WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

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I'm continually checking on this thread, but mainly I'm a Lurker.

Cool. We love to have visitors. Anytime you want to share your thoughts, ideas, even if they point away from our suspect, feel free.

It is such an unique crime, that most thought would never be solved. Of course, technically, it is still unsolved. But, I can tell you with 100% accuracy that the FBI has never had a good suspect in this case. H-bach was quoted as saying "I never felt like we were close to solving this case".

As a matter of fact, most of the top 20 suspects in this case can't be placed in Oregon on the day of the crime. So, in other words, most of the top 20 are simply middle aged skydivers, and that is it.

left
 
Ok, here is a personal question. Do you sleep? I check this thread 4:30 a.m. every morning and alot of times you are online or had posted around 3 a.m.
 
The early bird gets the worm. it is called dsl, weird work schedule, and live in different time zone.

left
 
I get up @ 4:30 a.m. every morning.I guess a have a bucket full of worms. Anywho, I love this thread and can't wait to see the outcome.
 
H-bach was quoted as saying "I never felt like we were close to solving this case".

Not when you buy a lifetime subscription to the "Big Splat" theory.

As a matter of fact, most of the top 20 suspects in this case can't be placed in Oregon on the day of the crime. So, in other words, most of the top 20 are simply middle aged skydivers, and that is it.
left

So you eliminate people by investigating their whereabouts, and then put them on a top 20 list when you're sure they were out of state. But with Ted......you hang your hat on his alibi.....and he never even appears on the list.:waitasec:

I'm loving H-B's quote above even more.



OD
 
Correct.

By stating that you never really felt close to the real idenitification of Cooper, go back to "start".

Obviously, you are taking the wrong approach, making an inappropriate assumption, or you have eliminated the wrong person.

Or, you could hope that in 20 years that a 6 time loser, who resembles the one sketch will start hallucinating on his deathbed, supposedly whisper to his wife that he is "Dan Cooooooper", and bingo, the case will have a new top suspect. Well, at least for a day or two, until you find out the guy has never been skydiving, has never been a pilot, lived in Atlanta, and has a history of non-violent crimes such as forgery.

I'm disgusted, or is something else going on?

left
 
Correct.

By stating that you never really felt close to the real idenitification of Cooper, go back to "start".

Obviously, you are taking the wrong approach, making an inappropriate assumption, or you have eliminated the wrong person.

Yeah, I'm still having a problem with this though. I can just see Barney Fife shooting his own foot off with the one bullet Andy let him have, and still solving this case. How on earth did the "Big Splat" reach so far as to affect even Tosaw let alone a good portion of the FBI?

Or, you could hope that in 20 years that a 6 time loser, who resembles the one sketch will start hallucinating on his deathbed, supposedly whisper to his wife that he is "Dan Cooooooper", and bingo, the case will have a new top suspect. Well, at least for a day or two, until you find out the guy has never been skydiving, has never been a pilot, lived in Atlanta, and has a history of non-violent crimes such as forgery.

I'm disgusted, or is something else going on?

Well, if I'm not mistaken, there were two Discovery channel episodes with
"MsCooper". Let's not forget all the excitement of digging up the doggy bones in the back yard for that all elusive NW Airlines ticket. Sadly, for some people this is "evidence" even though there's no meat on the bone.

OLDDOM
 
Yes, that was television at its' best. Not to mention the guy on the diving board blindfolded, falling into a pool holding a briefcase.

Do your homework. Cooper didn't make the Columbia river, and he certainly didn't hold anything in his hands while jumping, or it would have thrown him out of control, and/or blown out of his hands from the force of the chute opening. Please.

Plus, regardless of how dark it is at night, it is still better vision than having a blindfold on. Your eyes adjust to the light. they dilate.

As for Tosaw, I am surprised he never thought that Cooper could have escaped. Didn't he even listen to people who called in on his offer of 25,000 for the name of the hijacker, or was it just a publicity stunt?

