Viable suspect: Damien Echols

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As I said before, the interview linked above was done about six weeks after release. IMO, Damien is nervous because he is still adjusting to being with a lot of people. Jason was not isolated as Damien was. Therefore, his adjustment to crowds was easier. Damien, being isolated as he was, had a harder time. Hence the possible nervous gestures. As to the eyes, he never claimed it was that any light hurt his eyes, although that was part of it as he was not used to natural light. His claim was that, because he never had to look at something more than a few feet away, he was losing the ability to do so. Hence, the dark glasses. Personally, I think he has made a remarkable adjustment. Although I don't agree with everything he has done since release, I am still amazed that he can lead as normal a life as he is.

I'm not going to argue with a "verified psychiatric mental health nurse" about a medical condition, but I'd like to point out that the tremor in the first posted video appears to me to be an involuntary action, as the name "tremor" implies. When I look at Damien's actions in those other two clips, they appear to me to be voluntary actions, not "tremors" at all! Yes, he talks a lot with his hands, as do many creative people. Yes, he occasionally rubs his thumb and forefinger together. IMO, this appears to be a personal idiosyncrasy or perhaps a habit, but definitely not a tremor. I'm sure if I researched I could find an example of someone who no one would believe to be on anti psychotic medication doing the same thing! I just looked down at my hands, and I was rubbing my thumb and forefinger together - and I assure you that I'm not and never have been on anti psychotics! So, I believe that Damien's actions could have another explanation, other than tardive dyskinesia, but that's MOO!

What's funny is as I was reading your last statement I realized I too, was rubbing my index finger over my thumb nail.

I watched the interview posted and personally I don't see how he is holding his hand in a peculiar way, I couldn't for the life of me see any tremors. Looked to me as though he must just get some kind of comfort from rubbing his fingers together.

After doing a quick search of the condition and watching a few more videos I can't see how anyone could make the leap of describing similar actions here.

jmo.
 
JMO but to dismiss DE extensively documented mental health history as an exaggeration by licensed mental health professionals so that this young man might get SSI or for any other "reason" is ludicrous to say the least. DE is/was mentally ill. Hospitals don't need to admit healthy individuals and make up mental health symptoms. There are waiting lists to get into these hospitals and admitting criteria is strict. Mental health professionals are well trained and licensed. Why would they risk their careers, education and licenses to make up lies for or about any patient? No reason I can think of...sounds like some people take "One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest" seriously. GMAB. JMO
 
I found a good summary from Damien's mental health history from an earlier thread: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7202273&postcount=176"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Summary of Damien's Mental Health History[/ame] references page numbers from the original report on Callahans .. http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/exh500.html
 
As I said before, the interview linked above was done about six weeks after release. IMO, Damien is nervous because he is still adjusting to being with a lot of people. Jason was not isolated as Damien was. Therefore, his adjustment to crowds was easier. Damien, being isolated as he was, had a harder time. Hence the possible nervous gestures. As to the eyes, he never claimed it was that any light hurt his eyes, although that was part of it as he was not used to natural light. His claim was that, because he never had to look at something more than a few feet away, he was losing the ability to do so. Hence, the dark glasses. Personally, I think he has made a remarkable adjustment. Although I don't agree with everything he has done since release, I am still amazed that he can lead as normal a life as he is.

I'm not going to argue with a "verified psychiatric mental health nurse" about a medical condition, but I'd like to point out that the tremor in the first posted video appears to me to be an involuntary action, as the name "tremor" implies. When I look at Damien's actions in those other two clips, they appear to me to be voluntary actions, not "tremors" at all! Yes, he talks a lot with his hands, as do many creative people. Yes, he occasionally rubs his thumb and forefinger together. IMO, this appears to be a personal idiosyncrasy or perhaps a habit, but definitely not a tremor. I'm sure if I researched I could find an example of someone who no one would believe to be on anti psychotic medication doing the same thing! I just looked down at my hands, and I was rubbing my thumb and forefinger together - and I assure you that I'm not and never have been on anti psychotics! So, I believe that Damien's actions could have another explanation, other than tardive dyskinesia, but that's MOO!

