Viable suspect: Damien Echols

[Compassionate Reader]

Pensfan put up a post a couple of months ago about a pin-rolling tremor he noticed in Damien during recent interviews, this is associated with anti-psychotic medication, do it is possible he has been on psyche meds during prison and afterwards, so he might not have snapped out of anything.

Off to see if I can find it.

IIRC, it was one of his interviews right after his release, when he was still trying to adjust to crowds, etc. I doubt that such behavior would be evident in interviews now. And I agree with Cappuccino. Some people want to believe that Damien's mental disorders, if they still exist, can be diagnosed from a You-Tube clip, but seven certified forensic pathologists, odontologists, etc. are wrong about the animal predation. Talk about cherry-picking!

 

[kyleb]

seven board certified forensic pathologists who examined autopsy reports, photographs, tissue samples and bench notes and independently conclude that wounds were caused by animal predation, are all to be dismissed because they weren't physically present at the autopsy.

No, if any ever attempts to substantiate the assertions of animal predation by presenting examples of known of such which are consistent with the wounds on the boys, their arguments deserve consideration regardless of whether they were present at the autopsy or otherwise. In much the same regard, the evidence [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7494860&postcount=58"]Pensfan has presented[/ame] deserves consideration, as includes both a known example of Tardive dyskinesia symptoms and videos of Echols engaging in comparable behavior.

So, it still an unsubstantiated rumour in my books.

It's a witness statement of the act and witness report of a confession in reality, regardless of if one considers them credible or otherwise. In that same regard, the recent affidavits are witness reports of Lucas and Hollingsworth confessing, and only hearsay against Hobbs and Jacoby, regardless of the fact that they came forward long after events they report witnessing.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

IIRC, it was one of his interviews right after his release, when he was still trying to adjust to crowds, etc. I doubt that such behavior would be evident in interviews now. And I agree with Cappuccino. Some people want to believe that Damien's mental disorders, if they still exist, can be diagnosed from a You-Tube clip, but seven certified forensic pathologists, odontologists, etc. are wrong about the animal predation. Talk about cherry-picking!

I think the discussion was that he had mental issues as a teen, and these wouldn't just go away overnight, so we were asking if he had treatment while on death row, so I used the observations made my Pensfan to suggest (with hope) that he did. It would be a lot crueller to assume that he didn't receive any treatment in prison, since he clearly needed some, and would be a lot worse now if he hadn't. Some posters wished to dismiss all his mental health history entirely, I believe it's much more reasonable to accept it, and also accept that he has received treatment.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I think the discussion was that he had mental issues as a teen, and these wouldn't just go away overnight, so we were asking if he had treatment while on death row, so I used the observations made my Pensfan to suggest (with hope) that he did. It would be a lot crueller to assume that he didn't receive any treatment in prison, since he clearly needed some, and would be a lot worse now if he hadn't. Some posters wished to dismiss all his mental health history entirely, I believe it's much more reasonable to accept it, and also accept that he has received treatment.

As I stated earlier, I suspect that he was bipolar as a teen and received incorrect medication for the condition, contributing to some of his bizarre behavior. Although many people today are bipolar and receive medication for the condition, many bipolar patients go undiagnosed and are able to cope and lead full lives without the medication.

Damien himself stated in his book, Almost Home, that he received the anti-depressive medication (Immitrex?) during his incarceration prior to and during his trial but had to go "cold turkey" off of it when he got to Death Row. He went on the say that it was really a good thing in the end as the medication wasn't doing what it should and instead was making him sleepy and made it hard for him to follow the proceedings during the trial, for example.

 

[reedus23]

No, if any ever attempts to substantiate the assertions of animal predation by presenting examples of known of such which are consistent with the wounds on the boys, their arguments deserve consideration regardless of whether they were present at the autopsy or otherwise. In much the same regard, the evidence Pensfan has presented deserves consideration, as includes both a known example of Tardive dyskinesia symptoms and videos of Echols engaging in comparable behavior.


