WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

[leftcoast]

Agree. But would a retired H-B?

I think h-bach wants this case solved, but, at what expense to his reputation.



Knowing someone for 10 years leaves a lot of latitude for reasons why they might bury the case. I'd sure like to know more about their real friendship.

I really don't think H-bach and Teddy were friends. I think they met in the late 60's, I'm guessing around 1968 or so. H-bach simply kept his plane at the same airport as where TEddy taught skydiving lessons. That is, until Teddy was kicked out for almost hitting H-bach in a near mid-air collision. H-bach played a major part in getting Teddy booted, the way I understand the story.

How many times Teddy and H-bach had spoken prior to 1971, I just don't know. I really don't think they were buddies. I think it was an "acquaintance" type of thing. Obviously, they both knew of each other, otherwise how would TEddy have known that H-bach was a FBI agent when the hijacking occurred.




The only problem with this is that there could not have been a mistake in 71 or 72 that wasn't rectifiable once learned. So the case took 1 or 2 years but it would have been solved. I don't think there's any face lost if you come back on old leads and reconsider. It's done all the time. You have a point if he only realized this mistake in 2001. I think that 2001 was the year of the cat. The cat that came out of the bag.





No he definitely gets it now. I just don't think he wants it any more than he did in 71.
Well, if H-bach gets it now, then shame on him. He should be calling the Portland FBI office, explaining what happened, and trying to fix a wrong.

The question is, if the FBI is aware of this what are they going to do? Are they going to drop the ball again for budget or lack of resources? The case is still open, and H-B said himself if he found Cooper he'd say "you're under arrest".

I'm pretty sure there are two individuals in their 70's who are hoping that this whole thing just blows away like a gentle breeze.

OD

Let's hope the FBI at least stops wasting money and investigating the Duane Webers's of this world. It is obvious what happened, and if it can't be prosecuted, so be it. At least, we know who Cooper most likely is, and we can stop adding suspects to the list that is over 1,000 suspects long.

AS for the two 70 year old guys who want this to go away. I agree. Funny, one of them, Teddy, said he was sure that Cooper was 'getting up there in age" and probably didn't want any press, "because someone might want to hurt him". That's right, don't worry about the FA's, just worry about someone wanting to hurt Cooper. Typical.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

I think H-bach was trying to avoid being "showed up" in front of his friend. I don't think H-bach ever showed "any" pictures to the FA's. Since H-bach admitted he never interviewed the FA's, I am assuming that the Minnesota office must have been in charge of showing the FA's pictures of potential suspects.

However, that is simply a guess on my part.



left

Well...then how you could have 1 office showing pictures of suspects who aren't "suspects" because they're not the investigating office? It would then seem that they could have commandeered the investigation away from Ralph.

I never knew the Minnesota office showed the FAs photos. I'm assuming that this is because that is where the crew is from and they went home after the jacking.

I would think that as the lead investigator H-B could have flown wherever he wanted to interview the crew, which he should have done. He could also have had them flown to Portland, or if they preferred had them driven.

Or, how do we know HB didn't fax or mail that Minneapolis office the material and assign an agent to the task?


OD

 

[leftcoast]

Well...then how you could have 1 office showing pictures of suspects who aren't "suspects" because they're not the investigating office? It would then seem that they could have commandeered the investigation away from Ralph.

I never knew the Minnesota office showed the FAs photos. I'm assuming that this is because that is where the crew is from and they went home after the jacking.

I would think that as the lead investigator H-B could have flown wherever he wanted to interview the crew, which he should have done. He could also have had them flown to Portland, or if they preferred had them driven.

Or, how do we know HB didn't fax or mail that Minneapolis office the material and assign an agent to the task?


OD

OD

Like I said, I really don't know the answer to that question.

Obviously, the most intelligent thing to do would be to have H-bach fly to Minn. and show the photo's to the FA's. But, since h-bach has admitted he never interviewed the FA's, I 'm assuming, just assuming, that photo's were sent to Minn, or wherever the FA's were working, and the local office showed the photo's to the FA's.

I do know that Florence and Tina were both based out of Minneapolis at the time. Northwest has their major hub in Minneapolis, and that is where both of them had apartments at the time.

As for the case being taken from H-bach, I don't think that is correct. I think the FBI simply used local agents instead of wasting money and having H-bach fly to Minn. each and every time they had a new suspect.

Obviously, this tells us one thing. The FBI "never" had a serious suspect. If they had a "serious" suspect, one would think the FA's would have been flown in to do a live line-up to view the suspect in person.

I think the FBI was frustrated, and showing photo's to the FA's, was in a way a "hail Mary" in football.

We both agree that showing too many photo's to the FA;s was not a good idea, and I think there was quite a bit of "confusion" going on during this investigation.



left

 

[Old Dominion]

I think h-bach wants this case solved, but, at what expense to his reputation.

