Verdict Watch

[ncsu95]

Forgive me for the off topic question, but I have to ask ... Madeleine74, you've made a couple of general remarks in the last couple of NC trials that I find very insightful, such as your first sentence above. Just lookin for a G or NG reply ... where do you stand on the Amanda Knox verdict?

I know you aren't asking me....but Amanda Knox is completely innocent and has been absolutely railroaded.

 

[otto]

As I was attempting to discuss the other day, most of these types have prior histories with women too. I was watching the ID Channel last night. Remember Jasimine Fiore? I can't recall the guys name right now, but he was on a number of reality shows, 'Megan Want's a Millionaire'? He murdered Ms. Fiore, cut up her body to stuff her in a suitcase, and disposed of her. He had a history in Canada, his native country, of assault on a female. These types of crimes seldom happen in a vacuum IMO. There are certain personality traits......as you said, CONTROL is often a big issue.

Ryan Jenkins - came from a good family, privileged, father set him up for financial success, but he was spoiled. I believe his previous altercation was considered to be fairly minor, a first offense and there was no criminal record in exchange for some kind of anger counselling. I wouldn't go so far as to say that he had a history of assault, but would instead view the murder as a result of two people that should not have been together - two people that were in a love/hate relationship; pushing each other's buttons until it ended in murder. I think the Cooper murder was similar - pushing each other's buttons. The murder of Michelle may have had some similar problems - we didn't hear too much about their personal relationship. Brad and Jason were married because of pregnancy, which may be a factor that sits in the back of their minds as having forced them to make major life decisions that they weren't completely comfortable with - that could lead to serious resentment, especially if there is a lot of marital conflict.

 

[RaleighNative]

Does anyone on this thread believe there was indeed a second murderer? Or that JY had help?

I simply do not believe there was a second person involved. I'm a bit surprised JY was smart enough to think of getting a pair of smaller shoes to wear.

If anyone here does believe there was a second attacker, could you please elaborate on your theory? Thanks in advance!

 

[otto]

Thanks everyone for your congrats. It still doesn't feel real. Which leads me to more comments on JY's testimony that he was "shocked but excited" immediately when finding out MY was pregnant.

I didn't believe JY was excited about the pregnancy for one second. And now from my experience just about 24 hours ago, I DEFINITELY don't believe it. My husband and I are both a little shellshocked and it doesn't feel real...this was completely unexpected and there will be a 7 year gap between our child and this new one. It doesn't feel real, and neither of us were jumping for joy. We were just kind of slackjawed.

And here's our situation. Together 12 years, experienced parents, both educated, both established in our careers, and in an excellent financial situation. Plus we have local family and friends for lots of support. Yet we're still shocked and of course worried about the health of the pregnancy since it was unplanned.

Yet JY and MY were not married, had a rocky relationship, fought fairly constantly, were not yet established in their careers, had allegations of infidelity (confirmed infidelity by JY in his testimony), and their friends thought they were not a good couple and should break up (lack of support). Plus we have the shocking lack of maturity of JY...he was clearly not ready to settle down in any way.

And JY claims they were both shocked but excited? Bull$*!^. I'm sure the allegation that he initially insisted MY have an abortion is true.

Congratulations! ... and thanks for your insights. I think the "abortion" comment is probably true, but it sounds like there were so many harsh words and so much conflict in the marriage that Jason could have said it simply to inflict emotional pain.

 

[Madeleine74]

BC did not sit and wait in the courtroom - he was only brought in when the judge was to address the court - for a break, instructions, jury request, etc. I sat right behind his team in court so I saw it all - the room where he sits is just through a door off to the right once he leaves the courtroom. So Jason is sitting in the same seat Brad did. Weird.

Ah okay thanks. The only time I saw the courtroom during delib. was when the camera was turned on and I guess those were the times he was allowed back in the courtroom. Yep, same chair. Kind of ironic.

 

[fran]

So, does anyone know if that was a lunch break? I mean, IF it was only that, why was the def in the courtoom? No reason for that IMO.

Perhaps the jury had a question but then resolved it before the courtoom entrance?

OTOH, IF that was lunch, it was kinda' early. IMHO, if they're taking that early of a lunch, perhaps they want to eat before they go back into the courtoom. to announce the verdict!

IF that were true, a quick verdict, IIRCC, usually means NG. OTOH, a case just the other day, I believe the jury was out for less than 3 hours before they came back with a Murder 1. Of course, the guy confessed and then plead not guilty. His confession was admissible. Sick, sick, guy. Even smiled when the jury announced the guilty verdict.

JMHO
fran

 

[Madeleine74]

Does anyone on this thread believe there was indeed a second murderer? Or that JY had help?

I personally do not believe there was an accomplice at the murder scene. It does not seem that far-fetched to me that JLY could have put on a smaller pair of shoes to try and throw things off. As for help from his family afterwards...in Brevard...well...I think that's possible.

 

[otto]

I thought I heard the discussion the other day in the courtroom, when the jury was NOT present, of the judge discussing the 'accomplice' part and the Murder 1 vs possible Murder 2.

I believe the judge said there's enough evidence from the crime scene and the victim's body, to indicate that the 'intention' of the person who committed the crime was nothing else except to KILL the victim.

I think he means that the extreme damage done, (ie the amount of blows), the INTENT was to KILL and there's no way this could have been 'not planned' as while the perp was striking, they COULD have stopped, but they intended to KILL them, so they just kept striking, over and over and over. And, IMHO, did a little back-up of strangulation.

OTOH, about the possibility of a 2nd perp. There are two items that COULD be questionable and IF there were a 2nd perp it could have been them. Like the gas, for one, ...............and IMHO, the size 10 shoe print. Although the pros came up with a plausible explanation on how it could have been JY, the judge thought IF there was a 2nd person involved, the def would be guilty just as the other guy, as basically stated above, the INTENT was to KILL and BOTH, (if there is another) would be just as guilty as the other.