It's a witness statement of the act and witness report of a confession in reality, regardless of if one considers them credible or otherwise. In that same regard, the recent affidavits are witness reports of Lucas and Hollingsworth confessing, and only hearsay against Hobbs and Jacoby, regardless of the fact that they came forward long after events they report witnessing.

I tend to take it that some of the foremost experts on the topic know something or two about animal predation. If they didn't believe it were the case, they would not have put their reputation on the line but would have politely declined to assist.

Regarding Pensfan, I'd have to go back and see the post, but I would imagine even Pensfan would admit he/she is not making a diagnosis from a youtube video and would defer to those who have treated and seen Damien and/or his records. I would imagine, rather than giving an actual diagnosis, he/she was simply relating an observation they had and that it could be consistent with a condition but not stating it as fact that he has such a condition.

As to your next point, I don't think everyone has to speak in legalese at all times. Rumor isn't a legal term but it in essence means a statement that you find lacks any credibility or support. Not sure of the need to parse words.

Though I'm not completely familiar with Arkansas law, assuming those witnesses would be willing to testify, the statements concerning Hobbs and Jacoby might be admissible as exceptions to the hearsay rule.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Bringing over Pensfan's original post:

It only took Damien Echol's rods in his retina 1-5 minutes to adjust to the sunlight once released from prison. He was not kept in a pitch black dungeon.

Damien Echols has not been thrusted in front of cameras. Damien Echols voluntarily steps in front of cameras.

Tardive dyskinesia symptoms are side effects of antipsychotic medications. They have been studied for HALF A CENTURY. They are not nervous ticks which will resolve with the discontinuance of cameras.

See example of a severe pill-rolling tremor here:
Tremor - YouTube

See Damien Echols pill-rolling with his right hand’s index finger and thumb at 14 seconds, 54 seconds, 106 seconds, 145 seconds. Notice the peculiar positioning of his right hand during all of the interview. Like many other psychiatric patients that feel self-conscious about their tardive dyskinesia pill-rolling tremor, Damien positions his right hand when at rest in a peculiar position in an attempt to prevent his TD tremor from being occurring (keeps thumb and forefinger apart) and being extremely obvious.
Damien Echols on conditions in jail - YouTube




See Damien Echols pill-rolling tardive dyskinesia symptom again here at 2:12 while his right hand is at rest on the table. Notice the peculiar positioning of his right hand during most of the interview and all of his other interviews. Damien positions his right hand in such a peculiar position when it is at rest in an attempt to prevent his pill-rolling tremor from occurring. He must keeping his thumb and index finger apart while his hand is at rest or his fingers will pill roll. TD tremors do not always manifest equally bilaterally, but may appear more significantly on one side than the opposite side. I can’t see Damien’s left hand in the videos so it is unknown if his left hand is also pill rolling.
Jason Baldwin on celebrity support behind the West Memphis 3 - YouTube


Pensfan
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

 

[EntreNous]

He was clearly way out in the deep end when he wrote his letters to Glori Shettles. Some notable excerpts:

actually, no he wasn't if you are basing it on these letters/notes you have provided a link to above. those are mostly all song lyrics that were playing in bedrooms and radio stations all across America at that time. some of it is required school reading for high school and some are lines from Stephen King's vast and top selling library of work. i can see how someone would be mistaken if they are not well versed in the famous literature and song lyrics DE was quoting. also, it is very common place for lawyers and investigators to have their clients take daily notes. to keep a diary per se. impact reports or statements. it can sometimes be a great help, but in this case the community was so completely out of touch with current pop culture, it was truly a lost cause from the beginning.

i see that you took the liberty to take some of those notes out of context and group them inappropriately. that will only lead to confusion. although i'm sure that was not your goal.