What reputation?

How many times Teddy and H-bach had spoken prior to 1971, I just don't know. I really don't think they were buddies. I think it was an "acquaintance" type of thing. Obviously, they both knew of each other, otherwise how would TEddy have known that H-bach was a FBI agent when the hijacking occurred.

If he didn't know H-B well then how could he be sure H-B was a mark and he could pull this off? Regardless of his opinion of H-B he couldn't be certain that H-B wouldn't have been methodical and done his job.

Let's hope the FBI at least stops wasting money and investigating the Duane Webers's of this world. It is obvious what happened, and if it can't be prosecuted, so be it. At least, we know who Cooper most likely is, and we can stop adding suspects to the list that is over 1,000 suspects long.

Where did these 1000 come from? H-B? I'd have thought a guy with 12 or so calls the night of the jacking might just make that list. Oh I forgot, he was "eliminated". Y'know....with H-B's "elimination" skills I'd be inclined to believe he could whittle that list down a little .

OD

 

[leftcoast]

What reputation?

Well, if it is Teddy, wouldn't that be a tad embarassing?

If he didn't know H-B well then how could he be sure H-B was a mark and he could pull this off? Regardless of his opinion of H-B he couldn't be certain that H-B wouldn't have been methodical and done his job. Where did these 1000 come from? H-B? I'd have thought a guy with 12 or so calls the night of the jacking might just make that list. Oh I forgot, he was "eliminated". Y'know....with H-B's "elimination" skills I'd be inclined to believe he could whittle that list down a little .

OD

The 1,000 is from different shows, and a female agent who inherited the case from H-bach in the 80's. THe list is definitely around 1,000.

It doesn't mean each suspect was checked out properly, but, that each of the 1,000 had a "file" opened, or a "index" card, listing them as a potential suspect.

Obviously, Teddy and H-bach had more than one conversation before 71. As to what happened, I just don't know. Obviously, one of two things must have happened. He saw a flaw, or something more sinister.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

What about this other agent that was at the lunch, did you get any sort of feeling about how warm he was to the viability of your suspect? Do you think he might have had a few words with H-B after lunch and everyone left?

What about the female agent who took over. Ever tried to contact her?

OD

 

[leftcoast]

What about this other agent that was at the lunch, did you get any sort of feeling about how warm he was to the viability of your suspect? Do you think he might have had a few words with H-B after lunch and everyone left?

What about the female agent who took over. Ever tried to contact her?

OD

Actually, (I hope H-bach is not reading this), the other agent, will call him Mr. King, was very interested in our suspect. King waited for H-bach to leave, and then came over to me and started to ask more questions about our suspect. He wanted to know what he did for a living, criminal history, etc. It seems that Mr. King remembered that night well. He was also involved in the case, but, to a small extent. I believe it was just doing a background on a guy. He mentioned that maybe H-bach made an error, and got tunnel vision. Mr. King suggested that we inform the FBI office and make them aware of our suspect, and how he slipped through the cracks. I was hoping that MR. King would have contacted the FBI as well, in order to give us more credibility, but, I don't think that happened. Mr. King seemed very interested in our suspect. Very interested.

As for the female agent. She is only in one show. I think her name is Elaine Pasteronelli, or something like that. No, we haven't contacted her, or even tried. Since H-bach retired, there have been at least 5 agents who were assigned to the case. Like I said earlier, the new agents never started over, but, simply took in "new" leads on "new" suspects. I really don't think the agents after H-bach really even know all of the details of the case. I think they were mainly "media" contacts.

The best person to talk to would have been Harold Campbell. He is the man in the video from the Reno press conference. However, he passed away in 1988.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

Actually, (I hope H-bach is not reading this), the other agent, will call him Mr. King, was very interested in our suspect. King waited for H-bach to leave, and then came over to me and started to ask more questions about our suspect. He wanted to know what he did for a living, criminal history, etc. It seems that Mr. King remembered that night well. He was also involved in the case, but, to a small extent. I believe it was just doing a background on a guy. He mentioned that maybe H-bach made an error, and got tunnel vision. Mr. King suggested that we inform the FBI office and make them aware of our suspect, and how he slipped through the cracks. I was hoping that MR. King would have contacted the FBI as well, in order to give us more credibility, but, I don't think that happened. Mr. King seemed very interested in our suspect. Very interested.

Who knows, maybe he did contact them. I can really see where a new agent with their current case load wouldn't want to spend much time on an old case like that, unless they just happened to be fascinated by it. Then it would be more like a hobby, but from the FBI standpoint that just what this case needs.

The best person to talk to would have been Harold Campbell. He is the man in the video from the Reno press conference. However, he passed away in 1988.

left

I agree. In that short clip I saw, the first thing that came to mind was why didn't he get the case assigned to him? Even if he had to work it from Reno, I wonder what would've happened?