I'll bet you anything that someone called in the hijacker's name to Tosaw, and he just ignored it.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I don't think anyone in the FBI ever thought Cooper died. Sure, maybe for the first few days. But, even the searchers said that "Cooper was not in the area where they were told to search". The searchers were correct, Cooper was "chuckling" at home.

Just think, if Teddy hadn't help search for Cooper, he might have gotten away. Oops, that's right, he did get away.

left
 
Another thought I had that backs up OD's theory:

You know, in most police high profile cases, the police are told to lean on their sources.

For example, Ted would have been the "best" source of knowledge regarding skydivers. He is the only "rigger" and skydiving school in the 1971 yellow pages for Portland. The only one.

Why didn't H-bach take a drive out to Sheridan (h-bach never, ever, went to Ted's new skydiving center in Sheridan, which Ted moved into in early 1973) and have a long talk with Ted.

Even if he didn't suspect TEd, he would have noticed how nice Ted's new accommadations were in comparison to a guy who used to rent a "room" at a local airport, before he was asked to "leave" because of reckless flying practices.

Why wouldn't you at least say, Ted, I think you are holding out, and you know who Cooper is? Why not continue to harass Ted into he gives up some names, or potential suspects? Don't forget, Ted, was on probation, so H-bach would have had a lot of leverage.

isn't it odd Ted never called in one potential lead? All the local skydivers he knows, not to mention the annual competitions, so, Ted just about knew most of the expert skydivers in the northwest.

Why wasn't this done? Why are we chasing down a "logger" who opened up a new equipment company, but, not a "skydiver" who only offered to help one time, the night of the hijacking? Isn't this common sense?

To even think that Cooper was not an expert skydiver, is simply someone who is "halluncinating". think about the odds of escaping from a moving jet, versus the odds of robbing 10 banks. Your odds are much greater with the banks, unless, skydiving is something that you do better than anyone. Not to mention, how would someone who hasn't been skydiving in years, even know about modern equipment, the terrain around north Vancouver, the rigger's card, d-rings, flap settings, interphone lingo, minimum altitudes, that a 727 would be a safe platform, etc. Funny how Cooper could have sent that jet to any city in the nation, yet chose Seattle, and could have jumped anywhere in the country, yet chose just north of Portland. And we're suppose to believe the guy is from somewhere else than Portland or Seattle? Please.

Either H-bach was fooled, or he just didn't want to see what was "behind" door number 3.

Another thing I want to know. Of all the people who called in Ted's name as the hijacker, did the FBI even bother to call any of them back? I have been receiving emails which stated that people called in tips back in 1971, and were never called back by the FBI. I guess h-bach had the case solved, why use tips from the public.

left
 
Yes, that was television at its' best. Not to mention the guy on the diving board blindfolded, falling into a pool holding a briefcase.

I agree. To think after all the skydiver testimony of the feasibility and the 4 copycats as empirical proof, that we're still analyzing the possibility of surviving that jump is ridiculous.


Plus, regardless of how dark it is at night, it is still better vision than having a blindfold on. Your eyes adjust to the light. they dilate.

Not to mention that he could have used a flashlight. Interesting bit of information I got from a skydiver at work who's been skydiving for over 20 years. He mentioned that reading an altimeter at night even w/o a flashlight is a breeze because they make luminous glow rings that illuminate the dial and have done so for as long as he can remember.

As for Tosaw, I am surprised he never thought that Cooper could have escaped. Didn't he even listen to people who called in on his offer of 25,000 for the name of the hijacker, or was it just a publicity stunt?

I'll bet you anything that someone called in the hijacker's name to Tosaw, and he just ignored it.

I'll bet you're right on that one ;) . However nothing has been proven yet and until it is (in a court of law) Tosaw will use that has his trump card for not paying. :(

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I don't think anyone in the FBI ever thought Cooper died. Sure, maybe for the first few days. But, even the searchers said that "Cooper was not in the area where they were told to search". The searchers were correct, Cooper was "chuckling" at home.

