Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #7

[margarita25]

It's very likely that Cheryl went into the culvert on the East side, especially given that she was found in the culvert. Water is known to destroy evidence, so a creek culvert is an ideal location to hide a body and destroy evidence.

Jessica Ridgeway was found in a culvert. The convicted murderer was 17 years old at the time, did not know Jessica, and chose her randomly. He was fascinated with forensic techniques.

Yes, he was also in Mortitian school, iirc. Knew about bodies.

 

[margarita25]

In that case, are you thinking LE has a suspect in mind and are misleading the public (misleading might be too strong a word) in order to keep the suspect in the dark so they can gather more evidence? I can't reconcile a homicide scenario unless it was very personal.

Yep. Pretty much, jmo.

If they didn't have any leads, and if suspecting murder, they would have reached out to the public for leads, and warned them as a community. Any LE Dept nowadays knows about the benefits of SM. They just want their cases solved.

Again, speculation.

 

[eucalyptuz]

First, I would be surprised if there were any fingerprints on the razor blade if it was submerged in water for 6 days. Second, prints on the razor blade would mean that the blade belonged to Cheryl. There's is a leap from Cheryl touching a razor blade, and cuts to Cheryl's fingers being self-inflicted, or a step in the process of committing suicide.

Using fingers to break a plastic bag can leave a narrow cut on fingers as well.

I linked above (a week ago -ish) to a study showing that fingerprints can be retrieved from metal surfaces up to 70 days after immersion. In, the same post or just above it I mentioned that the orientation of the fingerprints on the blade could be used to determine how the blade was used (ie. cutting v's scraping a surface, amount of pressure etc).

I admit that seven days in water will make a lot of trace disappear and perhaps the small wounds on the fingers can not be microscopically matched to the specific blade found in the pocket and perhaps there are no fingerprints...but the police/ME must have something other than their theory to determine "self-inflicted". I really do not believe they would have used that term without reason, unless of course, they we really, really trying to avoid the press drawing their own conclusions about the nature of the cuts and the possibility of them being "self-defense injuries". And why would they do that unless they had a reason to know that they were not self-defense wounds and that yes, this was a suicide...

ETA: Still on the fence (with good company though) and just playing devil's advocate above.

 

[Sun009]

I'm sure someone at some point, has arranged their suicide, by hiring/not hiring, a "hitman" to come "murder" them. In that case, you'd still be looking for a killer.

 

[Yvettea]

I'm sure someone at some point, has arranged their suicide, by hiring/not hiring, a "hitman" to come "murder" them. In that case, you'd still be looking for a killer.

You'd be more likely to lose your money that way than your life. There's no way to file a complaint for non-performance.

 

[margarita25]

I'm sure someone at some point, has arranged their suicide, by hiring/not hiring, a "hitman" to come "murder" them. In that case, you'd still be looking for a killer.

I'm down for all theories. Not sure she'd pick the bag in a culvert as her way out though. Unless she wanted it to appear it was the work of a brutal killer, which even then, some people now think suicide...my brain hurts.

 

[otto]

I linked above (a week ago -ish) to a study showing that fingerprints can be retrieved from metal surfaces up to 70 days after immersion. In, the same post or just above it I mentioned that the orientation of the fingerprints on the blade could be used to determine how the blade was used (ie. cutting v's scraping a surface, amount of pressure etc).

I admit that seven days in water will make a lot of trace disappear and perhaps the small wounds on the fingers can not be microscopically matched to the specific blade found in the pocket and perhaps there are no fingerprints...but the police/ME must have something other than their theory to determine "self-inflicted". I really do not believe they would have used that term without reason, unless of course, they we really, really trying to avoid the press drawing their own conclusions about the nature of the cuts and the possibility of them being "self-defense injuries". And why would they do that unless they had a reason to know that they were not self-defense wounds and that yes, this was a suicide...

ETA: Still on the fence (with good company though) and just playing devil's advocate above.

Thank you. I'm thinking about a body in water wearing a coat with something light (razor blade) in a coat pocket. The creek water is cold, and moving. I suppose what I'm envisioning is the razor blade potentially being moved, and rubbed on fabric, due to the water current. At the same time, it's possible that it was firmly lodged and Cheryl's fingerprints are on the blade in a position that supports the belief that the blade was used to cut a finger. Similarly, using the razor blade for anything should result in fingerprints in the same location/direction.

It's been suggested that people who commit suicide will sometimes try a different method before selecting one that works. I don't understand how cutting a finger on each hand would be interpreted as an abandoned suicide method.

 

[OC Sunshine]

I think any type of chronic condition that leads to extended pain or discomfort or lack of mobility could push some people towards suicide.

Menopause alone is no walk in the park!!!

 

[Sun009]

First, I would be surprised if there were any fingerprints on the razor blade if it was submerged in water for 6 days. Second, prints on the razor blade would mean that the blade belonged to Cheryl. There's is a leap from Cheryl touching a razor blade, and cuts to Cheryl's fingers being self-inflicted, or a step in the process of committing suicide.

Using fingers to break a plastic bag can leave a narrow cut on fingers as well.