BTW, just out of curiosity, and in light of what FS said, did you ever make note of what color eyes Teddy boy has?

OD

 

[leftcoast]

YEs, this case was strange. H-bach in charge of Portland, Harold Campbell in Reno, and Tom Manning in Washington. Not to mention the witnesses primarily lived in Minnesota. Talk about making sure the case gets spread around the country.

It took about 5 visits, but, I think Teddy boy has dark blue eyes. Of course, with dark black wraparound sunglasses, everyone has dark piercing eyes, and that is where I believe the dark piercing eye description came from. Tina mentioned in one of her interviews that Cooper "never" took off his sunglasses.

I will note on the FBI wanted poster, it does say for eye color "probably brown".

Isn't it amazing how you can have one crime, four witnesses, and four different sketches. Tina said Cooper never took off his sunglasses, while Florence said he had the glasses off at some point in time. It is amazing to me, how horrible we are as a society in being witnesses to crimes. Let's face it, some men don't even know the height, weight, and eye color of their own wives.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

It took about 5 visits, but, I think Teddy boy has dark blue eyes. Of course, with dark black wraparound sunglasses, everyone has dark piercing eyes, and that is where I believe the dark piercing eye description came from. Tina mentioned in one of her interviews that Cooper "never" took off his sunglasses.

Uh-oh. Blue?? You know what this means. If the profile doesn't fit...you must elimi-nit. On to the next suspect :laugh:

Isn't it amazing how you can have one crime, four witnesses, and four different sketches.

Isn't it a shame though that Rataczak didn't take a restroom break and get an eyeful of Cooper? Amazing that there are only really 2 eye witnesses unless you count that student and I don't think he was paying attention.

I really wonder what the FBI has in evidence that hasn't been destroyed and/or deteriorated. For starters, I'd sure like to see if Teddy boy matches any of those prints. There may not be any Coop prints but I'd sure like a check against Teddy. DNA...this is the big question. Do they have any? Cigarette butts, maybe, but I remember at least from the Simpson trial that they weren't able to extract from a hair. At least not then, in that trial.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Uh-oh. Blue?? You know what this means. If the profile doesn't fit...you must elimi-nit. On to the next suspect :laugh:
That was one of H-bachs arguments to me about why he didn't look at TEddy. H-bach said the witnesses told the FBI that Cooper's eyes were "dark piercing". I told H-bach that everyone has "dark piercing eyes when they are wearing dark sunglasses. H-bach didn't know what to say.

One thing I will agree with H-bach is that Teddy boy is "not" a perfect match with the descriptions given by eyewitnesses. However, I can't imagine there are to many cases in which witnesses get every detail exact. It just doesn't make any sense why someone would dye their hair, sit the entire time, etc, as part of a disguise, yet, only wear sunglasses part of the time. The sunglasses were part of his disguise, period. Sure, they may help with night vision, but, you have to make yourself look different than your normal appearance. Dyeing one's hair, wearing a toupee, facial makeu, sunglasses, dressing in a suit, etc, smoking, are all methods used to throw off witnesses, imo.

When Flo. went to the cockpit to give the demands to the pilot, the last thing on Flo's mind was a description of Cooper. The first thing on her mind, was that she was afraid for her life.

Flo. didn't pay any atttention to Cooper until he handed her the note. So, how does she know his height, weight, eye color, etc, when the guy was sitting, wearing sunglasses. A little common sense would have gone a long way in this case.


Isn't it a shame though that Rataczak didn't take a restroom break and get an eyeful of Cooper? Amazing that there are only really 2 eye witnesses unless you count that student and I don't think he was paying attention.

Good point. I've always wondered how the flight crew was able to "hold it" for 8 hours without using the restroom. That is a long time. I wonder why Rataczak didn't use the restroom as a way to get a look at Cooper. I do know that Rataczak tried to get Cooper to allow him to bring an escape rope to the back of the plane, but, Cooper told him to stay in the cockpit.

True, the college kid didn't know Cooper was a hijacker. So, he really didn't pay that much attention to him.

The only good witnesses are the three FA's. Alice Hancock, did get a good look at Cooper, but, I have not heard any interviews with her about this case.

I really wonder what the FBI has in evidence that hasn't been destroyed and/or deteriorated. For starters, I'd sure like to see if Teddy boy matches any of those prints. There may not be any Coop prints but I'd sure like a check against Teddy. DNA...this is the big question. Do they have any? Cigarette butts, maybe, but I remember at least from the Simpson trial that they weren't able to extract from a hair. At least not then, in that trial.

OD

Agree. We know Cooper used that interphone last. Any prints on that phone that match a certain person we know, could be the key to this case. I sure hope the FBI techs spent a lot of time lifting prints from that phone.

I think to get DNA from a hair, it has to include the "root", but I 'm not sure. Even without a root, I believe that forsensics can state if the hair is "consistent" with hair from a suspect.

