WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3

[mrseeker]

1. Nobody including the flight crew knows where he jumped. 2. The plane crossed the Columbia upstream from where the money was found. Cooper got on the plane in Portland, and that is where he had to get back to. He certainly would not have wanted to jump out over the Washington forests 50 miles away from civilization, and then spend two or three days walking, just to get to a small town, where everybody would already be looking for him. He would have waited until he saw Portland and the River, then he would have jumped. Good plan? Probably not, since it looks like he drown, and his body and most of the money ended up on the bottom of the Columbia, except for a few packets of money that got loose and floated to the Tena Bar.

They know when the aft door opened, 8:00 pm, and then the plane shifted, which they interpreted is when he jumped at 8:13. That is how they got the search area. If he had jumped later then he would have perhaps landed in the Columbia. The money falling upstream in the Columbia would mean it fell closer to Portland. So either some money was caught somehow, or he jumped with it much later. I do agree, most likely he died.

 

[KaaBoom]

They know when the aft door opened, 8:00 pm, and then the plane shifted, which they interpreted is when he jumped at 8:13. That is how they got the search area. If he had jumped later then he would have perhaps landed in the Columbia. The money falling upstream in the Columbia would mean it fell closer to Portland. So either some money was caught somehow, or he jumped with it much later. I do agree, most likely he died.

I don’t believe 8:13 is relevant. It sounds like they hit some turbulence or something at that time. The only logical place for him to jump would have been near where he got on the plane, Portland. He wouldn’t have jumped until he saw the lights of the city. Jumping into the dark forests would have been pointless. If he did that, he wouldn’t even have known where he would come down, let alone how he would get to civilization. He was dumb, but not that dumb. I expect he landed in the Columbia River near Government Island Oregon.

 

[LinasK]

I'm not of the mindset that he died in the fall, I think he got away with it. I still think it could be Rackstraw...

 

[gregjrichards]

Radar online has a story today so take it with a pinch of salt but I thought it may be of interest regardless.

"The FBI might have shuttered its probe into D.B. Cooper, declaring the case unsolved for good — but the agency knows the identity of the legendary skyjacker, and even killed him when he escaped from prison!

Those are the sensational revelations of a former top federal agent who told RadarOnline.com that Cooper was in fact a daring Mormon from Provo, Utah, named Richard McCoy Jr.

He claims McCoy, a highly decorated Vietnam War hero, pulled off a second skyjacking nearly five months after “D.B. Cooper” parachuted out of a plane over Oregon with $200,000 in ransom, some of which was later found partially buried on a riverbank."

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-ne...-fbi-revealed-secret-identity-unsolved-crime/

 

[Gardener1850]

If the money fell where he jumped, it would be closer to the Lewis River which flows in the Columbia miles north of Portland. However where it was found it would have had to flow upstream after it reached the Columbia. That can't happen. To get where it was, it would have had to stay with the aircraft for several more minutes, then fall into the columbia upstream from Tena Bar. Not sure when the plane would have passed over that area, but the money was found 20 miles southwest of the determined jump zone. Maybe he fumbled with the money and a packet fell on the stairs..then dropped later.

I re-watched the special recently and one of the possible explanations given for him not being found in the search area was that his parachute got caught up in the stairs and dragged him for a while before he got lose and fell. I could see a few bundles falling out on the stairs--it was dark and windy so he wouldn't notice. However they did tests with rubberbands from the 1970's. In their tests, no matter the weather conditions, rubberbands left outside disintegrated in 6 months. The money found on Tena Bar had rubberbands still around it--though the rubber broke when touched. The conclusion was that money could not have been there for more than a year. Could DB Cooper have been living in the area all that time and buried some of the money as a misdirect? Or could someone else have found the money, realized it was DB Coopers but didn't want to turn it in for whatever reason and re-hidden it where they thought it would be found? The story from the drug addict who predicted the money find made me think maybe his friend who claimed to be Cooper was just someone who found some of Cooper's money and reburied it. Someone with a criminal past wouldn't want to deal with turning in stolen money to the FBI, but he couldn't spend the money. Might as well use it to impress his friends with a story about being Cooper. Then again, the guy who was coming off a coke bender could have just been hallucinating the whole thing--he saw the news report and his drug-addled mind created a false memory of his friend claiming to be Cooper before the money find. Just a few theories.

 

[Gardener1850]

Radar online has a story today so take it with a pinch of salt but I thought it may be of interest regardless.