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7494860&postcount=58"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Why did the WM3 do it?[/ame]

Damien Echols has involuntary muscle movements/tremors called tardive dyskinesia. When he extends his hand, like many suffering with TD, he can stop the tremors. That's why his hand is in that funky position in the clip with idiot Piers Morgan. When Damien changes the position of his hand, the tremors start again. Another clinically significant event proving Damien has tardive dyskinesia is that Damien has been on (and I pray he still takes) antipsychotic meds. Damien Echols was given THREE MMPI tests on three different dates. Damien Echols was found to be schizophrenic in all three tests. Review the MMPI. This is a loooooong test which detects liars and malingerers. This is the most widely used and widely researched clinical assessment instrument used by mental health professionals. Damien is definitely schizophrenic and possibly bipolar as well.

Here is a warning about antipsychotic meds (even the newest atypicals). THIRTY percent of everyone who takes these WILL develop some involuntary tremor within the first year. TWENTY FIVE % of these people will PERMANENTLY have some variance of those tremors. Don't believe the pharmaceutical companies' advertising "misinformation"!

DO NOT LET YOUR LOVED ONES BE PUT ON ANTIPSYCHOTIC MEDS UNLESS THEY ARE PSYCHOTIC OR PRONE TO PSYCHOSIS. There are other effective medications for bipolar patients, ADHD children (yes, some incompetent psychiatrists prescribe these to little kids), ODD, Conduct Disorder, Major Depression (I HATE that Abilify commercial which fails to mention its incidence of TD. You think your are depressed now and need Abilify? Just wait until you develop permanent tremors from taking this medication.), and etc...

Pensfan
verified psychiatric mental health nurse
 
JMO but to dismiss DE extensively documented mental health history as an exaggeration by licensed mental health professionals so that this young man might get SSI or for any other "reason" is ludicrous to say the least. DE is/was mentally ill. Hospitals don't need to admit healthy individuals and make up mental health symptoms. There are waiting lists to get into these hospitals and admitting criteria is strict. Mental health professionals are well trained and licensed. Why would they risk their careers, education and licenses to make up lies for or about any patient? No reason I can think of...sounds like some people take "One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest" seriously. GMAB. JMO

I don't think they have a diabolical agenda to lie about patients but they operate under certain assumptions that can lead to people being misclassified. I had a friend in college who voluntarily admitted herself to a hospital's psychiatric wing for treatment of bullimia. She was shocked to learn that in her medical report her doctor had diagnosed her as hyper sexual. His evidence was that during a group art therapy session she and another girl had jokingly sculpted their clay into a penises. It's all about context. I could see someone saying "wow, how inappropriate, this girl has issues," whereas I was like, "really, just a penis, no balls too?...amateur."

My point is, they are trained to look for dysfunction. If you set out to find that in someone, you will.
 
JMO but to dismiss DE extensively documented mental health history as an exaggeration by licensed mental health professionals so that this young man might get SSI or for any other "reason" is ludicrous to say the least. DE is/was mentally ill.
It's particularly ludicrous given how Echols doesn't even acknowledge the details of his documented mental heath history himself, but rather leaves it to his supporters to dream up arguments to explain them all away for him.
 
JMO but mental health professionals EVALUATE behavior....its what they do and they know what they are doing. It doesn't mean they look for dysfunction. They also do look for fakers and find quite a few. FWIW. JMO
 
JMO but mental health professionals EVALUATE behavior....its what they do and they know what they are doing. It doesn't mean they look for dysfunction. They also do look for fakers and find quite a few. FWIW. JMO

Half the the people I know have conned shrinks into scrips for Xanax or adderall to party on. The few people that actually sought treatment for legitimate problems ended up having incredible trouble finding a doctor they could actually work with. It's not like taking an X-ray or running some blood work.
 
I've yet to see anyone do that, but I agree that it's an absurd argument. That said, most of what I quoted is Echols writings, and again I consider of how he used what are quotes in that and the fact that he sent them to Shettles as indicative of a very disturbed mind.

And I consider Damien's writings to Shettles to be indicative of teen angst combined with frustration over his situation. It is possible that, if he had been told what was being attempted, he exaggerated his symptoms in an attempt to avoid the Death Penalty. Whatever the reason for his writings, some teenagers often write disturbing things, for a multitude of reasons. Writing these things doesn't make one a murderer - a person of interest, yes, but it's simply not proof of murder - and it wasn't presented as such. So, again, why some people continue to point to Exhibit 500 with the "OMG! This guy is crazy! He could've totally done this!" I simply don't understand.

I'm pretty sure Fogleman never did that.

I'm pretty sure he did. I remember the scene in one of the documentaries, showing Fogleman with Damien's notebook, reading from it, and slamming it shut. I remember what he read was something about looking favorably on my sacrifice. That was a song lyric. Unfortunately, I can't find it in the transcript, but I'll watch the documentaries again (I think it's in the first one) and tell you at what time it occurs. My guess is that it might be during the blank spot mentioned in the closing argument.