JMHO
fran

I think the accomplice theory was considerd by police for a long time, and investigators may still believe there was an accomplice. Where I can see a problem is in connecting Jason to an accomplice. It's not a "stranger" accomplice as there is absolutely no evidence connecting Jason to a stranger via electronic communication, phone, or a pay off. It may be a "friend" accomplice, but again that seems a bit of a stretch. I'm sure that all of Jason's close friends and relatives were investigated in terms of timelines and it seems that no other suspects emerged. That leaves the question of: if there was an accomplice and it's not a stranger or someone investigated by police, then who? It has to be someone that police know nothing about, someone that Jason has had no contact with in the past several years - and that seems a little unbelievable. Furthermore, there was no evidence during trial of an accomplice. It seems to be some sort of dangling idea that the jury should consider even though it was not discussed during trial.

 

[iucpa]

I'm headed to grab lunch and then to the courtroom. Anyone know when their lunch is today?

 

[RaleighNC]

They have 10 minutes before my prediction expires- they better get crackin'

 

[borndem]

Does anyone know what the recent, about 20 minutes ago, movement in the courtroom was? It appeared the Fishers were picking up their things and leaving. Jury on break?

How were you able to find out about this, glee? Is the camera still on in the courtroom? If so,which TV stations? Thanks, my WS pal!

 

[Madeleine74]

Otto,

I believe that Amanda Knox is not guilty of that murder, as well as her boyfriend at the time. There's a 3rd guy and I believe he is the sole murderer--his DNA was in the victim's bedroom.

 

[gracielee]

Ah okay thanks. The only time I saw the courtroom during delib. was when the camera was turned on and I guess those were the times he was allowed back in the courtroom. Yep, same chair. Kind of ironic.

Let's hope it's just as *lucky* for JLY as it was for BC. :maddening:

 

[Goldenblatt]

No accomplice. JY did it and I believe karma will get him even if this jury doesn't.

BTW, I found out I was pregnant after my oldest went away to school. 18 years between kiddos. Shell shocked does not adequately describe what was going on when I found out! Just got this one graduated from HS last month, so I have had kids at home for 36 years in a row. Empty nest is looking very good right now.:great:

 

[lib's mom]

Ryan Jenkins - came from a good family, privileged, father set him up for financial success, but he was spoiled. I believe his previous altercation was considered to be fairly minor, a first offense and there was no criminal record in exchange for some kind of anger counselling. I wouldn't go so far as to say that he had a history of assault, but would instead view the murder as a result of two people that should not have been together - two people that were in a love/hate relationship; pushing each other's buttons until it ended in murder. I think the Cooper murder was similar - pushing each other's buttons. The murder of Michelle may have had some similar problems - we didn't hear too much about their personal relationship. Brad and Jason were married because of pregnancy, which may be a factor that sits in the back of their minds as having forced them to make major life decisions that they weren't completely comfortable with - that could lead to serious resentment, especially if there is a lot of marital conflict.

BBM
otto-The Cooper's weren't married because of pregnancy. They married quickly because Brad had gotten the job in NC and they had to be married if Nancy was going to be able to come with him on his work visa.

 

[dgfred]

Forgive me for the off topic question, but I have to ask ... Madeleine74, you've made a couple of general remarks in the last couple of NC trials that I find very insightful, such as your first sentence above. Just lookin for a G or NG reply ... where do you stand on the Amanda Knox verdict?

I'm interested too... even tho OT for Madeleine's :twocents: .

 

[otto]

I know you aren't asking me....but Amanda Knox is completely innocent and has been absolutely railroaded.

I smiled when I read your comment, as it seems that when we take some of the statements written in relation to this murder, and apply them to another case, we end up with a bit of a contradiction. It has been suggested that people that doubt a jury decision are (don't remember the exact wording) wearing tinfoil hats. It has been suggested that some require a note beside the body saying "I did it" before they accept circumstantial evidence such as the lack of assailant's DNA, fiber evidence, blood from the assailant, injuries to the assailant and so on.

 

[gracielee]

Otto,

I believe that Amanda Knox is not guilty of that murder, as well as her boyfriend at the time. There's a 3rd guy and I believe he is the sole murderer--his DNA was in the victim's bedroom.

Yup, the third guy, Rudy?? was a known burglar, fled the country the very next day after the murder. Amanda Knox and her bf fell under suspicion because of their somewhat odd behaviors afterwards. I mean, who does cart=wheels in the police station. :banghead:

 

[otto]

Otto,

I believe that Amanda Knox is not guilty of that murder, as well as her boyfriend at the time. There's a 3rd guy and I believe he is the sole murderer--his DNA was in the victim's bedroom.

It's a similar case of circumstantial evidence and a jury verdict of guilt. If jury verdicts are to be considered unreliable, then are those that disagree with the verdict - as in the Cooper case and possibly in this case - wearing tinfoil hats, or are they viewing the evidence differently ... such that circumstantial evidence should be overlooked and juries get it all wrong?

 

[dgfred]

I smiled when I read your comment, as it seems that when we take some of the statements written in relation to this murder, and apply them to another case, we end up with a bit of a contradiction. It has been suggested that people that doubt a jury decision are (don't remember the exact wording) wearing tinfoil hats. It has been suggested that some require a note beside the body saying "I did it" before they accept circumstantial evidence such as the lack of assailant's DNA, fiber evidence, blood from the assailant, injuries to the assailant and so on.

Yes, MEGA-contradiction. The 'other case' participants should be VERY thankful they were not tried in North Carolina.