If it happened today, they could have retreived Cooper's DNA from the cup he drank from. But, supposedly, Cooper wiped the cup, and bottles of Seagrams 7 that he used for his drink, and supposedly no prints were lifted.

H-bach states there were 66 unidentified prints lifted from that 727 where Cooper was known to have sat and touched. Of course, they could be from other passengers. But, you never know, all we need is one print, and I think the case has enough circumstantial evidence to prosecute. imo.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

That was one of H-bachs arguments to me about why he didn't look at TEddy. H-bach said the witnesses told the FBI that Cooper's eyes were "dark piercing". I told H-bach that everyone has "dark piercing eyes when they are wearing dark sunglasses. H-bach didn't know what to say.

How about..."Duane Weber anyone"? Or....what about..."let's go dig up some doggy-bones". Just don't check the '71 national penitentiary register under either "Weber" or "Collins"

Agree. We know Cooper used that interphone last. Any prints on that phone that match a certain person we know, could be the key to this case. I sure hope the FBI techs spent a lot of time lifting prints from that phone.

Yup, I sure hope Harold's boys were able to lift that one. Have a funny feeling though that Coop might have wiped those too.

I think to get DNA from a hair, it has to include the "root", but I 'm not sure. Even without a root, I believe that forsensics can state if the hair is "consistent" with hair from a suspect.

I think that's correct.

H-bach states there were 66 unidentified prints lifted from that 727 where Cooper was known to have sat and touched. Of course, they could be from other passengers. But, you never know, all we need is one print, and I think the case has enough circumstantial evidence to prosecute. imo.

left

They have put criminals away with just a print. Although it was more than a print in one case since the case was so old just the print match was not enough. The suspect had moved far away. They did have to prove that the he had been in that town at that time, which they did. This was a case that was solved by the super finger print computer the FBI implemented a few years ago.

WRT "You know who" , you've got enough circumstantial to go with it. Not to mention the possible eye witnesses. I'd still like for Tina to take a look at those photos.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

I would love for the FBI to go to visit Tina and show her the photos.

What kills me in this case is the following. Tina lives within one and a half hours from Portland.

If H-bach really wants this case solved, why won't he drive down to visit Tina, bring along our photo of Teddy, along with Webers, Mccoys, etc, and talk with Tina.

Then again, if he didn't do that back in 1971, why would he do it now.

I find it amazing that we were able to find both FA's, and meet up with them, yet, H-bach never has.

Plus, what about Alice Hancock. Is she still alive? I'm sure she is only about 60 or so. What about locating her, and asking her to view a few photos?

The one problem in this case is as follows. The FBI spent too much energy and time showing the FA's photo's of skydivers. Because of this, one of the FA's became upset with the fBI, and basically withdrew from assisting them.

However, I have a feeling if the current FBI went out to visit her, apologized for the "sloppy" and "lazy" work done in 1971, explained the situation, and the case against the guy, and asked her to view a photo lineup, many she would change her mind.

I think many of us forget what a horrific impact such an event can have on someone's well being. Many people do not want to get involved, or are afraid of putting someone in jail because of their testimony. When people are victims of crimes, it wasn't their choice to be involved, it just happened. that is why it is so critical,in my mind, that LE treat witnesses with appreciation, respect, sympathy, etc,. In addition, LE needs to make certain that the crime scene is processed correctly, so that the physical evidence can be tied to Cooper.

It's odd how cavalier Teddy is about this crime. He acts as if Cooper was "gentle" to those girls. I find that extremely bothersome, and it shows me someone who even if he is not involved, had absolutely no intention on assisting the fBI in their hunt.

Heck, I told Teddy we had solved the case, and asked if we should turn Cooper in, and he said "no". Now, why in the world would a guy who assisted the fBI in the hunt for Cooper, not want us to turn in the hijacker. IT makes zero sense. PLus, the strangest thing is, Teddy never once asked us who our suspect was. IT wasn't until our last visit that we spilled the beans, yet, during the last two visits, Teddy knew we had solved the case, and never, ever, asked us who "cooper" was. Is it me, or is that very "telling".

left

ps Sure, it is likely Cooper wiped down the interphone. But, you never know. It wasn't part of his plan to ask the cockpit to slow down since he couldn't get the stairs down. So, since it was not in his original plan, you never know.

Plus, don't forget. Cooper did make some mistakes. He accidentially left his tie on the plane. I guess ties are probably not good surfaces for lifting prints, since they are made of polyester or silk. But........

I Have a theory on the money bag, that has never been discussed, don't know if it is true or not. But, I do have a hunch about the money bag, that just may explain things.

 

[Old Dominion]

Because of this, one of the FA's became upset with the fBI, and basically withdrew from assisting them.

Hancock?

It's odd how cavalier Teddy is about this crime. He acts as if Cooper was "gentle" to those girls. I find that extremely bothersome, and it shows me someone who even if he is not involved, had absolutely no intention on assisting the fBI in their hunt.