Even the day after the jump, that ground searcher they interviewed (or both?) mentioned that the information they had from "experts" led them to conclude that this jump was easily possible. Now why would anyone be so insistent that it wasn't...even 20 years later?

OD
 
isn't it odd Ted never called in one potential lead? All the local skydivers he knows, not to mention the annual competitions, so, Ted just about knew most of the expert skydivers in the northwest.

Yes, and they KNEW him. For this reason, I don't find it odd that Ted never called in any suspects. Any that he'd have pointed out would have been more than likely to have fingered Ted. So in addition to the 12 ignored calls the night of the jacking, you would probably have even more people pointing you in Ted's direction in any attempt to investigate this case. It's entirely possible that even the logger pointed H-B back at Ted, but we'll never know.

Either H-bach was fooled, or he just didn't want to see what was "behind" door number 3.

Another thing I want to know. Of all the people who called in Ted's name as the hijacker, did the FBI even bother to call any of them back? I have been receiving emails which stated that people called in tips back in 1971, and were never called back by the FBI. I guess h-bach had the case solved, why use tips from the public.

left

I have mentioned "due diligence" many times on this board. You bring up a good point, and I'd like to clarify what I've meant by it, and how it particularly applies to this example...with an example:

The police get a call from someone who claims his neighbor's dog got loose in his yard and caused problems and they want you do do something. You're the officer who takes the call and you determine that the neighbor is a friend you know well, in fact you just had lunch with them today. Your friend doesn't have a dog, you know this for sure. Due diligence states that to clear the call you need to go out and talk you your friend, even if you know the answer. Then you go next door and talk to the caller and square things, and the issue is resolved, and the call is cleared. You cannot tell the caller that that neighbor is your friend, and you know for a fact that he/she does not have a dog, and that he must be mistaken, or do nothing about it. This is not the way it works for a public servant.

Understanding that, and looking at what H-B did....again I'm having a VERY tough time with the incompetence angle. The FBI got 12 calls that very night and one can only guess how many others in his meager investigation pointed him the same direction, and not one ounce of "due diligence".

OD
 
i really enjoy the ideas that get batted around on this site. a lot of thought from obviously intelligent people. some seem, however to burry themselves in minutia. this is a minor form of tunnel vision. for example, the "HB is dirty" theory is built upon the premise that LC and i are right. it seems obvious now, and possibly easy. both of those satements have been made about our case. but it really wasn't that easy. it took years of arduous work by two people semi-obsessed with not letting the truth lie unknown.

now, people are looking behind the curtain of our magic trick. i hope this is a useful analogy.
a magic trick is performed that seems to go against the viewers paradigms of physics, etc. the viewers say wow, and impossible. Impossible?
then the magician tells the secret. the years of developing the trick are swept aside when the prestige of the trick is shown, the curtain is rent and the viwer sees the method of the perfomer. not much thought is given to the work that went into it. in a moment it goes from "impossible" to "how could it be that obvious - or easy" or "i could have done that" or " how could another magician not have done that?" we have heard all of these replys. some still hold to "impossible." HB has several good reasons to hold to "impossible." fear of embarassment and pride are tremendous motivators of people. they can even motivate the conscious while staying shoved down in the subconscious. i would like to say that i could rise above it if i were in HB's position, but i am not and i don't know what i'd do for certain.

point is, if you went back to the theatre to see the trick again, knowing it's secrets - would you think less of the person next to you for not figuring it out? would you think the ooh's and ahh's are possibly from a plant in the audience from the magician to build excitement? these are not unplausible, but that doesn't make them likely. William of Occam coined an idea that, "all things being equal, the simplest explanation is probably the truth."
 
leftcoast said:
I was wondering what happened to everyone, glad you are checking in.

Oh I'm definitely here! reading... lurking... but HERE!! LOL! Waiting for ANY breaking news -
wonder where Scandi went??? :waitasec:


LC said:
Most of the evidence has been laundered, and the evidence from the plane, if preserved, hopefully will be matched against suspect's prints

That's at least a shot! see if Ted matches ANY of them - and if he does - see 'how' he explains that away...