"The FBI might have shuttered its probe into D.B. Cooper, declaring the case unsolved for good — but the agency knows the identity of the legendary skyjacker, and even killed him when he escaped from prison!

Those are the sensational revelations of a former top federal agent who told RadarOnline.com that Cooper was in fact a daring Mormon from Provo, Utah, named Richard McCoy Jr.

He claims McCoy, a highly decorated Vietnam War hero, pulled off a second skyjacking nearly five months after “D.B. Cooper” parachuted out of a plane over Oregon with $200,000 in ransom, some of which was later found partially buried on a riverbank."

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-ne...-fbi-revealed-secret-identity-unsolved-crime/

McCoy is an old suspect.
He did a copy-cat hi-jacking but was immediately caught when he landed--he did not "pull it off" except for proving someone could survived such a jump.
They had McCoy's fingerprints and they would have matched the ones Cooper left all over the plane if he was Cooper.
FBI would have nothing to gain by hiding that McCoy was actually Cooper. On the contrary, they could have become heros by solving it if that was the case.

 

[Gardener1850]

I'm not of the mindset that he died in the fall, I think he got away with it. I still think it could be Rackstraw...

I can't buy it's Rackstraw because the FBI cleared him--they had his fingerprints and DNA to compare tot he evidence. That and the flight attendant being certain it wasn't him throws Rackstraw out for me.

 

[kemo]

Anyone who is interested in this case has a lot information available online. Initially, where DB bailed out was not much of a mystery. The route the aircraft was on was being carefully tracked and the exact time that various anomalies in the motion of the aircraft were carefully recorded. The pilot believed that the anomaly he felt at 8:13 was caused by the staircase springing up after DB jumped. He was an experienced pilot and believed he knew the difference between this and routine turbulence.

If the pilot was wrong or any of the other assumptions were off and the money somehow ended up in the Columbia upstream from Tena's Bar, the mystery is still not solved because one must still explain how three bundles of cash came to rest side by side each other on that stretch of beach only an inch or two under the surface. (There are conflicting reports, the three bundles may have been somewhat on top of each other, either way, they were inches from each other while there no others in the wide area searched).

DB was given a duffle bag containing 100 bundles each containing around 100 twenty dollar bills. Each was secured with a rubber band. The rubber bands that were used were the same rubber bands used by all banks in the US at the time. They were known to degrade to the point of losing most of their strength and elasticity within a year if they are exposed to the elements.

The development and erosion of beaches, and the collection and dispersal of debris along a river is a process that is not well understood. Generally, beaches and debris build up during periods of very high water or during dredging operations while they gradually erode and debris disperses during periods of stable water levels, but there are plenty of exceptions. The last dredging was done in 1974 and the last very high water had been in 1977.

Leonard Palmer, a Geology Professor was retained by the FBI to study the situation. He determined that the money was in a layer of sand, probably created by the high water of 1977. This sand was on top of a layer clay deposited by the dredging oh 1974. That would mean that the bundles of cash would have had to work their way down stream for over 6 years. The rubber bands would not have held together that long.

All and all, while I can't offer up an obvious explanation for DB or anyone else placing them there, I can't see an explanation for them to arrived at that location by a natural process.

 

[KaaBoom]

I re-watched the special recently and one of the possible explanations given for him not being found in the search area was that his parachute got caught up in the stairs and dragged him for a while before he got lose and fell. I could see a few bundles falling out on the stairs--it was dark and windy so he wouldn't notice. However they did tests with rubberbands from the 1970's. In their tests, no matter the weather conditions, rubberbands left outside disintegrated in 6 months. The money found on Tena Bar had rubberbands still around it--though the rubber broke when touched. The conclusion was that money could not have been there for more than a year. Could DB Cooper have been living in the area all that time and buried some of the money as a misdirect? Or could someone else have found the money, realized it was DB Coopers but didn't want to turn it in for whatever reason and re-hidden it where they thought it would be found? The story from the drug addict who predicted the money find made me think maybe his friend who claimed to be Cooper was just someone who found some of Cooper's money and reburied it. Someone with a criminal past wouldn't want to deal with turning in stolen money to the FBI, but he couldn't spend the money. Might as well use it to impress his friends with a story about being Cooper. Then again, the guy who was coming off a coke bender could have just been hallucinating the whole thing--he saw the news report and his drug-addled mind created a false memory of his friend claiming to be Cooper before the money find. Just a few theories.

