evidence, based on their own theory(ies) of wht happened or what could have happened. One - the cellphone logs, I recall some testy discussion here about stuff missing, and why bother trying to match up things, and it isn't necessary to list ALL of the communications, even amongst those who will be witnesses at this trial, if they are irrelevant... but that is the whole thing. Nobody really knows what is relevant and what isn't until all of the evidence is in, and it is the jury's role to decide the facts. What harm is there in presenting ALL of the facts? Same with the video evidence at SS. Prosecution chooses to omit other data, because they believe it must be irrelevant because their timelines don't match, even though their expert forgot to record what he did to verify the times. Maybe it's irrelevant, maybe it's not. What if things aren't exactly as they thought? What if it makes a large difference in the end? Ugh.
 
I posted quite a while ago, asking if perhaps Tim had taken the car for a quick drive after having washed it for the viewing. I've always felt that was a possibility and if SB and WD were in the house, they may not have even known about it.

But wouldn't he get it all dirty again? I think that he has a gravel laneway, which would kick up dust onto his newly washed truck. If his road is also gravel, or even tar and chip, he certainly wouldn't want to drive anywhere after washing the truck.
 
Interesting, or sadly judge Goodman said to the jury the crown was wrong to say "don't forget Tim" and go with the evidence. Forgetting,Tim, in their deliberations just seems wrong. This about Tim, it's his life they stole, not just a truck. I realize you can't convict someone of murder based on emotion. But forget Tim? That just seems cold. They went from stealing material stuff to stealing a man's life. Thankful the Bosma s presents there every day, will stick in the minds of the jurors as they face the task of sending these guys away for a long time. Protecting all. Jmo

Just think for a moment.. say that the owner of this truck had been not TB, but instead, a low-life, good-for-nothing, drug-dealing wife-beater who had criminal convictions for despicable behaviour of his own. These two accuseds met at his home, took him for a test-drive, and did the exact same scenario as this. Is it fair that the accuseds' verdicts should have any link to how wonderful or not wonderful the person was who they murdered? What would the Crown say then to the jury? 'Don't forget the r@ts @$$ whose life they snuffed out'? If they did a favour to society for snuffing out 'that guy's' life, should they get off on their charges? Whatever the verdicts are for each of the accuseds shouldn't have a bearing on 'who' they killed, but rather, what they did. I think that is why it is expected to be considered and judged without emotion, imho.
 
Actually, makes a lot of sense.

Not really. Tim is already pissed that these guys are late and he's wondering where they are. Makes no sense that he'd just leave, even if only for ten minutes.


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Just think for a moment.. say that the owner of this truck had been not TB, but instead, a low-life, good-for-nothing, drug-dealing wife-beater who had criminal convictions for despicable behaviour of his own. These two accuseds met at his home, took him for a test-drive, and did the exact same scenario as this. Is it fair that the accuseds' verdicts should have any link to how wonderful or not wonderful the person was who they murdered? What would the Crown say then to the jury? 'Don't forget the r@ts @$$ whose life they snuffed out'? If they did a favour to society for snuffing out 'that guy's' life, should they get off on their charges? Whatever the verdicts are for each of the accuseds shouldn't have a bearing on 'who' they killed, but rather, what they did. I think that is why it is expected to be considered and judged without emotion, imho.
I do see your point, but they took a man's life. That's what this whole trial is about. I just feel, that so often it's the victim who is forgotten. Seems it is always about the accused rights. Personal I feel our justice system is flawed in that way. However, having said that, I do believe we have one of the best justice systems in the world. But it could be better remembering the victim who can no longer speak.. Knowing the family does not make me very objective sorry.
 
Interesting, or sadly judge Goodman said to the jury the crown was wrong to say "don't forget Tim" and go with the evidence. Forgetting,Tim, in their deliberations just seems wrong. This about Tim, it's his life they stole, not just a truck. I realize you can't convict someone of murder based on emotion. But forget Tim? That just seems cold. They went from stealing material stuff to stealing a man's life. Thankful the Bosma s presents there every day, will stick in the minds of the jurors as they face the task of sending these guys away for a long time. Protecting all. Jmo

Your mistake is that this trial is not about Tim, it's about Millard and Smich. The judge was absolutely correct in saying that. The fact that the victim is a nice guy or an a-hole should not affect the verdict one bit. People should be found guilty on facts, not emotion.


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littlesauce, Can you explain what you were talking about earlier today please? What pieces of evidence were kept under ban because of DM's requests?

Sorry, I just saw this. The judge referred to specific dates/legal arguments that were to be kept under ban. (I didn't take note, so I can't remember exact references), he did also say something to the effect of information related to the LB case is to be kept under ban as well. (Horrible memory and running on minimal sleep with my 1 year old lol, please forgive me for not remembering more specific pieces)
 
Your mistake is that this trial is not about Tim, it's about Millard and Smich. The judge was absolutely correct in saying that. The fact that the victim is a nice guy or an a-hole should not affect the verdict one bit. People should be found guilty on facts, not emotion.

I understand your point and you are correct. This is why I am not good juror material I would find it hard to separate emotion from facts. I do believe there is more than enough evidence to convict DM with 1 st. But I am worried about MS is there enough? The after trial stuff confirmed it in my mind. But I worry how the jury will see it? What's your thoughts? Like I said it's very difficult to be objective, I am trying.
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Not sure why this won't post...
 
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