Wish you had an 'ear' with an FBI guy - to at least RUN prints! Or at least you would THINK they would...


LC said:
I know it is a long shot, but, I never give up. When I know I am right about something, I continue on, until I am proven wrong, or the project is finished. I am patient, and this case is far from over.
Thanks for your continued support.

most welcome leftcoast! Waiting patiently along with you....
 
:laugh:

leftocast said:
H-bach was quoted as saying "I never felt like we were close to solving this case."
Old Dominion said:
Not when you buy a lifetime subscription to the "Big Splat" theory.

:D
 
Understanding that, and looking at what H-B did....again I'm having a VERY tough time with the incompetence angle. The FBI got 12 calls that very night and one can only guess how many others in his meager investigation pointed him the same direction, and not one ounce of "due diligence".

OD

I agree, it is very difficult to believe that someone had so many opportunities to nail Cooper, yet, chose to look the other way.

Plus, it's not like H-bach was close to solving the case. If h-bach had a "perfect" suspect, but, just didn't have the final piece of evidence to get an indictment, I could more easily understand his position.

But, he NEVER had a good suspect. Every single suspect that looked good at first, like McCoy, fell apart very quickly.

Wouldn't a rational person stop, and say, hey, something is going on here?
Why does every suspect turn out not to be Cooper?
Could the F.A."s have given a poor description? Why do the two sketches look nothing like each other? Maybe I should re-interview the witnesses? Nah, can't do that, because I never interviewed them to start with.

Instead, let's expand the search, and start investigating "loggers", especially those with no experience skydiving, and no criminal records.

left
 
Yes, and they KNEW him. For this reason, I don't find it odd that Ted never called in any suspects. Any that he'd have pointed out would have been more than likely to have fingered Ted. So in addition to the 12 ignored calls the night of the jacking, you would probably have even more people pointing you in Ted's direction in any attempt to investigate this case. It's entirely possible that even the logger pointed H-B back at Ted, but we'll never know.

Exactly. Why didn't H-bach sit back and think. It seems like he spent more time chasing new suspects, instead of thoroughly investigating the "good" suspects he already had.

Matt said it best, "it was as if H-bach was simply trying to find reasons to eliminate as many suspects as possible"

There is one simple problem with this logic. FBI agents don't get paid per each suspect they check out. Their goal is to find the perp., not set a world record to having the largest number of suspects in a case.

At some point in time, after the number of suspects hit, say 50. Why weren't these suspects categorized by a numbering or lettering system. 1 would be for excellent suspects with skydiving, criminal record, etc., 2- good suspect, but no criminal record 3- fair suspect, no skydiving, no criminal record 4- ex-wife mad at him,

This way, one could distinguish between excellent suspects, and those who are simply recipients of "revenge" by ex's, neighbors, etc.

I have mentioned "due diligence" many times on this board. You bring up a good point, and I'd like to clarify what I've meant by it, and how it particularly applies to this example...with an example:

The police get a call from someone who claims his neighbor's dog got loose in his yard and caused problems and they want you do do something. You're the officer who takes the call and you determine that the neighbor is a friend you know well, in fact you just had lunch with them today. Your friend doesn't have a dog, you know this for sure. Due diligence states that to clear the call you need to go out and talk you your friend, even if you know the answer. Then you go next door and talk to the caller and square things, and the issue is resolved, and the call is cleared. You cannot tell the caller that that neighbor is your friend, and you know for a fact that he/she does not have a dog, and that he must be mistaken, or do nothing about it. This is not the way it works for a public servant.

Hate to say it, but, H-bach wouldn't have even bothered to call back either party. He would have concluded that his friend didn't have a dog, and that it would be impossible for his friend's dog to be the one in the neighbor's yard. Therefore, the friend would be "eliminated" as the owner of the dog.

