MrShutter45
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Makes sense! gotta soak this info in some and take care of some things offline, nice talking to ya, keep me o my toes!
WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3
- Thread starter martin walkerdine
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Makes sense! gotta soak this info in some and take care of some things offline, nice talking to ya, keep me o my toes!
I will go back and search for exact language in the crew interviews but
my impression is the socalled pressure 'bump' was mild.
The plane was flying unpressurised. Any ideas on pressure differential
inside the cabin flying unpressurised, with stair door closed vs open ?
MrShutter45
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the cockpit reported "getting some oscllins in the cabin, must be doing something with the air stairs"
I don't recall reading anything about 305 feeling or hearing anything, Hominid made sense about the engine noise coming in, but 305 does not mention this.
flight 305 was at 10,000 ft and flight 855 was at 16,000
If your question is re. the rear door being open or closed:
If the plane is unpressurized, the cabin pressure would be pretty much the same whether or not the aft door was open--except that the cabin pressure could follow the outside pressure a little faster. A cabin generally has some small amount of leakage. It's also possible the pressurization system would allow flow between the inside and outside when the pressurization is turned off.
If your question is re. the stair being open or closed:
The difference would be small. Maybe hundredth or thousandth of the outside atmospheric pressure? The reason being that the stair area inside the fuselage is a part of the plane that was not pressurized. Even with the stair closed, the pressure in the cabin would be essentially the same as the outside pressure. The pressure would drop a tiny bit when the stairs were pushed down because of lower pressure volume being created downwind of the stair.
If your question is re. pressure pulse getting to the crew and the cockpit door being open or closed:
The door being closed would block considerably any abrupt pressure changes, and smooth them out. A step change of pressure in back would cause the pressure in the cockpit to ramp up or down over a short time until it reached the same pressure as in the back. Even the first class curtain could have a considerable similar dampening effect on abrupt pressure pulse propogation.
305 would be unlikely to say anything about noise because it would be a given for everyone involved at the time. There was high engine noise from the time the engines were started at SEATAC, and especially during takeoff. The reason for this is that the aft door was open. Back in the stair area, the noise is high even without the stair down because the space is right below the center (tail) engine.
It's certain the noise would have increased some as the stair was opened more and more, and that it would drop some momentarily when the stair rebounded momentarily. But there were also other things going on at the same time. Maybe the crew was fixated on instrument reaction or the plane pitching, or just mentioned only part of all they sensed.
It's also possible the crew on the McCoy flight was more alert for things that could be significant, because of knowledge the industry got from the Cooper incident.
BTW: re. the diff between the Cooper and McCoy case, I wonder if the McCoy flight had a first-class curtain. If it didn't this could be why he directed that the door be closed, and taped the peep hole. I'll check the cabin maps I have. I don't recall if I've seen one for the right airline and right period.
Please excuse me for the rest of the day. The offer of doubling the freeplay by a nearby indian casino has a strong pull on my lady friend. So, I have to go and try to lose as little as possible. I always have a hard time getting her out of a casino before 2am, so I'll be nearly dead until late tomorrow.
I do have a seating arrangement for an old UAL 727. Might have been Georger who posted it on the darkzone. I can't see any clue on it as to whether or not they had a curtain. At least many airlines used them, but I really couldn't say that they all did.
MrShutter45
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here is a pic of what appears to be a new 727, I don't know how close to the cockpit the pic was taken though?
http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/?action=view¤t=inside727.jpg
I think the pic was probably taken from right at the front of the coach class section (which NWA called "tourist" class then). Note the lit up area midway down the cabin. I'm pretty sure that lighting would have been from an open galley service door.
The galley there would make it a -100 series plane. (Ref. your floor plans.)
I have been bogged down in a peripheral cooper matter which someone emailed me about, and will be back later tonight.
I revisited the old interviews with Rataczak and Anderson. Both said that
the oscillations started (they thought) with the stairs going out (and
down?) and continued for some time. Nobody heard the oscillations but
they speculated had someone been further back in the plane one might
have heard something vibrating - probably the stairs? Then the
oscillations came to an abrupt hault which caused Andersonm to look back
at his panel and he noticed the (altutude - pressure?) guage fluctuating
and everyone in the cockpit thought they had felt an abrupt pressure
change - Scott radioed this information to NWA.
To change the subject, just as abruptly, has anyone ever seen this website? Any thoughts?
http://dbcooperdecoded.com/index.html
G.
MrShutter45
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I have seen this, the guy also has a video claiming he knows the type of briefcase Cooper had, let me see if can find it.
here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrbLLAJXeNE
Seems a stretch to me ? I confess I dont know anything (really) about these socalled letters - never followed it or asked anyone about it - but there are a few people who think these
letters are genuine. I sometimes ask myself, is there any small facet of this case that hasnt
been opened up or expanded upon, ad infinitum? Is there an end to it! ? There are some now
asking: does this website have a Marla/LD connection? I can assure everyone I do not know!
(I say laughing).
Last thing first: I'd never seen the site. I think that the theme about the places from which the cuts came was some kind of code is very weak. I think such associations could be made with most any places in the magazines. It does appear that at least a few of the letters must have come from the places he found in the magazines. Looks like absolute proof that DB was a pervert ;-).
Any clue why they thought the oscillations started with the stair being deployed? Did they feel it, like being on a little roller coaster?
So, a bit of time after oscillations stopped, the guage did something and they all thought that abrupt pressure change occurred at the time of the guage change?
Did the info Scott radioed include the oscillation story and the guage and abrupt pressure change? This would be a bit of storytelling, so it would make sense that someone on the other end would abbreviate it and foul it up in the process.
