WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

[TallCoolOne]

My newest blog is up. I was inspired by TallCoolOne, so he gets the credit AND he gets the blame.

Sluggo

Hmmmmm....... not sure I'm liken' the sound of that......... heh, heh.........

oh, not a biggie, but FYI :blushing: he's a she.................

 

[Sluggo]

TallCoolOne,

Well…. I guess that’ll teach me to look at profiles when I go to a new forum.

I guess that shows that there is still a small remnant of sexist bias in my “Culture Goggles” (reference to my 5/15/08 blog).

Sluggo

 

[Niner]

Thanks Sluggo - I'm going to check out your web site this weekend - so thanks for the link!

 

[georger]

Thank you! :blushing: I'm having fun with it. Since I'm not a "computer geek" (actually I'm a D B Cooper geek), it takes me a while to figure out how to do what I want to with the pages.

I work very hard to try to sort fact from fiction or myth, if anyone out there sees anything that they feel can't be supported, e-mail me and talk with me about it. I really welcome everyone's help.

You may have noticed I put the Transcript and other important files up today. That was prompted by your suggestion.

Thanks again,

Sluggo

Well Im no comuter wizard. You would think a guy with my background would be - I have sons who are (bigtime). I guess guys like us get done what needs to be done and we probably do better than we think.

Wouldnt it be nice if we had a transcript of Northwest Airlines to 305 comms! I am sure the FBI has that. Itis pretty obvious that any time something crucial happened Scott was on the phone to "the company".

I also tried to find out where the Seattle PI got their transcript. I never
could get them to reply. Maybe you know? I have heard it was leaked?
Leaked from where?

In any event your wbesite pulls everything together in a very admirable
form, and Im sure everyone has priase for this.

Later ... and thanks.
Jerry

 

[georger]

It is my understanding, the cigarette butts were sent out to a lab in Quantico, VA and are now misplaced (not lost, mind you, misplaced).


Here is Larry Carr’s statement Re: the butts:

"The cigarette butts were never in the Seattle office, they were recovered by the Las Vegas office and sent to Quantico for analysis. After processing they were returned to Las Vegas for storage. So the butts told their story back at the lab, they gave all they could give and could give no more. It's not like they were lost and never processed.

They may still be in Las Vegas for all I know, I can't find the paper work that state the items were disposed of, nor can I find the butts. Alas, another mystery to the mysteries."

The plastic cup the (one) Bourbon and Soda was served in was taken as evidence, it had been wiped and no prints were found.

Does it strike anyone odd that someone so meticulous would leave a tie and tie-clasp behind by accident? Or is it just me?

Well, it was another long post, you guys (websleuths) bring out the best in me.

As I said before, I welcome all inquires, comments, criticisms, and complements.

Sluggo[/quote]


Quantico is an amazing place. Quantico has deep technical resources and
access to outside people with equally deep and rich scientific resources. Quantico is only limited by its imagination, by time constraints, and by the state of science at any given point in time. I wish, the FBI would release whatever dna results they have right now because if nothing else that would spur discussion in the scientific community which could lead to new productive areas of analysis. Quantico needs outside resources and the only way to get that is to release information which can spur outside discussion. That is very vital.

Its an easy thing to say when you arent personally charged with doing
the analysis, but I have aways wondered if something more could have
been done in analysing the money, to try and trace its path. I am aware
that some kind of hydrological analysis was done, trying to establish a timeline for when the money could have shown up at Tena Bar. (or Tina Bar as the sign now reads). I think a few more tests could have been conducted. That's just my personal opinion shooting from the hip. But
money (and nothing else) travels without picking up traces of its trip.

These are the kinds of concerns a person like me has. Thirtyseven more years and the Cooper case will need an archaeologist!

Jerry

 

[Sluggo]

Well Im no comuter wizard. You would think a guy with my background would be - I have sons who are (bigtime). I guess guys like us get done what needs to be done and we probably do better than we think.

Wouldnt it be nice if we had a transcript of Northwest Airlines to 305 comms! I am sure the FBI has that. Itis pretty obvious that any time something crucial happened Scott was on the phone to "the company".

