Drowning in a cold, rapid river that is 2-3 feet deep is not uncommon with suicide.
It is not possible to be conscious, and to spontaneously drown in a 2-3 foot deep creek culvert.
Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #7
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Drowning in a cold, rapid river that is 2-3 feet deep is not uncommon with suicide.
It is not possible to be conscious, and to spontaneously drown in a 2-3 foot deep creek culvert.
And I suspect that if police suspect a suicide, "sensitive information" will be cited to delay release of circumstances surrounding the police theory.
I didn't say that, please re-read my post. I said if they had sensitive information that explained the suicide they would tell the family (i.e. NOT the public). But if they had sensitive information that explained suicide, the family wouldn't be saying they didn't think it was suicide. But they are.
Lyon Creek was full of toxins in 1980, and the municipality has taken measures to clean up the bacteria, and install salmon fishing.
You can search Lyon Creek Wa Trails, and find information about the water shed.
That has nothing to do with the autopsy though. And there are plenty of euphemisms we use all the time to cover family sensitive subjects without going into great detail. Eg "trouble with a relationship", "problems at work", "health concerns", "was despondent".
A lot of questions people have here (including the family) can be answered with the autopsy - especially around the drowning/asphyxiation. Probably not enough to conclude anything, but it would curb a lot of the outlying theories being presented here...
But it is the family's right, not ours.
Absolutely police would share their theory with family. At the same time, police released to media that they were dealing with "sensitive information" that required toxicology and electronic device examination for confirmation.
Toxicology and electronic device examination did not confirm that "sensitive" belief that Cheryl committed suicide. In fact, it left the only evidence in support of suicide as: plastic bag on head, 6 days in creek, fully clothed, and unknown book in car.
If police presented their suicide theory to the family, the family could very well still question that theory. Why wouldn't they given the animal blood, the claustrophobia, the day to day activity, and the bizarre theory of death by holding breath in hip deep, cold water drainage ditch?
Police don't have "sensitive information that explained suicide", the fact that they believe it is a suicide, and that she was found face down in a shallow creek with a fast-food restaurant plastic bag on her head", is sensitive. When the family revealed that "sensitive information" on a discussion forum, police released the full spectrum of the sensitive information:
http://mltnews.com/mlt-police-chief-shares-some-details-of-cheryl-deboer-investigation/
Many times there is no rhyme or reason to where and when someone does it. Sometimes we find items arranged at the scene. Sometimes people just walk out their back door. Sometimes they hike miles. Sometimes slipping into the darkness of water and losing consciousness is what they choose.
How does someone choose to jump off a cliff? (Right after they paid their rent!) Seconds of sheer terror as they fall. Yet, they do it. Saying the method is not attractive to an outdoors person isn't very directional. The "suicide brain" doesn't function like you or I would expect.
Maybe the creek itself was what she chose and it was attractive to her?
The autopsy results have not been released. The cause of death has been released.
There are no outlying theories, other than wearing a plastic bag on your head because it's raining.
So what is the sensitive information you think they have? And what does it speak to?
As I said, the family can request the full autopsy report. It would answer many of the questions here around, why they think the cuts are self inflicted, how was the bag secured, how did they conclude it as drowning, etc.
There are plenty of outlying theories here, I just don't bother replying to them.
It is. We've had people drown themselves in 8" of water. No plastic bag. No drugs.
I don't know exactly how, I'm not a Dr. But it is what the ME ruled. We had another one in 2ft of water recently.
I would call it "spontaneous" though. They may have been conscious when they entered the water, but become unconscious in the water before they drowned (Google shallow water blackout, maybe something like that?)
Do you have training in suicide locations and reasons for suicide?
Sometimes people slip into the darkness of water, and slipping into a rapid river removes the option to reconsider the decision. 2-3 foot deep river water can be deadly.
Slipping into a creek in a culvert is not the same, as there is the option to reconsider. Even if all goes wrong, apparently a body will lodge at the end of the culvert, and surely someone can suck it up for 30 seconds as they shoot through the rapid creek onto the west bank.
Cheryl did not jump off a cliff. She was found in a drainage ditch. The creek in that drainage ditch historically had very high bacteria levels. Cheryl lived near that creek and grew up in the area. Surely she knew about the water quality.
It is directional to recognize that an outdoors person who does not have long nails that will break during a suffocation would not choose a dirty drainage ditch to commit suicide.
There are many nicer locations of the creek upstream. There's no good explanation for her body to be found in the culvert.
The sensitive information that was withheld is that the police working theory from the time they discovered the body is suicide. That "sensitive" information (per media) was withheld from the public pending toxicology and computer search. Toxicology yielded no information, computer search yielded nothing, and blood tests were inconclusive. That pokes a hole in the working theory.
As I said, the family can request the full autopsy report. It would answer many of the questions here around, why they think the cuts are self inflicted, how was the bag secured, how did they conclude it as drowning, etc.
There are plenty of outlying theories here, I just don't bother replying to them.
We know that the autopsy report can be released to the family.
I see no outlying theories (other than the rain error). There's suicide versus murder, and various questions or explanations associated with each theory.
No, I have observed many outdoor death scenes, many of them suicides.
I sometimes get to hear the conclusions of the reasons, but I know enough to know I don't know much about why people kill themselves, but that most times when I hear it, I think it doesn't make much sense, except for the terminally ill people.
The shallow water suicides I have seen were STILL WATER. Plenty of chances to change your mind. You are working on the assumption that people will fight for a breath. Which is normal, you or I would do it. I agree.
If you're killing yourself, E Coli is not a primary consideration.
Do you have training to know the reasons why people would not choose a certain location or method for suicides? I've seen people who stabbed themselves, drunk window cleaner, shot themselves. In dirty swamps. In ditches. In blackberries. You think those methods or locations are attractive?
You're trying to apply logic to it, my experience tells my logic doesn't apply, at least the kind you or I know. I am sure it all makes sense to the decedents.
I'm not convinced she didn't enter the creek upstream and the body was pushed past the bushes on the east side of the culvert but failed to negotiate the turn to the south exit of the 2nd culvert. If I had time I'd go take a look, but unfortunately I'm busy on a case. (Not a suicide)
I guess you have already forgotten the "12:30" posts. I think that's an outlier.
The ME would probably say they always do as complete an autopsy as necessary.
I will try and ask one of the ME Dr's if I see them (about drownings vs asphyxiation etc generally) - no promises.
A working theory isn't sensitive information, it is a working theory. They'll tell the family and if they're right, it will get released eventually by the ME.
When they say "there is no danger to the public" that means "we think it is suicide". (We say that a lot to looky-loos "there's nothing to be concerned about")
I guarantee there is other information they are withholding. But what I do not know.
We're asking a lot from Cheryl in order to believe this was suicide. We have to believe that she was mentally ill, that she plotted to conceal her intent to commit suicide by pouring animal blood in her car and planting blood (cuts to fingers), that she avoided being seen for 1.5 miles during rush hour, that she chose a polluted creek, and especially a dark culvert, to breath her last breath and see her last memory.
It's not logical, but she was an analyst - who is by nature: logical.
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