at any rate, if you'd be so kind as to bear with me I will address them. my husband, at age 18, was involved in a bad accident at a KISS concert when he was pushed through a plate glass window by a crowd of people trying to get in the auditorium. he was injured badly and the girl with him ultimately died from a blood clot as a result from her injuries. for the case, his lawyer had him keep a daily diary. we still have it and it's pretty hilarious in parts because he didn't know what to say half the time, we actually call it, "Diary of a Mad Man". he was heavily into Edgar Allen Poe, Lord Of The Rings, Ozzy Osborne, Black Sabbath, AC/DC, Rush, Van Halen, Iron Maiden, etc. at the time. when he ran out of things to write about he'd write lyrics or excerpts from literature.

anyway, this should perhaps give you some clarity on what much of DE's "letters" to GS mean. Warning: Some content not intended for children (explicit lyrics)

page 2
reference- "look into my eyes, tell me what you see. amplified starlight and pure energy..." = song by D.R.I. titled I.D.K.Y. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19F3Bf3Afp0"]D.R.I. - IDKY - YouTube[/ame]

reference- "you cannot reach me now, no matter how you try..." = song by Pink Floyd titled "Waiting For The Worms" [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bDY0DfEjmo"]Pink Floyd - Waiting for the Worms - YouTube[/ame]

repeated reference- "i lose, you win, but you're on my five year plan..." references = song by D.R.I. titled "Five Year Plan" [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oykS4zusNA"]DRI - Five Year Plan - YouTube[/ame]

page 3
reference- "on a cold October morning, as frost lay on the ground, waiting to make my move, i make no sound..." = song by Iron Maiden titled The Fugitive [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLVEZMYg7aI"]Iron Maiden - The Fugitive (With Lyrics) - YouTube[/ame]

reference- "the time has come to wield the blade. to lay waste at your heels..." = song by Metallica titled "The Four Horsemen" [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AhqeQifPSs"]Metallica - The Four Horsemen - Lyrics - YouTube[/ame]

page 4
reference- "welcome to my world involve yourself within my dream..." = song by Slayer titled "Spirit In Black" [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkc83QNq8SI"]Slayer- Spirit In Black with lyrics - YouTube[/ame]

page 5
"Mother Night wrap your dark arms around me. Protect me. Lord of Chaos, guide me. Father Death, embrace me. I am the half man who dwells in both worlds. I walk in shadow and light and am cursed by both." Damien Echols
this is quite heartbreaking to me. while Mother Night and Lord of Chaos are popular comic books, i truly believe Damien felt like he was on the edge of a precipice. i would have to ask anyone if they would not also feel this way and use the metaphors that were most familiar to them in order to express that immeasurable fear. jmho.

page 6
what DE keeps describing over and over again occur upon entering, during or upon waking sleep is commonly referred to as Sleep Paralysis. it's a condition that's fairly common and almost always involves someone in the room or in the bed with you. these experiences are extremely vivid and you will swear it really happened. i have them because i have sleep disorders. i can't speak for others but mine are never positive and always involve some old hag trying to drag me off to hell. DE called his Rosey. As a child I called mine The Bell Witch. there are a variety of reasons for this phenomena including sleep deprivation, and stress. here's a link for the info...
http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/features/sleep-paralysis-demon-in-the-bedroom

pages 7, 8, 9
self description of childhood showing no violent tendencies toward self or others. same Sleep Paralysis type event on pgs. 8 & 9? imo, most likely as his description is textbook accurate, he even goes on to say he felt paralyzed.

page 11
angst filled, expressive self-mythologizing. description by DE from his point of view: they're making him out to the be the devil but he will show them. he will go quietly and let them destroy him but will rise in another life as a supreme ruler and then they'll be sorry. another common human fantasy, especially from the young. the younger the individual is, the simpler the revenge they dream up, but it always fits the same pattern. a classic example is Ralphie in "A Christmas Story". He envisions himself shooting bandits and later becoming blind from the punishment administered, (soap in the mouth), as a result of saying a dirty word, then raking in on the cash and remorse of his adversaries. jmo

pages 12 & 13
repeated reference- "unmask, unmask...and the red death held sway over all." is taken from "Mask Of The Red Death" by Edgar Allen Poe. immediately followed by:
reference- "they'll take it and they'll like it, the stupid little sh**s or they'll have their brains bashed the * out..." excerpt The Shining written by Stephen King