I also tried to find out where the Seattle PI got their transcript. I never
could get them to reply. Maybe you know? I have heard it was leaked?
Leaked from where?

In any event your wbesite pulls everything together in a very admirable
form, and Im sure everyone has priase for this.

Later ... and thanks.
Jerry

jwarner,

No leak, the Seattle PI got the transcripts from the FBI (Larry Carr) when Carr got permission from headquarters to show the tie to TV and print media. I think it’s part of the plan (Carr’s) to release information that has previously been kept away from the public (for good reason, but don’t get me started on that).

I have decided to make some FOIA request. My experience with FOIA request (from being the possessor, not the requestor) tells me that if I want to get anything meaningful, I have to make a FOIA request that is very specific. I am going to try to get some stuff like the communication between Bill Scott and “the company.” That information may belong to NWA and therefore isn’t covered by the FOI Act.

I have posted some more issues on the "Facts vs. Myths" page on my web site in the unclassified section. Anybody got any background (confirmation) on them?

Also, a little clarification about Union Pilot’s jargon. There has been some confusion about the term “the company”. Pilots and employees of an airline are either “line” (bargaining unit) or “the Company” (management). So, talking to “the company” just means talking to NWA management. I have sensed that some are confusing that term with the way NSA and CIA are sometimes referenced as “the Company.”

Sluggo

 

[Niner]

snip...
Does it strike anyone odd that someone so meticulous would leave a tie and tie-clasp behind by accident? Or is it just me?

so no DNA on the tie?? I thought they (FBI) was going to test the tie for any DNA? Did they do that or not - yet?? Anyone know? Just curious!~

 

[Sluggo]

so no DNA on the tie?? I thought they (FBI) was going to test the tie for any DNA? Did they do that or not - yet?? Anyone know? Just curious!~

Niner,

They tested the tie and found partial sequences (incomplete) of four individuals. It was not enough to absolutely ID anyone but enough to exclude Duane Weber (or so the FBI says).

I have some good stuff on the USAF HC-130 that was rumored to have trailed Flight 305 up on my web page today. See “Facts and Myths.”

Sluggo

 

[georger]

They tested the tie and found partial sequences (incomplete) of four individuals. It was not enough to absolutely ID anyone but enough to exclude Duane Weber (or so the FBI says).

Sluggo[/quote]

I assume Carr released this info about dna? Is it possible to get the dna
partials the FBI has?
Jerry

 

[Sluggo]

I assume Carr released this info about dna? Is it possible to get the dna partials the FBI has?

Jerry,

From Larry Carr:
"I have opened the case files to the public, no need for a FOIA, if I have it, it's yours. Simply ask."


Larry is still out-of-country right now. I don't think he realized the scope of this very broad statement. He may not be fully aware of the number of people who would like to have specific information, people who haven’t asked in the past because they were slowed down by the FOIA Request process.

I have offered to use my Web Site as a clearing house for information, so that he doesn’t get deluged by 1,000 requests for the same thing. I promised I would make all material immediately available. I don’t expect a response from him for at least two weeks.

Otherwise, I say: “Take him at his word. Ask, and ye shall be given."

UPDATE:
I got more on the HC-130 that trailed Flight 305.
“A Lockheed Hercules C-130 out of Hamilton Air Force Base, California, commanded by Captain Bruce Kennard of the 41st ARRS, was sent to intercept Flight 305. The HC-130 intercepted the B-727 around Red Bluff, CA, at which time they turned out their lights and followed at 12,000 ft MSL and five miles in trail (about 1000 feet above Flight 305). The Tail # of the HC-130 was 65-0983, the call sign was Air Rescue 50983. An excerpt from History 39th Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Wing and a photo of HC-130 65-0983 can be found in the “Photo Evidence Page.”

Sluggo

 

[georger]

:waitasec: "FAA from Washington DC., from the FAA Chief Psychiatrist.
He believes the second parachute is for the stewardess to use with
him to go out, and after he leaves the plane will be blown up."

The above has always bothered me. It is the most shocking single statement in the whole transcript. It seems utterly without foundation
and a wild leap of logic on some beaurocrat-psychiatrist's part, and it appears Scott never even replied to it when this message was delivered
and the press never pursued this 'angle', after the fact.