Heck, I told Teddy we had solved the case, and asked if we should turn Cooper in, and he said "no". Now, why in the world would a guy who assisted the fBI in the hunt for Cooper, not want us to turn in the hijacker. IT makes zero sense. PLus, the strangest thing is, Teddy never once asked us who our suspect was. IT wasn't until our last visit that we spilled the beans, yet, during the last two visits, Teddy knew we had solved the case, and never, ever, asked us who "cooper" was. Is it me, or is that very "telling".

These could very well be the two most interesting paragraphs in this entire thread, perhaps the board when you consider that this is one of the 20th centuries greatest mysteries, and especially given what we already know.

Did you ever wonder, even after the first meeting if he already knew? Did he ever give a reason why you shouldn't turn Coop in?

I Have a theory on the money bag, that has never been discussed, don't know if it is true or not. But, I do have a hunch about the money bag, that just may explain things.

Ok, don't keep us in suspense, what is it? Do you mean how he used the moneybag to get away, or why it shows he's guilty?


OD

 

[leftcoast]

Hancock?

tina



These could very well be the two most interesting paragraphs in this entire thread, perhaps the board when you consider that this is one of the 20th centuries greatest mysteries, and especially given what we already know.

Did you ever wonder, even after the first meeting if he already knew? Did he ever give a reason why you shouldn't turn Coop in?

My personal take is that Ted figured it out after about our second visit. Once we told him that we had figured it out, we kind of hinted to him that we "knew" who it was. But, of course, he continued to throw us curve balls by saying that the FBI called him, and acting as if he couldn't remember if Cooper got 100,000, or 200,000 , which I found hysterical. The guy knows the porosity rating, but, can't remember the dollar amount.

I think Teddy boy had it figured out, but, was trying to "screw" with us, and lead us away from him, but,at the same time, he "loved" talking about how "intelligent" Cooper was, and how "gentle" he was.

But, in retrospect, I really think Teddy knew early on that we knew it was him. As a matter of fact, he brought he wife with him on the final meeting, to buffer us from confronting us.

I guess the real give-a-way to me was how nervous he was when KOIN called for an interview. He was literally shaking. He wanted us to tell him why KOIN was calling, as if, we were responsible for protecting him. Part of me wonders, if he wanted to tell the story, but not too much, so that the legend could live on.


Teddys' reasoning for us not turning in Cooper was that maybe "someone would want to hurt him". Didn't make any sense to me. Why would someone hurt Cooper? I think it was teddy's way of saying, hey, the guy didn't hurt anyone, why not just leave him alone.

Who knows, maybe he thought if he gave us some good information, he could put us off track, or convince us that he was a good guy, or that he could outsmart us just like he did to H-bach. He sure did enjoy talking about the case, as if, he was proud of Cooper, and he was a hero. He even mentioned what an idiot McCoy was, and "how he had it coming". I wonder how Teddy knew that McCoy and Cooper were not the same person?

It is odd, not one time during our conversations, did Teddy have one bad thing to say about Cooper. Everything was complimentary, about his planning it to a "t", and how he didn't hurt anyone.

Not once did Teddy say, ya, that Damm Cooper cost me a lot of time. The feds kept coming out to my school, looking at my records, so I had to keep my records straight, and waste a bunch of time. Not one time did he complain about it. Then, he pretends not to know the name of Himmelsbach. Please. That makes no sense at all. I think he wanted to steer clear of admitting he knew H-bach before the hijacking, and didn't want to admit even remembering any names.

Another strange thing, is that he never mentioned the FA's by name. He would make general statements, but, never once did he say the names of the girls. In retrospect, that is very odd. Everybody knows their names who knows about this case.


Ok, don't keep us in suspense, what is it? Do you mean how he used the moneybag to get away, or why it shows he's guilty?


OD

No, it's nothing big. I've always thought that Cooper left the money bag on the plane. Just a gut call.

Teddy described how Cooper gutted the back up chest chute, and used it to put the money in. Well, if the money bag was too bulky, or if he wanted to check it out to make certain it wasn't "bugged", then why not dump the money packets into the empty chest chute knapsack, and then tie the chest chute to the rear chute via the shrouds cut from the extra back chute that Cooper had popped open.

As a matter of fact, if I had to guess, I would guess that is exactly what happened.

Think about it. The FBI started bugging the chutes after the Cooper case. How do we know the FBI didn't bug the "money bag" in the Cooper case, but, couldn't locate the bag, or he simply switched bags. IT is just a "guess". I do know that Cooper examined the lines of the back chute he popped open, so why wouldn't he check out the bag for bugs, etc. PLus, that money bag is "physical evidence", why not leave it behind.