page 14, 15 & 16
more song lyrics.
tons of Stephen King references.
synopsis of the New Testament- Matthew

page 18
bottom third reference- Dangerous Tonight by Alice Cooper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w018Pe008Mk

page 19
middle section reference- The Only Time by Nine Inch Nails
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XniFfkHKGA

page 20
top 1/3 of page reference- I Just Want You by Ozzy Osborne
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDb8OPUS7LM"]Ozzy Osbourne - I Just Want You [Lyrics] - YouTube[/ame]

middle section- Nona by Stephen King
bottom 1/3- more self-comforting fantasy talk

page 21
top 1/3 reference- My World by Guns N' Roses [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs6y08Tbnpw"]Guns N' Roses - My World - Lyrics - YouTube[/ame]

mid sections reference- Sunday Bloody Sunday by U2
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQZLPV6xcHI"]Sunday Bloody Sunday - U2 (with lyrics) - YouTube[/ame]

page 22
repeated reference- Do you love?- Nona by Stephen King
Do you love? Yes I love and true love will never die.- Nona by Stephen King


so far as i can see, the vast bulk of these letters were not much more than DE copying famous poetry, movie lines, book excerpts and song lyrics. it seems to go along with what a lot of boys were reading, watching and listening to back then. even his personal writing which is pretty sparse given there is 22 pages, is peppered with copied lines of songs, books, movies, etc. :rockon: rock on, kyleb!

 

[EntreNous]

i'm not sure why some of these imbedded. my apologies, it was unintentional.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

As I said before, the interview linked above was done about six weeks after release. IMO, Damien is nervous because he is still adjusting to being with a lot of people. Jason was not isolated as Damien was. Therefore, his adjustment to crowds was easier. Damien, being isolated as he was, had a harder time. Hence the possible nervous gestures. As to the eyes, he never claimed it was that any light hurt his eyes, although that was part of it as he was not used to natural light. His claim was that, because he never had to look at something more than a few feet away, he was losing the ability to do so. Hence, the dark glasses. Personally, I think he has made a remarkable adjustment. Although I don't agree with everything he has done since release, I am still amazed that he can lead as normal a life as he is.

I'm not going to argue with a "verified psychiatric mental health nurse" about a medical condition, but I'd like to point out that the tremor in the first posted video appears to me to be an involuntary action, as the name "tremor" implies. When I look at Damien's actions in those other two clips, they appear to me to be voluntary actions, not "tremors" at all! Yes, he talks a lot with his hands, as do many creative people. Yes, he occasionally rubs his thumb and forefinger together. IMO, this appears to be a personal idiosyncrasy or perhaps a habit, but definitely not a tremor. I'm sure if I researched I could find an example of someone who no one would believe to be on anti psychotic medication doing the same thing! I just looked down at my hands, and I was rubbing my thumb and forefinger together - and I assure you that I'm not and never have been on anti psychotics! So, I believe that Damien's actions could have another explanation, other than tardive dyskinesia, but that's MOO!

 

[kyleb]

so far as i can see, the vast bulk of these letters were not much more than DE copying famous poetry, movie lines, book excerpts and song lyrics. it seems to go along with what a lot of boys were reading, watching and listening to back then.

As guy just slightly younger than Echols who largely shared much of his taste in music back then and continue to appreciate such music to this day, I'm well aware of what are song lyrics in his writings and pretty much everything else you've mentioned. The only exception is I've never read The Shining, but having seen the movie more than a few times I don't doubt the line is quote from the book. Regardless, it's not that I consider any of those quotes disturbing in their own right, but rather the way in which they're strung together along with Echols' original writing, and more so the fact that he mailed it all to Gloria Shettles, which I find indicative of a particularly disturbed at the time of writing them.