ETA: OK. I found it. It's in Fogleman's Closing Argument:

That right there tells you Damien Echols. He don't wanna be in the white. He don't wanna be good. He wants to be both, where he can go to the good side or the bad side, however it suits his purpose. If he wants to do bad, let's goes to the satanic side. If he wants to be good, he goes to the Wiccan side. That poem right there tells you about Damien Echols. Now, wanna go back to these in and of itself things. Remember Mr. Price asking, probably Mr. Griffis--about is there anything that would motivate somebody to kill, about a spell about "improving the memory" or about a "love charm," to "stop bleeding," to "improve your chance of success", a "cure for worms"? Are those evil? Well, no. "A cure for cramps," evil? No. He left out one, for some reason. "Sacrifice addressed to Hecate." I don't know why he left that out. Says in here, I'm not gonna read the whole thing to you. It talks about "a friend and companion of darkness. You who rejoice to see the blood flow. Wandering among the tombs and hours of darkness thirsty for blood, and the terror of mortal men. Look favorably on my sacrifice." I don't know why he didn't read that to y'all.

Here is the song he was quoting. Except the end was from the Bible!
 
It's particularly ludicrous given how Echols doesn't even acknowledge the details of his documented mental heath history himself, but rather leaves it to his supporters to dream up arguments to explain them all away for him.

Is it that strange for someone to be embarrassed by his behavior as a teenager?
 
Half the the people I know have conned shrinks into scrips for Xanax or adderall to party on. The few people that actually sought treatment for legitimate problems ended up having incredible trouble finding a doctor they could actually work with. It's not like taking an X-ray or running some blood work.

Hi Schuby! Yes, but Damien was hospitalised numerous times in two different states .. read below ..


Many posters have asked for page numbers referencing Exhibit 500, so here is a revised copy.

SUMMARY OF DAMIEN ECHOLS’ MENTAL HEALTH HISTORY

Source: Exhibit 500 http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/exh500.html
Page numbers are in parentheses.


5/7/92.* E. Arkansas Mental Health Center:* Client admits to having been suspended seven times this past semester for initiating fights at school and starting fires.* States in one fight he almost gouged out the victim’s eyes. (29)

6/1/92 - 6/25/92.* Committed to Charter Hospital of Little Rock:* Admits to a history of violence and attempting to scratch out the eyes of a classmate.* There were major concerns that Damien was exhibiting disturbed thinking.* He has a history of extreme physical aggression toward others.* It was felt that he needed to be temporarily removed from his environment to provide protection for him and protection for others. ( 92, 188).

Damien states, “I burn myself with lighters. I have huffed gas and paint, used speed, marijuana, glue, and alcohol.” (232).

Psychosocial Assessment: Patient appeared to be sniffing the air around him as if he were responding to an external stimulus. He also cut his eyes in one direction or the other; may have been experiencing auditory hallucinations. (237).

Verbalized concern that there are surveillance cameras behind his mirror and under his desk. Quite paranoid, drawing symbols. Damien definitely bears watching. ( 281, 297).

Damien states, “If he (girlfriend’s father) had hit her, I would have blown him away. Next time I will eliminate that person.” (295). Damien also threatened to kill police officers. (366).

Mother concerned that son “not learning to deal with anger and rages.” Mother said Damien might be responding to outside stimulation, voiced fear that “son may be crazy.” (301).

Psychological Report: The behavior of this youngster is characterized by impulsive hostility...the desire to gain power and demean others springs from animosity and a wish to vindicate past grievances.* This teenager believes that past degradations may be undone by provoking fear and intimidation in others.* Cool and distant, this youth demonstrates little or no compassion for others. (212)

6/25/92: Discharged to mother with instructions for continuing care. Family moving to Oregon. (309)

9/2/92 - 9/4/92. Committed to St. Vincent’s Hospital in Oregon. Patient denies suicidal or homicidal ideation. However, in talking with family members, they state that he made it quite clear that he had thoughts of harming other people, i.e. was going to cut his mother’s throat and made verbal threats to his father in the emergency room. (104). Because of Damien’s threats, both parents do not want him to return to their home.* They are frightened of him and what he can do, not only to them but to the two other children who reside in the home.* Damien is to return to Arkansas by bus. (150).