The info about the time relationship between oscillation and abrupt pressure change makes sense to me.
Clipping attached -
Attachments
Originally Posted by georger 
The helo took off from the Ntl Guard base at PDX with H
on board. McChord and one of the controlers helped
route the helo north and they flew a kind of zig-zag
search pattern across and both sides of V23, as far
as 20 miles north of Portland. They looked for suspicious
vehicle lights or activity, and any sign of a fire (with the
helo's search light off). The search was intended to look
for any sign of Cooper or suspicious activity on the
ground, not to try and intercept 305. With negative
results in poor visibility weather, they finally gave up and
came back to PDX.....
I called and confirmed the above today. In addition: The National Guard
chopper pilot flew Himmelsbach and another FBI agent on 11/24/71 on a
course basically back and forth across V23, the path they told me that #305
passed right over PDX (pretty close) on and that their primary Cooper search
operation was east of Woodland (about 20 miles north of Vancouver). Only
one chopper was used. Most of these NG guys were also Sheriff's
Deputies. Only one chopper was used that night, more the next day.
Cooper was long gone, though, because they were searching the wrong area
and RH realized that later. Everyone surmised that night he jumped east of
Woodland, well not everyone but everyone that mattered. Either Cooper
allowed for some false readings, or the crew was too sensitized to the first
change in pressure (maybe from Cooper testing the airstairs but not actually
leaving). A second change in pressure might go less noticed (the actual
jump) because the crew is sensitized to the first "bump" only, or, because
some turbulence over Portland helped disguise the next pressure change.
We'll probably never know. But that is where Himmelsbach and the chopper
pilot went that night, with lights out soas not to alert Cooper on the ground.
The helo took off from the Ntl Guard base at PDX with H
on board. McChord and one of the controlers helped
route the helo north and they flew a kind of zig-zag
search pattern across and both sides of V23, as far
as 20 miles north of Portland. They looked for suspicious
vehicle lights or activity, and any sign of a fire (with the
helo's search light off). The search was intended to look
for any sign of Cooper or suspicious activity on the
ground, not to try and intercept 305. With negative
results in poor visibility weather, they finally gave up and
came back to PDX.....
I called and confirmed the above today. In addition: The National Guard
chopper pilot flew Himmelsbach and another FBI agent on 11/24/71 on a
course basically back and forth across V23, the path they told me that #305
passed right over PDX (pretty close) on and that their primary Cooper search
operation was east of Woodland (about 20 miles north of Vancouver). Only
one chopper was used. Most of these NG guys were also Sheriff's
Deputies. Only one chopper was used that night, more the next day.
Cooper was long gone, though, because they were searching the wrong area
and RH realized that later. Everyone surmised that night he jumped east of
Woodland, well not everyone but everyone that mattered. Either Cooper
allowed for some false readings, or the crew was too sensitized to the first
change in pressure (maybe from Cooper testing the airstairs but not actually
leaving). A second change in pressure might go less noticed (the actual
jump) because the crew is sensitized to the first "bump" only, or, because
some turbulence over Portland helped disguise the next pressure change.
We'll probably never know. But that is where Himmelsbach and the chopper
pilot went that night, with lights out soas not to alert Cooper on the ground.
MrShutter45
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Originally Posted by georger
The helo took off from the Ntl Guard base at PDX with H
on board. McChord and one of the controlers helped
route the helo north and they flew a kind of zig-zag
search pattern across and both sides of V23, as far
as 20 miles north of Portland. They looked for suspicious
vehicle lights or activity, and any sign of a fire (with the
helo's search light off). The search was intended to look
for any sign of Cooper or suspicious activity on the
ground, not to try and intercept 305. With negative
results in poor visibility weather, they finally gave up and
came back to PDX.....
I called and confirmed the above today. In addition: The National Guard
chopper pilot flew Himmelsbach and another FBI agent on 11/24/71 on a
course basically back and forth across V23, the path they told me that #305
passed right over PDX (pretty close) on and that their primary Cooper search
operation was east of Woodland (about 20 miles north of Vancouver). Only
one chopper was used. Most of these NG guys were also Sheriff's
Deputies. Only one chopper was used that night, more the next day.
Cooper was long gone, though, because they were searching the wrong area
and RH realized that later. Everyone surmised that night he jumped east of
Woodland, well not everyone but everyone that mattered. Either Cooper
allowed for some false readings, or the crew was too sensitized to the first
change in pressure (maybe from Cooper testing the airstairs but not actually
leaving). A second change in pressure might go less noticed (the actual
jump) because the crew is sensitized to the first "bump" only, or, because
some turbulence over Portland helped disguise the next pressure change.
We'll probably never know. But that is where Himmelsbach and the chopper
pilot went that night, with lights out soas not to alert Cooper on the ground.
I was wondering that myself about the "pressure bump" and the amount of cord taken, one could only wonder if he manipulated the stairs causing this, seems the crew would not take note of anything else beyond that point, you would think with the stairs dangling like that all the way to Reno the gauges would have tripped again somewhere with turbulence?
I wish 305 would have done the same as 855 by checking the cabin after they thought McCoy made his exit, I asked Blevins to ask Rataczak if the cabin door was open and only the curtains drawn? also were they able to see Portland and the matter of thick/broken clouds.
"When N467US was being salvaged, parts of the aircraft were offered to
crew members and the rear stairs to the Ariel Tavern. All declined"
I could just imagine what Coopers seat would be worth if someone would have kept that!
305 on death row http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/?action=view¤t=theplane.jpg
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