I don't know how everyone here is envisioning this plastic bag to look like, but I can see finger tips being used to desperately loosen a knot between the seems, or finger tips being used to stretch out parts of handle to secure around your neck, and I can see the razor blade as being there as a person's escape method, if they decided they wanted to back out.

Not all plastic bags are the same. So I'd want to see what this bag is.

 

[Treelights]

This is true. My back hurts every day. I've thought about it.

Hugs!!!!

 

[margarita25]

Hugs!!!!

Get the violins out.:violin: thank you. I'm still here. But I do empathize with anyone who is suicidal. However, there are so many beautiful blessings out there too.

 

[Yvettea]

I don't know how everyone here is envisioning this plastic bag to look like, but I can see finger tips being used to desperately loosen a knot between the seems, or finger tips being used to stretch out parts of handle to secure around your neck, and I can see the razor blade as being there as a person's escape method, if they decided they wanted to back out.

Not all plastic bags are the same. So I'd want to see what this bag is.

Stryker said the bag was flimsy enough to tear easily. Maybe I can find the comment.

ETA: Here's the comment #802 from thread #5: As thin as the material of the plastic bag was it wouldn't matter if it was secured around the neck. It would take little effort to rip open the bag.

 

[brandi]

I don't know how everyone here is envisioning this plastic bag to look like, but I can see finger tips being used to desperately loosen a knot between the seems, or finger tips being used to stretch out parts of handle to secure around your neck, and I can see the razor blade as being there as a person's escape method, if they decided they wanted to back out.

Not all plastic bags are the same. So I'd want to see what this bag is.

BBM--Stryker57 did say the bag was a thin, easy to rip style...

 

[Lilibet]

They have other ways of determining whether a cut is self inflicted... angle, for one.

Article on forensic markers of different types of cuts (homicidal, self-inflicted, accidental )

http://m.forensicmed.webnode.com/wounds/sharp-force-trauma/patterns-of-sharp-force-trauma/

And another. ..

http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sciences/self-inflicted-injury/

In many suicide attempts the individual abandons the method of cutting the wrists and/or throat after a few trial incisions and turns to another kind of self-destruction which is expected to be more effective.

BBM

Thank you for the interesting links.

If there were cuts on her wrists and/or throat I could accept the abandoned suicide attempt idea. But who makes trial suicide cuts to their thumbs/fingers? Maybe Cheryl did, but it seems so odd. Why do a trial run in her car? Would she think to herself "Oh that hurt! I guess I'll go find a culvert to drown in"?

Since her blood is in the car, I think the cuts were for a different reason and an accident. Thinking about other options, the fact that there are no other wounds on her body would rule out defensive wounds IMO. I can't imagine a simple razor being used briefly just to gain control over her. As usual, I am fairly sure what DOESN'T make sense.

ETA: I see you made the same point about the trial suicide cuts on fingers not making sense, Otto.

 

[margarita25]

Hugs!!!!

(Treelights, O/T, speaking of life and death, and blessings, you live in Colorado Springs. Hope you saw my thread here. This little guy in Co Springs has just a few weeks to live, he's 5, has brain cancer, his birthday is on Tuesday. I've posted the address for anyone who wants to send him a birthday card, his family has requested it. Thanks and sorry for the o/t: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...le-boy-with-cancer-who-has-just-weeks-to-live )

 

[Sun009]

Stryker said the bag was flimsy enough to tear easily. Maybe I can find the comment.

There is so many types of plastic bags. Like B&N, strong that can carry books, or grocery store "strong" where it can't hold a 2 liter sometimes, and falls out. Some are very hard to break apart. But then that also depends on what was used to secure it. And I can't figure any of it, if that information isn't shared.

 

[Sun009]

Stryker said the bag was flimsy enough to tear easily. Maybe I can find the comment.

ETA: Here's the comment #802 from thread #5: As thin as the material of the plastic bag was it wouldn't matter if it was secured around the neck. It would take little effort to rip open the bag.

Interesting.......

 

[Sun009]

You'd be more likely to lose your money that way than your life. There's no way to file a complaint for non-performance.

Yeah, really. I'm not saying this is the case here. But it also could have been arranged by someone else. I know I've heard at least one csse, where a person hired someone to shoot them. And they did.

 

[Sun009]

BBM--Stryker57 did say the bag was a thin, easy to rip style...

Then what the heck was used to secure it? This mysterious possible zip tie? Either way, I can see the razor blade as being there for an escape method, if they needed to cut a zip tie perhaps.

With no drugs, and the fact that gases can't be detected...I don't know how it's so easy to stick a flimsy bag on your head.

 

[Treelights]

(Treelights, O/T, speaking of life and death, and blessings, you live in Colorado Springs. Hope you saw my thread here. This little guy in Co Springs has just a few weeks to live, he's 5, has brain cancer, his birthday is on Tuesday. I've posted the address for anyone who wants to send him a birthday card, his family has requested it. Thanks and sorry for the o/t: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...le-boy-with-cancer-who-has-just-weeks-to-live )

I just popped on over to that thread, thank you!!!