Regardless, I believe that "burying" the money in the sand was ingenius (if that is what happened). First, you need to find a place to keep the money until you can wash it in a week or two. Next, burying the money will prevent any electronic devices (bugs) from letting the FBI know your location. Not to mention that sand is easy to dig without a shovel, and the location is simply 10 miles downstream from his home.

So, my theory,just a theory, is that maybe Cooper left the money bag (empty of course) on the plane. You know, in all these cases, there are certain items never released to the public. Could this be one of them?

Otherwise, why wouldn't the FBI put the "bugs" in future hijackings in with the money, instead of the chutes? Maybe, the chutes are better at transmitting signals, but, I would want to follow that money, not four chutes, especially after mccoy brought his own.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

I guess the real give-a-way to me was how nervous he was when KOIN called for an interview. He was literally shaking. He wanted us to tell him why KOIN was calling, as if, we were responsible for protecting him. Part of me wonders, if he wanted to tell the story, but not too much, so that the legend could live on.

Were you with him when KOIN called?

I wonder how Teddy knew that McCoy and Cooper were not the same person?

It would have been interesting to hear what he had to say about that.

Not once did Teddy say, ya, that Damm Cooper cost me a lot of time. The feds kept coming out to my school, looking at my records, so I had to keep my records straight, and waste a bunch of time. Not one time did he complain about it. Then, he pretends not to know the name of Himmelsbach.

Another thing he never asked you is HOW you could be sure you had the right suspect...did he? What's interesting about this "not knowing H-B" is that he told IE that he called the FBI the night of the heist. H-B admitted speaking to Teddy. Someone should have asked both more about this and just how good friends they are. Remember that Teddy said in the KOIN interview that the FBI called him several times, but the narrator in the IE segment says that Teddy admitted calling the FBI. We've got an inconsistency right there and on the record.

Another strange thing, is that he never mentioned the FA's by name. He would make general statements, but, never once did he say the names of the girls. In retrospect, that is very odd. Everybody knows their names who knows about this case.

Except that they could deliver eyewitness matches to Cooper. Cooper called the FA's by name didn't he?

No, it's nothing big. I've always thought that Cooper left the money bag on the plane. Just a gut call.

Could be. Could very well be.

I sure enjoyed H-B stating that he had hydrologists testify that the money wasn't buried there. It floated down the washougal/Columbia and ended there with all the packets together. Maybe they were in that bag for their journey down the Washougal/Columbia and the bag which held them together rotted away w/o a trace (even though the money didn't ) and that's how they arrived there. I'd sure like to see that bag with $6000 in 20's make it through parts of the Washougal that are only inches deep. IIRC parts of the Wash look like a shallow creek. And I believe according to H-B's theory they'd have had a long Washougal trip to take before even getting to the Columbia.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Were you with him when KOIN called?
NO, KOIN called him several times, and Teddy was out of state when they called. So, he had several weeks to think about why KOIN was calling.



It would have been interesting to hear what he had to say about that.

I would love to know how Teddy is so confident that Cooper and mccoy are not the same person. He made it seem like there was zero doubt. That is why a good investigator listens, versus some who like to talk all the time (you know who)



Another thing he never asked you is HOW you could be sure you had the right suspect...did he? What's interesting about this "not knowing H-B" is that he told IE that he called the FBI the night of the heist. H-B admitted speaking to Teddy. Someone should have asked both more about this and just how good friends they are. Remember that Teddy said in the KOIN interview that the FBI called him several times, but the narrator in the IE segment says that Teddy admitted calling the FBI. We've got an inconsistency right there and on the record.

Absolutely, he is on tape from KOIN saying one thing, and IE has said that TEddy said he called the FBI. I would love to listen to IE's tape of Teddy telling them he called the FBI, or did IE infer that? Either way, IE made it clear that "teddy has a rock solid alibi since he called the FBI that night". Why would an innocent person have three versions of what happened that night.

Right, he never really argued that we had the wrong guy. He simply stated that he had a solid alibi. I asked him if the FBI had checked out his alibi, and he said "no". Well, now doesnt' that prove he is lying about the FBI calling him five times. IF the FBI had in fact called him five times, why in the world would the FBI have to check out his alibi? If his alibi is rock solid, there is no need to check it out. When I refer to his alibi, I am referring to alibi version # 3, the one that says he had dinner with his girlfriend.

and why do we have two versions of the armed robbery? One version is he was drunk, the other,someone put acid in his drink. Which is it? OR is it the most obvious, that he was broke, robbed a grocery store, and was quickly apprehended because they had a silent alarm( I'm guessing).




Except that they could deliver eyewitness matches to Cooper. Cooper called the FA's by name didn't he?

Ya, Cooper definitely called Tina by name, as a way to intimidate her. Funny how a certain individual refuses to even mention the girls by name.




Could be. Could very well be.