Moreover, there is no evidence any special action was taken, so far as we know, in lieu of the Psychiatrist's ominous warning! - through the whole remainder of the flight clear to Reno, to search for a bomb, to keep track of Cooper and what he was doing in the back (with his bomb!), or the status of the bomb itself if the Psychiatrist's warning had merit, especially after people thought Cooper had bailed ...unless there is a LOT more to the story than the PI Transcript alone conveys.

Did the Psychiatrist's projection about Cooper's intentions have some basis in fact(s)?

Did they (passed on to the Psychiatrist who then makes his evaluation)
believe that Cooper was a foreign national? Swarthy olive skin and all.

Or was this FAA Psychiatrist just one more "nut case" on an already "bad
day" ?

Jerry

 

[Albert18]

Actually what the psychiatrist thought might happen makes perfect sense, it is the behavior of the flight crew that I find unbelievable.

Cooper said he had a bomb so you have to error on the side of safety and assume the bomb is real.

So why would a guy jumping out of an airplane take the bomb with him?

Why would you not keep an eye on a guy who says he has a bomb and he is on your airplane?

Why did the young and inexperienced women have to take the brunt of this crime? Were the older and more experienced flight crew glued to their seats?

 

[Sluggo]

Jwarner,

You have hit on an issue that has been bothering me for a long time. (I wonder if we sometimes communicate with the same third party).

The guy’s name is Dr. David Hubbard. I have no way on knowing what special skills this guy had or what information was given to him in DC, to allow him to come up with that statement back in 1971, but he parlayed it into a career as the recognized expert on the psychology of skyjacking.

See:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,910457,00.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/16/magazine/16HIJACKERS.html?pagewanted=print&position=

Note this:
Correction: May 8, 2005, Sunday: An article on Jan. 16, about aircraft hijackings in the 1970's, referred imprecisely to the role played by a psychiatrist, Dr. David Hubbard, in the creation of a psychological profile of potential hijackers for the F.A.A. Dr. Hubbard did develop such a profile, used by both the government and industry. But an F.A.A. task force in operation from 1969 to 1971 developed an earlier profile of potential hijackers, relying on the work of one of its members, John T. Dailey. This omission was brought to the attention of the editors shortly after the article appeared, and this correction was delayed for further research.


I imagine that there is a lot more to the story than you can glean from the Seattle PI transcripts (starting with the omitted 88 pages). For a long time now the popular press has produced story material that claims Tina Mucklow, told Cooper she was afraid that he intended to blow up the plane after he left. They always go on to say that Cooper promised her he would either disarm the bomb or take it with him when he jumped.

I have been (to this time) unsuccessful at finding any published testimony to indicate this is true. Maybe, with the FBI’s (Carr’s) willingness to release more material, the de-briefing transcripts from Reno and Seattle will give us insight into the actual interactions between Mucklow, Schaffner, and Cooper.

If you read the transcript carefully, you will notice that it was NWA’s intent to have the remaining crew “bail out” just before take-off and leave Cooper on board alone. They sent instructions from Boeing on ways to exit the aircraft (in the front) along with the charts. Cooper foiled the plan by keeping Mucklow with him. The remainder of the crew wouldn’t abandon her. [See pages 184 and 185 beginning with GC: Did you get that deal from Boeing… through … P: No we tried that.]

Sluggo

 

[Sluggo]

Albert 18,

Cooper demanded; “No crew member is to go aft of the 1st Class Curtain”

Ref: Seattle PI Transcript; page 98.

Sluggo

 

[snowmman]

Was it really Hubbard providing that "FAA Chief Psychiatrist" quote?

I thought Hubbard jumped on the hijack gravy train a little later after he interviewed 50 or so 'jackers (but people eventually thought his theories were too dogmatic...(they kind of were..I'd post his summary profile, but it's kind of weird sounding now in the 2000+ era..maybe more applicable to '70s)).

He wrote a book in '71, "The Skyjacker: His Flights Of Fantasy" .

Hubbard did get involved later in helping talk skyjackers out of it, in at least one case, or capture.