9/14/92 - 9/28/92.* Readmitted to Charter Hospital.* While in Oregon, Damien made a plan to “slash my parents’ throats and eat them alive.” Damien believes that he is a vampire and does worship the devil. Has made several statements indicating that he has a desire to harm others.* He admitted to sucking the blood out of a peer’s neck. (87, 374, 375).

Stated he had attempted suicide before and “wasn’t worried about trying again, because I know I can come back.” (377)

Discharged 9/28/92. Aftercare to be arranged by T. Deaton, Dr. Gallien/M. Wilson.
Diagnosis: 1. Psychotic Disorder NOS and 2. Dysthymia. (344, 439).

1/5/93.* Mental Health Center reopens case:* Reports self-mutilation, cutting self with knives.* Will “trance out” since 5th grade - doesn’t have to deal with what’s going on.* Says he thinks a lot about life after death-- “I want to go where the monsters go.” (41, 42).

He has tried to steal energy from someone else and influence others’ minds with witchcraft.* Describes self as “pretty much hates the human race.”* Relates that he feels people are in two classes--sheep and wolves (wolves eat the sheep). (42).

1/19/93:* Reveals history of abuse as he talked of how he was treated as a child.* States, “I just put it all inside.”* Describes this as more than just anger - like rage.* Sometimes he does “blow up.”* Relates that when this happens, the only solution is to “hurt someone.”* When questioned on his feelings he states, “I know I’m going to influence the world.* People will remember me.” (50).

1/25/93:* Speaks of rituals, drinking blood, more involved in demonology.* Damien explained that he obtains his power by drinking blood of others.* He typically drinks the blood of a sexual partner or of a ruling partner.* This is achieved by biting or cutting.* He states, “It makes me feel like a god.” He wants very much to be all powerful. He wants very much to be in total control. (52)

Damien relates that a spirit is now living with him. This is reportedly a spirit of a woman who was killed by her husband.* In addition, he also reports conversations with demons and other spirits.* This is achieved through rituals. (52)

2/5/93:* Damien is noted to have cuts on his right arm and hand.* Related feeling very angry yesterday*when running into previous girlfriend.* “I controlled it - I can do anything. “ (54)

The Social Security Administration determined that Echols was 100% disabled due to mental impairment and granted him full disability benefits. (http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/gwoods.html 8.b)

5/5/93 A.M:* At times he is impulsive and does things that may be harmful to him.* He has impulses to do strange and harmful things. (61 and http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/ebtrial/jmoneypenny.html)

5/5/93 P.M.:* Christopher Byers, Stevie Branch, and Michael Moore are murdered.* * * * *
 
:seeya: Mrs. G.

Sorry but I don't see what I'm supposed to get out of this?

Just that his mental health issues were genuine and involved, and probably required ongoing treatment while on death row .. still trying to find any reference to that if there was any during his incarceration :)
 
Just that his mental health issues were genuine and involved, and probably required ongoing treatment while on death row .. still trying to find any reference to that if there was any during his incarceration :)

Well, in that case, barring the discovery of some new physical evidence, one could conclude that the police and prosecutor took advantage of a mentally ill individual who was perhaps not competent to stand trial.
 
So, again, why some people continue to point to Exhibit 500 with the "OMG! This guy is crazy! He could've totally done this!" I simply don't understand.
Do you understand the fact that nobody is doing that here?

Here is the song he was quoting.
Clearly not, as that song came out in 1994 while the writing in the notebook obviously predates Echols' arrest the previous year. Rather, it seems that band Hades had seen the same spell Echols copied into his journal and took inspiration for their lyrics from that.

Except the end was from the Bible!
What book, chapter, and verse are you referring to specifically here?
 
Well, more strange than a sociopath being a pathological liar.

I guess the real point is that either one is possible, right? So that leaves us to turn to the evidence as a guide.
 
Yes, considering the available evidence is always best. In regard to evidence of Echols lying, I recommend starting with the important issue of his claims of having an alibi, addressed on this page under the heading "Damien Echols Failed Alibis".
 
IIRC, it was one of Jason's cousins who made the claim. As you pointed out, if it had "legs," they would have added "animal cruelty" to Damien's charges or done something to address it. Great Danes are expensive! IMO, the story was an attempt on Jason's cousin's part at his fifteen minutes.

In Arkansas, unless the owner of the dog filed charges, it would not be followed up. Maybe in another state and maybe it would be now but not back in the 90s. Animals are/were considered property. My understanding was this was a sick dog. In that part of town, most likely a stray or the owner may have thought it went off and died. IMO
 

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