That is, until 2 years later, when he runs into his friend at the park, and low and behold, his friend is walking a dog. To his surprise, h-bach says, when did you get the new dog? His friend replies, old Duke, I've had him for over 10 years. You've just never seen him, because he is an outside dog.

I think this is pretty much how this case was investigated.

Understanding that, and looking at what H-B did....again I'm having a VERY tough time with the incompetence angle. The FBI got 12 calls that very night and one can only guess how many others in his meager investigation pointed him the same direction, and not one ounce of "due diligence".

I couldn't agree more.

Our whole lives we have heard about DB Cooper and how he either escaped, was killed, was part of the CIA, and some other out of this world explanations.

However, once the case was investigated properly by two so-called amatuer sleuths, it turned out that this case was just an ordinary caper, with an extraordinary plan, a unique getaway, and some major tunnel vision? or worse?

OD

I asked H-bach at lunch, and to this day I still dont' understand it. Why in the world didn't he at least suspect Teddy was an accomplice? Even if Ted called in at 7pm, I would have investigated the living heck out of him. I would have assumed it was his brother, or other relative or friend on the phone who disguised their voice to sound like Ted. Unless you see someone in person during a particular period of time, you can't be their alibi. An "alibi" means that you know where the person was during a crime. H-bach still doesnt' know where Ted was during the crime, so, how can he say that "I guess I will have to live with the fact that I am his alibi". You are not his alibi, and I think he is starting to realize it. You only "live with" things that you regret, and obviously there must be some level of regret, or his explanation would not include such a defeatess term.

BTW, 36 years later, we are not even certain that it was Ted who made the phone call at 10pm. Where did that call originate from (address), what other calls were made from that particular phone that night, and most importantly, were there any witnesses to that call. Who is to say that it was or wasn't Ted on the phone at 10pm. H-bach hadn't spoken with TEd that often via phone, and hadn't talked with Ted for months, so how is it he was so certain it was Ted? Have you ever received a phone call from a friend, and not recogized their voice, and then after a few minutes, you have to ask politely, is that you George? It happens to all of us. Many people have similar telephone voices, especially when it is someone that you rarely speak to via the phone.

Not that I don't think it wasn't Ted on the phone at 10pm, I certainly do think it was him. I believe the phone call was the final part of the plan. It was a "no lose" proposition. If the FBI suspected him, then time to gas up the plane, fly low, and make a run to a country without extradition. If the FBI wasn't suspecting him, time to get intelligence, such as, was the money marked, do they know where I jumped, etc.



left
 
Teddy as a suspect on Wikipedia seems to be holding. Fingers are crossed. Hope it stays.
 
Plus, it's not like H-bach was close to solving the case. If h-bach had a "perfect" suspect, but, just didn't have the final piece of evidence to get an indictment, I could more easily understand his position.

But, he NEVER had a good suspect. Every single suspect that looked good at first, like McCoy, fell apart very quickly.

Correct. You know as well as I do that H-B could never have offered McCoy the way he did Weber. The NV bureau had already investigated him to no end and it was clear he wasn't Cooper. However that didn't stop Calame from trying to cash in with his own book to the contrary.

Wouldn't a rational person stop, and say, hey, something is going on here?
Why does every suspect turn out not to be Cooper?
Could the F.A."s have given a poor description? Why do the two sketches look nothing like each other? Maybe I should re-interview the witnesses? Nah, can't do that, because I never interviewed them to start with.

Besides, what kind of technical insight could they give about a body hitting the ground at 126.6 Mph?

OD
 
I asked H-bach at lunch, and to this day I still dont' understand it. Why in the world didn't he at least suspect Teddy was an accomplice? Even if Ted called in at 7pm, I would have investigated the living heck out of him. I would have assumed it was his brother, or other relative or friend on the phone who disguised their voice to sound like Ted. Unless you see someone in person during a particular period of time, you can't be their alibi. An "alibi" means that you know where the person was during a crime. H-bach still doesnt' know where Ted was during the crime, so, how can he say that "I guess I will have to live with the fact that I am his alibi". You are not his alibi, and I think he is starting to realize it. You only "live with" things that you regret, and obviously there must be some level of regret, or his explanation would not include such a defeatess term.
I agree. If Ted is innocent you don't "live" with anything. Why isn't he calling the FBI and adhering to that oath he took?