I sure enjoyed H-B stating that he had hydrologists testify that the money wasn't buried there. It floated down the washougal/Columbia and ended there with all the packets together. Maybe they were in that bag for their journey down the Washougal/Columbia and the bag which held them together rotted away w/o a trace (even though the money didn't ) and that's how they arrived there. I sure like to see that bag with $6000 in 20's make it through parts of the Washougal that are only inches deep. IIRC parts of the Wash look like a shallow creek. And I believe according to H-B's theory they'd have had a long Washougal trip to take before even getting to the Columbia.

OD

The Washougal theory is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life. There is zero chance of that happening. I dont' know where H-bach came up with that. It would include a 20 mile hike for Cooper and him being stupid enough to carry the money with him, and to die while in the river, the the money bag flows 20 miles down the Washougal, and then another 20 miles down the Columbia to Tena's bar. Impossible. Plus, no sign of a body.

Even if Cooper jumped and landed in the Columbia, there is no "reasonable" explanation as to how three packets could fall out of the bag, end up touching each other on the beach, get buried, and still be touching each other 8 years later. There is only one or two reasonable explanations. And both, include Cooper being at that particular spot of the Columbia river, on Tena's bar, either hiding the money, or placing it there to make the feds think he drowned.

I just can't imagin how H-bach could think anything solid could flow down the Washougal. It is very shallow at points, and continues to curve, as the water makes it way down into the Columbia. With all the rocks, shallow water, it is impossible to believe in such a theory. Plus, Jerry Thomas spent 8 years walking through that river and found nothing. I wonder why H-bach didnt' join him for the search?

Yes, I agree, the reporters on KOIN and IE should have asked Teddy the next question. That is, why did your story change, and why does H-bach and Teddy have different versions of what happened.

Plus, if Teddy had a "rock solid alibi", then why in the heck would he need to lie to us, and tell us the FBI had called him. Simple, because his alibi is not rock solid, and he knows it.

I think this story is quite easy to put together. Why H-bach didn't become more suspicious of Teddy when he heard Teddy on the KOIN segment lie about the FBI calling him is beyond me. I even called H-bach to verify that didn't happen, last year., and H-bach said "I don't know why Teddy would be telling you that". Well, maybe, Teddy knows that two hours is more than enough time to make it to a phone. some people either had zero business to be in LE, or worse.

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[leftcoast]

It is amazing how much information you get from a suspect when you actually listen.

Good call on Teddy being so confident that Cooper and mccoy are not in the same, OD.

I cant' believe how confident Teddy was that McCoy and Cooper were not the same person. He said, " Mccoy was an idiot, he had it coming", and that the "fbi wasn't mad at Cooper, they just wanted it to stop, before someone got hurt", and the classic, "ya, the fBI said Cooper was a hero because he didn't hurt anyone". So, wouldn't McCoy be a hero too?

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if a certain individual is a little upset that he came up with such a great plan, only to have idiots follow his lead.

Think about it, before McCoy and the others, the FBI thought that Cooper likely died during the exit. mccoy and others proved the jump was a piece of cake for an experienced skydiver. Plus, it is the same as when you study hard for a test, and the guy sitting next to you in class copies off of your test answers. I can understand why Teddy would not be happy. Not to mention that each and every new attempt, put more focus on the Cooper case, and wouldn't let the case just go away. One does wonder if the money at Tena's bar was an attempt to make the case go "away".

If only H-bach would have listened back in 1971, or played along. OF course, I realize some believe it wasn't an accident.

maybe, teddy found this weakness during the time he was booted from the Aurora airport. Who knows? Maybe Teddy made up a story related to why he almost hit H-bach in mid-air and h=bach bought it. Considering this relationship, it makes little sense that someone would try to pull off a crime with a possible death sentence, or life in prison, unless he thinks he can get away with it.

It's funny, of all the theories that I came up with, I think the theory about Cooper handing the note on Portland soil is probably the best. I'm not patting myself on the back, but, it is the only time in history that I'm aware of, that a hijacker hands a note saying he is hijacking an airplane while still on the ground. It doesnt' make a whole lot of sense, and is very risky. What if Flo had panicked, yelled, and called the pilot and told him to stop the plane. Cooper would have been stuck on the ground. With all the planning Cooper did, there has to be a reason why he handed the note while the plane was taxiing on the ground in Portland. And, I know it was 3pm, and the banks were closing, but, five minutes would not matter either way. It was part of the plan, imo.

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[Old Dominion]

NO, KOIN called him several times, and Teddy was out of state when they called. So, he had several weeks to think about why KOIN was calling.

So he was shaking when he was talking to you about it, before he called KOIN, or they got a hold of him?

Absolutely, he is on tape from KOIN saying one thing, and IE has said that TEddy said he called the FBI. I would love to listen to IE's tape of Teddy telling them he called the FBI, or did IE infer that? Either way, IE made it clear that "teddy has a rock solid alibi since he called the FBI that night". Why would an innocent person have three versions of what happened that night.