Rubber bands left outside disintegrating in 6 months is not really relevant. Since these rubber bands were buried in the ground. The sand protected them, at least until they were uncovered. Then they disintegrated.

I have a hard time believing that Cooper would have been living in the area, unless he was wearing a really good disguise. Otherwise somebody would have recognized him. I wonder how well the FBI checked people who had arrived at the Portland airport in the week before the highjacking. I hope they checked all of the airline, car rental, and hotel records for everybody that was visiting Portland at that time. But I’m sure that was thousands of people, so maybe they couldn't.

 

[mrseeker]

I don’t believe 8:13 is relevant. It sounds like they hit some turbulence or something at that time. The only logical place for him to jump would have been near where he got on the plane, Portland. He wouldn’t have jumped until he saw the lights of the city. Jumping into the dark forests would have been pointless. If he did that, he wouldn’t even have known where he would come down, let alone how he would get to civilization. He was dumb, but not that dumb. I expect he landed in the Columbia River near Government Island Oregon.

In the latest version on history channel, they described a "pressure wave" i think as if the door had bounced at 8:13 meaning he sprung off it like a diving board. They felt the plane shift and that pressure fluctuation. I don't think that is conclusive either. Nobody snuck a peek. I think i would have risked it and looked back there. Then they could have landed in Portland within minutes. I wonder if they broadcasted that event to the ground at 8:13 or just recalled it later. If they just recalled it they might be off a few minutes. That could make a big difference in the jump zone. The tracking jets never saw a chute at all. I am not sure his planning was so great either. If he had been allowed his first route he would have been heading SE towards Yakima. I am not sure he had a plan once on the ground but hike to civilization. Maybe get to a phone booth and call an witting or unwitting accomplice.

 

[Gardener1850]

In the latest version on history channel, they described a "pressure wave" i think as if the door had bounced at 8:13 meaning he sprung off it like a diving board. They felt the plane shift and that pressure fluctuation. I don't think that is conclusive either. Nobody snuck a peek. I think i would have risked it and looked back there. Then they could have landed in Portland within minutes. I wonder if they broadcasted that event to the ground at 8:13 or just recalled it later. If they just recalled it they might be off a few minutes. That could make a big difference in the jump zone. The tracking jets never saw a chute at all. I am not sure his planning was so great either. If he had been allowed his first route he would have been heading SE towards Yakima. I am not sure he had a plan once on the ground but hike to civilization. Maybe get to a phone booth and call an witting or unwitting accomplice.

The pilot did radio to the tower to let them know the time when he suspected Cooper jumped--right after he felt the pressure wave. The FBI later did tests to determine if a person jumping from the plane would really cause a pressure wave like that. They used those tests and dropping of dummies with shoots on to guess the drop area. I'm wondering how much the wind would affect things though. They can't recreate the exact wind speed and direction even if they know the general direction the wind was blowing. Even today with GPS tracking devices authorities searching for plane crashes get it wrong by 100s or 1000's of miles.

 

[mrseeker]

The pilot did radio to the tower to let them know the time when he suspected Cooper jumped--right after he felt the pressure wave. The FBI later did tests to determine if a person jumping from the plane would really cause a pressure wave like that. They used those tests and dropping of dummies with shoots on to guess the drop area. I'm wondering how much the wind would affect things though. They can't recreate the exact wind speed and direction even if they know the general direction the wind was blowing. Even today with GPS tracking devices authorities searching for plane crashes get it wrong by 100s or 1000's of miles.

I looked at wind direction and speed for that day in Portland and it was from the SSE at 10 mph. Thanks for the additional info. I still want to know how that money got were it was found.

 

[Gardener1850]

I looked at wind direction and speed for that day in Portland and it was from the SSE at 10 mph. Thanks for the additional info. I still want to know how that money got were it was found.

I think the FBI would love to know that too, LOL! I think someone buried it there but who, when and why are all debatable. As a PP said the chances of only 3 bundles ending up on the beach right next to each other is slim in a natural drifting scenario. Nature doesn't often deposit things in neat little stacks. And no other bundles anywhere on the beach seems to indicate they were placed there rather than naturally drifted there. Seems unlikely they somehow lasted for almost a decade in the elements.