As for you Youtube links, no worries, this forum just does that if you use the full link. If you want to avoid that though, just look under the video and click on the "share" option, that will give you a short link which won't do the embed, like so (my favorite song of the bunch, which I went to sleep with blasting nearly every night until Sepultura's Arise was released and became my new preferred bedtime music).

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I meant to say this earlier, but I got sidetracked! (Senior Moment)

Thanks you, EntreNous, for pointing out that so much of Damien's "writing" was simply the quoting of song lyrics or Stephen King. I didn't mind the embeds at all. Too many people want to bring up Damien's writings as if the writings are proof that he is a murderer (or at least capable of murder) when what they're quoting isn't Damien's writings at all. Then they want to say that he wasn't convicted just because he wore black, listened to heavy metal, etc. Fogleman started that ball rolling IMO because he quoted Metallica lyrics in the trial as if they were Damien's own words! There's been way too much confusion on this point, so thanks again for pointing it out.

 

[reedus23]

so far as i can see, the vast bulk of these letters were not much more than DE copying famous poetry, movie lines, book excerpts and song lyrics. it seems to go along with what a lot of boys were reading, watching and listening to back then. even his personal writing which is pretty sparse given there is 22 pages, is peppered with copied lines of songs, books, movies, etc. :rockon: rock on, kyleb!

Wow, thanks for that. I recognized some as lyrics but not nearly all of that. Thanks for that.

 

[reedus23]

Bringing over Pensfan's original post:

Thanks for bringing that over MGN. Interesting observation. Was it ever noted in any of the medical records?

 

[EntreNous]

As guy just slightly younger than Echols who largely shared much of his taste in music back then and continue to appreciate such music to this day, I'm well aware of what are song lyrics in his writings and pretty much everything else you've mentioned. The only exception is I've never read The Shining, but having seen the movie more than a few times I don't doubt the line is quote from the book. Regardless, it's not that I consider any of those quotes disturbing in their own right, but rather the way in which their strung together along with Echols' original writing, and more so the fact that he mailed it all to Gloria Shettles, which I find indicative of a particularly disturbed at the time of writing them.

As for you Youtube links, no worries, this forum just does that if you use the full link. If you want to avoid that though, just look under the video and click on the "share" option, that will give you a short link which won't do the embed, like so (my favorite song of the bunch, which I went to sleep with blasting nearly every night until Sepultura's Arise was released and became my new preferred bedtime music).

i love stephen king and recommend you read the book. it is about as different from the movie as night and day, although i also love the movie because i'm a tremendous fan of stanley kubrick. kubrick had his own agenda and story to tell and imo only looking for a vehicle to hide behind. there are several clues in the movie which show, (almost apologetically), that he essentially dissected king's story and created a completely different animal. i see King's heavy influence overall in stuff DE wrote.

 

[reedus23]

As guy just slightly younger than Echols who largely shared much of his taste in music back then and continue to appreciate such music to this day, I'm well aware of what are song lyrics in his writings and pretty much everything else you've mentioned. The only exception is I've never read The Shining, but having seen the movie more than a few times I don't doubt the line is quote from the book. Regardless, it's not that I consider any of those quotes disturbing in their own right, but rather the way in which their strung together along with Echols' original writing, and more so the fact that he mailed it all to Gloria Shettles, which I find indicative of a particularly disturbed at the time of writing them.

As for you Youtube links, no worries, this forum just does that if you use the full link. If you want to avoid that though, just look under the video and click on the "share" option, that will give you a short link which won't do the embed, like so (my favorite song of the bunch, which I went to sleep with blasting nearly every night until Sepultura's Arise was released and became my new preferred bedtime music).

Does this mean we can move entrenous' post over to the common ground?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Thanks for bringing that over MGN. Interesting observation. Was it ever noted in any of the medical records?

That's what I want to know .. was he treated while awaiting trial or on DR .. Found this on a search, discussion about psychiatric treatment and the writings:

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: We are back with Damien Echols. Damien, in 2001, a psychiatrist for your defense team submitted an affidavit that essentially concluded -- I'm reading this -- "The nature and severity of your multiple psychiatric illnesses have left you unable to rationally understand the 1994 legal proceedings that convicted you or to rationally assist in your own defense."