BTW, 36 years later, we are not even certain that it was Ted who made the phone call at 10pm. Where did that call originate from (address), what other calls were made from that particular phone that night, and most importantly, were there any witnesses to that call. Who is to say that it was or wasn't Ted on the phone at 10pm. H-bach hadn't spoken with TEd that often via phone, and hadn't talked with Ted for months, so how is it he was so certain it was Ted? Have you ever received a phone call from a friend, and not recogized their voice, and then after a few minutes, you have to ask politely, is that you George? It happens to all of us. Many people have similar telephone voices, especially when it is someone that you rarely speak to via the phone.

Not that I don't think it wasn't Ted on the phone at 10pm, I certainly do think it was him. I believe the phone call was the final part of the plan. It was a "no lose" proposition. If the FBI suspected him, then time to gas up the plane, fly low, and make a run to a country without extradition. If the FBI wasn't suspecting him, time to get intelligence, such as, was the money marked, do they know where I jumped, etc.

left

The more I try to sum up this "investigation" in a single sentence, the more I realize it just can't be done. Even if Ted is innocent, I'm still thinking WTF?

Until I'm convinced otherwise (and I could be) I see this "investigation" like a map of a mine field. Instead of mine icons indicating where the mines are there are little TM icons. All you do is look busy and stay away from the mines, and you make extra sure others do as well. Never surrender the case and continue steering, even in retirement, that way the little house of "cards" will never blow away. But if a breeze were to topple a portion (2001), like the domino effect that could ensue, the mere mention or suggestion could trigger...well...headlights in the eyes of a deer. ;)

OD
 
Correct. You know as well as I do that H-B could never have offered McCoy the way he did Weber. The NV bureau had already investigated him to no end and it was clear he wasn't Cooper. However that didn't stop Calame from trying to cash in with his own book to the contrary.

Yes, I totally lost respect for Callame and Bernie Rhodes. Callame more so, since he was a FBI agent and head of the Salt Lake City office. Rhodes was just a P.O. trying to catch a break on a famous case.

After listening to Callame's interview with Rinehart, I was shocked as to how little he knew about the Cooper case. It was obvious, that CAllame, never investigated the case, and simply tried to tie the two together since they McCoy copied Cooper.

One good thing about Callame, is it shows that other FBI agents don't hang their hats on the estimates given by witnesses. Heck, McCoy was only 29 years old, and one FBI agent is convinced he was Cooper.

But, the main point is if you are going to write a book accusing a man of being Cooper, as Calame did, why didn't he find the flight attendants and show pictures of McCoy to the F.A.'s, and ask them if he was Cooper? This is a trained FBI agent. It is FBI 101. Heck, Matt and I were able to think of this, and we were able to find both flight attendants with a little hard work. Maybe, it was because Calame knew that Schaffner was already shown a picture of mcCoy and she said he wasn't Cooper.

Shame on them for writing a book, and not doing adequate research.


besides, what kind of technical insight could they give about a body hitting the ground at 126.6 Mph?

OD

True, what good would a sketch do when you try to compare a sketch of a man on the plane, with a man who's face hit the ground at 120mph?

Just think, someone I know witnessed this 13 times, and continued to run a school without remorse. Wouldn't one reveiw their "safety precautions", or training. Heck, the odds are 1 in 60,000 of a fatality in a skydiving death.

So, even if Ted did 10 jumps a day, for 20 years, one would expect 1 death in 20 years.

We all know there is no way he did 10 jumps a day, especially in Oregon where the schools are basically closed 4 months of the year due to rain, and a soaked grass runway which makes taking off on a short runway a little tense.

left
 
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