That's a good question whether or not they inferred that. You didn't tell IE that did you? Really it doesn't matter though, because H-B doesn't remember it the way Teddy told KOIN, and he's on record stating that. If I understand it correctly that call is a matter of record with the FBI. Additionally I'm sure someone has him on tape telling it several different ways.

Right, he never really argued that we had the wrong guy. He simply stated that he had a solid alibi. I asked him if the FBI had checked out his alibi, and he said "no". Well, now doesnt' that prove he is lying about the FBI calling him five times. IF the FBI had in fact called him five times, why in the world would the FBI have to check out his alibi? If his alibi is rock solid, there is no need to check it out. When I refer to his alibi, I am referring to alibi version # 3, the one that says he had dinner with his girlfriend.

That's right. And how does he know for sure that they didn't check it out?
How does he know for sure they didn't check the restaurant, talk to some people etc. I'd have expected him to say something like "I don't know".

Yes, I agree, the reporters on KOIN and IE should have asked Teddy the next question. That is, why did your story change, and why does H-bach and Teddy have different versions of what happened.

Agree, maybe they wanted to leave something for 60 minutes .

I think this story is quite easy to put together. Why H-bach didn't become more suspicious of Teddy when he heard Teddy on the KOIN segment lie about the FBI calling him is beyond me. I even called H-bach to verify that didn't happen, last year., and H-bach said "I don't know why Teddy would be telling you that". Well, maybe, Teddy knows that two hours is more than enough time to make it to a phone. some people either had zero business to be in LE, or worse.

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I'm wondering if Teddy's name "kept popping up" 36 years later, just how many more times did it "pop up" 36 years ago?

I said it many posts ago but I'd still like to ask again....How hard to you have to try to be absolutely certain that you don't solve this case by accident?

OD

 

[leftcoast]

So he was shaking when he was talking to you about it, before he called KOIN, or they got a hold of him?

KOIN had called and wanted to interview him about the Cooper case. However, they didn't tell teddy why they wanted to interview him. Teddy was scared, and thinking the worse. Teddy was trying to find out what we knew, as to what questions KOIN was going to ask him. Teddy had already talked to KOIN and they were coming out to visit him the following week. So, we just happened to stop by, and Teddy mentioned that KOIn had called, and was fishing for information from us, as to why KOIN would want an interview. I think Teddy was thinking the worst. LIttle did he know, that Donahue, wasn't going to ask him any tough questions, such as how is it that starting in 1971, you no longer had outside employment.


That's a good question whether or not they inferred that. You didn't tell IE that did you? Really it doesn't matter though, because H-B doesn't remember it the way Teddy told KOIN, and he's on record stating that. If I understand it correctly that call is a matter of record with the FBI. Additionally I'm sure someone has him on tape telling it several different ways.

No, we didn't say anything to IE until our interview. We were last to be interviewed that day. So, IE could have seen it on KOIN's piece. LIke you said, either way, it is a "confirmed" inconsistency. Not that we need it, since, we have "proof" of everything.

That's right. And how does he know for sure that they didn't check it out?
How does he know for sure they didn't check the restaurant, talk to some people etc. I'd have expected him to say something like "I don't know".

Teddy had no doubt that the FBI didn't check out his alibi. Probably because he "never" had to give an alibi. I don't think h-bach ever asked him for an alibi. As a matter of fact, I know H-bach never asked Teddy for an alibi, since I asked him at lunch.

Agree, maybe they wanted to leave something for 60 minutes .

It's called lazy reporting. Asking me for details, criminal reports, DOB's, and then telling me it is "his" story. Wrong. If it was your story, then you would know Teddy's DOB, without having to ask a citizen for such information.



I'm wondering if Teddy's name "kept popping up" 36 years later, just how many more times did it "pop up" 36 years ago?

I'll bet you that Ted's name has the highest amount of tips than any other person. Of course, the FBI never called the tipsters back, to ask why they suspected him, so, they don't know why the tipsters suspected him. You think the guy who Teddy threatened to kill in Donald in 1971 may have called in his name as a potential hijacker? A weird irony in this case, is that Teddy had a war going on in 1971 with the FBI, FAA, Aurora airport, and his neighbors at Donald, one of which was named McCoy. Small world.


I said it many posts ago but I'd still like to ask again....How hard to you have to try to be absolutely certain that you don't solve this case by accident?

OD[/quote]

Great question. This is really hard to believe. Heck, H-bach was a 20 year veteran of the fBI, a college grad., and he doesn't check out the local skydiving instructor. Come on. And the strangest part is that H-bach wasn't convinced Cooper was wearing a disguise. Hello. Sunglasses, dyed hair. And I suppose Dan Cooper was his real name.

I guess H-bach "will just have to live with the fact that he is Ted's alibi". Hmm, I think that is as close to an admission of a possible screw up as we will ever get.

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