You can read some of his book at
http://books.google.com/books?id=LUdCAAAAIAAJ&pgis=1

are there any sources for who was the FAA Chief Psychiatrist on 11/24/71?

I thought it may have been Dr. Barton Pakull who retired from that position after 39 years with FAA, in Mar, 2005. Don't know if he held that position in 1971 though?

http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/fasmb/editorials_jj/challengingtimes/

 

[snowmman]

I saw JWarner reference the "latin" description. (or I guess I thought of it when you mentioned foreign national in the psychiatrist post)

I was wondering: if you were latin, would you use an alias that sounded very "white" like Dan Cooper. Or is it my cultural goggles?

I was wondering if the "latin" description came about just because he was older with jet black hair, and there may have been a bias that jet black hair on older men (late 40's) may have suggested mexico or latin america ethnicity?

I'm throwing out all sorts of biases here I guess, based on no info. But It seems to me that "latin" doesn't add up. If you throw in the stews knowing he asking for "mexico" then I'm wondering if helps bias the description to "latin" when that's not really true?

It would have been better for them to say "what made you think latin? did his hips sway nicely or ???"

 

[snowmman]

a reference to "disconnect" the bomb is in the stew notes on page 6.

I think it's a mistake on the writer's part? Maybe that's what led to the bad quote about Cooper disconnecting the bomb???

it says

"0000 - PA. to passengers
telling them we have
mechanical trouble
----------------
he will reassure not
trying anything - did
not want to scare her
if their was attempt
he will disconnect the
bomb"

This is very early in the hijack. I don't think disconnect is the right word. I think "detonate" is what the writer meant to say.

Searching for "no worry" thinking: when he showed the bomb, he supposedly talked about touching a wire to detonate it? So maybe they were hoping there was no timer. If there was no timer, then it's unlikely it would detonate after he exits, right?

 

[snowmman]

I hadn't noticed that before.
So of course it made sense to keep Mucklow with him, so the crew wouldn't all run away!
He needed the chutes, the money, the fuel, the plane AND A CREW! But he didn't want the crew all around him, cause they might jump him.

And he didn't want to get hit by an FBI sniper.

So it all makes sense. No psych intrepretation needed. It was the most rational thing to do. There was no better rational plan, right?

 

[Sluggo]

Was it really Hubbard providing that "FAA Chief Psychiatrist" quote?

I thought it may have been Dr. Barton Pakull who retried from that position after 39 years with FAA, in Mar, 2005. Don't know if he held that position in 1971 though?

http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/fasmb/editorials_jj/challengingtimes/

Oh, Mr. snowmman sir,

How right you are!

I slipped a cog and got the two of them mixed up.

Thank you for keeping me honest.

What would I do without the only man on the planet more obsessive/compulsive about NORJAK than me?

Sluggo

 

[Sluggo]

I was wondering: if you were latin, would you use an alias that sounded very "white" like Dan Cooper. Or is it my cultural goggles?

If you throw in the stews knowing he asking for "mexico" then I'm wondering if helps bias the description to "latin" when that's not really true?

I would not use an ethnically mis-matched name, if that is what you mean. If I wanted an alias, I don’t think Carlos Cárdenas would work well. Niether would Rodrigo Brown.

The “Latin” description came from Flo (who really didn’t like Cooper, or at least less so than Tina). Tina said medium to dark complexion. [See below, emphasis mine]

Descriptions of Cooper:
Mucklow
"W/M, mid 40's, 5-10" 6', 180 to 190, med to dark complexion, medium build, dark straight hair with narrow sideburns to mid ear parted and combed back, dark plastic wrap-around sunglasses, dark top coat, dark brown suit possibly with a thin black stripe, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type, he had a low voice with no accent, she did not see scars, marks or tattoos, the man did not have on any jewelry she could see."

Schaffner
W/M, mid 40's, 6', 170-175, average build, brown eyes, straight black hair medium length and parted on the left side, olive skin, black business suit, white shirt, thin black tie, black overcoat, black shoes, black briefcase, dark framed sunglasses with brown lenses, no scars marks or tattoos, he had a normal calm voice and appeared to be of Latin descent."

Sluggo