How do you react to that, that you are not in a rational state?

ECHOLS: I think maybe -- I don't think they are saying I'm not in a rational state now. I think what they mean is that I wasn't in a rational state at the time of the trial. And I think that I would probably even agree with that, just for the fact that I was a teenage kid and I was suffering from severe trauma and shock from everything that was going on.

I had no experience with anything like that. And it came as a tremendous blow, you know, just the depression and the shock and everything that goes along with it. I would probably agree with that statement.

KING: So what your psychiatrist was saying, that the nature and severity of your multiple psychiatric illnesses made you unable to rationally understand the legal proceedings against you.

Did you have multiple psychiatric illnesses?

ECHOLS: I don't think so. I think at the time I probably suffered from what most teenagers suffer from, you know, just teenage angst, maybe depression, maybe sometimes even severe depression.

But I don't -- I think it is harder to judge something like that when you are going back in hindsight than it is whenever you are actually, you know, there at the time. You know, this would have been someone who didn't know me at the time of the trial. This would have been looking back in hindsight and trying to put everything together.

<snip>

KING: While you were in prison, awaiting trial, you wrote a number of letters containing things a lot of people would consider disturbing. Among them, you wrote to Gloria Shettles, an investigator for your defense team.

And you wrote: "Everyone will pay because everyone is too stupid to open their eyes. This is the final time and I am the new messiah. My body is changing but that medicine is making it happen a lot more slowly than normal. I am outgrowing my skin. I am eating packs of sugar and Kool-Aid to give my body extra energy it needs to make its change. Soon people will be able to know I am the Christ. I always knew I was different from other children."

How do you explain that?

ECHOLS: I don't know. I mean, like I said, that was 15 years ago. That could have been -- I'm not sure what that was. What I was talking about could have been a short story. I really don't know. You know, I write constantly, non-stop. I actually consider myself a writer. I have had several things published.

And some of it is hard to keep track of after all of these years. Even now I come across things that I read that aren't familiar to me. I will recognize my hand writing, but have no idea what it was, what context it was in, any of that.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Article about Damien post release, with particular reference to his mental history: http://www.capitalpunishmentbook.com/?p=747

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Article about Damien post release, with particular reference to his mental history: http://www.capitalpunishmentbook.com/?p=747

Billy Sinclair is hardly an objective source on this issue. Exactly what are his qualifications for determining mental illness?

 

[kyleb]

Too many people want to bring up Damien's writings as if the writings are proof that he is a murderer (or at least capable of murder) when what they're quoting isn't Damien's writings at all.

I've yet to see anyone do that, but I agree that it's an absurd argument. That said, most of what I quoted is Echols writings, and again I consider of how he used what are quotes in that and the fact that he sent them to Shettles as indicative of a very disturbed mind.

Fogleman started that ball rolling IMO because he quoted Metallica lyrics in the trial as if they were Damien's own words!

I'm pretty sure Fogleman never did that.

Was it ever noted in any of the medical records?

No, which is to be expected as Echols was only on an antidepressant at the time of his available medical records, while "Tardive dyskinesia symptoms are side effects of antipsychotic medications" as Pensfan explained.

Does this mean we can move entrenous' post over to the common ground?

Did you not see where I disagreed with the opinion portions of Entrenous' post? It's right there in what you quoted from me. Of course I don't have any issue with the facts from her post being in the common ground thread though, or any facts for that matter.

That's what I want to know .. was he treated while awaiting trial or on DR .. Found this on a search, discussion about psychiatric treatment and the writings:

I quoted the same [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9560180&postcount=25"]interview a few post back[/ame], and as I suggested there, one obviously can't expect honest answers regarding Echols psychological history from him. Between that and the fact that doctors are ethically bound from disclosing the details of their patients, there's really no way to answer your curiosity.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Paranoid Schizophrenic....

moo