 

[KaaBoom]

In the latest version on history channel, they described a "pressure wave" i think as if the door had bounced at 8:13 meaning he sprung off it like a diving board. They felt the plane shift and that pressure fluctuation. I don't think that is conclusive either. Nobody snuck a peek. I think i would have risked it and looked back there. Then they could have landed in Portland within minutes. I wonder if they broadcasted that event to the ground at 8:13 or just recalled it later. If they just recalled it they might be off a few minutes. That could make a big difference in the jump zone. The tracking jets never saw a chute at all. I am not sure his planning was so great either. If he had been allowed his first route he would have been heading SE towards Yakima. I am not sure he had a plan once on the ground but hike to civilization. Maybe get to a phone booth and call an witting or unwitting accomplice.

If he landed in the wilderness, his chances of survival would be zero. People get lost while hiking and die all the time, and they know approximately where they are. Cooper would have had no clue where he was, or which way to walk. He would have just walked in circles until he died.

If he landed near civilization, then he would have been caught. The same way Richard Floyd McCoy was caught. Somebody would have seen him walking, or he would have to talk to somebody to get help. Everybody would know immediately who he was and would have called the police. There is no way he could have called anyone even from a phone booth without somebody seeing him. There were no phone booths in the wilderness. He would have had to come out into civilization to find a phone, and then he would have been spotted right away.

His only chance would have been to try and land within walking distance of Portland, or at least of public transit to Portland. That's why I believe he would have jumped as soon as he saw the city lights. Unfortunately for him, I think he landed in the water, which is where his remains still are today.

As for the "pressure wave”, I can’t imagine somebody jumping out of a 727 causing a plane that big to become unstable. You can’t destabilize a 727 that easily, and I agree if the crew really thought that he jumped, they would have gone back to check. Clearly they continued on to Reno because they though he was still on the plane. So whatever happened with the turbulence was a non-event.

As for the chase jets not seeing him, did they even see the steps come down? I doubt it. No one could have seen his parachute in the dark, if his parachute even deployed. He left the plane somewhere, and nobody saw him jump.

 

[KaaBoom]

The pilot did radio to the tower to let them know the time when he suspected Cooper jumped--right after he felt the pressure wave. The FBI later did tests to determine if a person jumping from the plane would really cause a pressure wave like that. They used those tests and dropping of dummies with shoots on to guess the drop area. I'm wondering how much the wind would affect things though. They can't recreate the exact wind speed and direction even if they know the general direction the wind was blowing. Even today with GPS tracking devices authorities searching for plane crashes get it wrong by 100s or 1000's of miles.

I do not believe that is correct. I believe it was the Washoe County Sheriff's deputies who searched the plane in Reno, who discovered that he had jumped. Even then they were not sure if he left the plane in Reno, so they searched the airport grounds. Clearly they thought that he was still on the plane in Reno.

The pilot’s communication with the ATC tower in Reno was "We will be landing with the airstairs down. We have not communicated with our passenger.” They said they had not communicated with their passenger, not that they did not have a passenger. Only after landing and after LE cleared the plane did they radio that he "took leave of us somewhere between Reno and Seattle.” Even then they did not know the exact location where he jumped. Only that it was somewhere between Reno and Seattle.

If you have a MMS link that says otherwise, I would be interested to see it. What witnesses might have thought or said after the fact is not really important.

http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2014/11/24/reno-retro-db-coopers-plane-landed-reno-airport/70049690/

 

[Gardener1850]

Maybe he landed in the wilderness with all the money but as he walked, trying to find his way out, the money became too heavy. How heavy would it have been, anyway? Maybe he decided to bury it in a few different locations to return to later. This wouldn't explain why the money and rubberbands survived the elements for so long but it's just another idea. If he had survival skills at all he would look for a river and try to follow it to reach a town.

Tena Bar is located at these coordinates: 45°42'38"N 122°45'33"W The drop zone appears to be just below Lake Merwin. I used this mapping tool: https://www.freemaptools.com/how-far-is-it-between.htm and those coordinates to estimate how far he would have had to walk if he fell in the area they searched. As the Crow flies, it's 31 miles from Ariel, WA to Tena Bar. It's almost 33 miles from Amboy, WA to Tena Bar. If her had a small compass on him or even if he went by the rising sun as his guide, he could have been traveling in a South West line trying to find Vancouver. The line from the suspected drop area to Tena Bar is almost dead on South West.

IDK and this could be all wrong but if I ever have a chance to visit Tena Bar, I'm taking a compass and walking 33 miles North East, looking for easy places to dig for DB's cash. :skip:

 

[Gardener1850]

I do not believe that is correct. I believe it was the Washoe County Sheriff's deputies who searched the plane in Reno, who discovered that he had jumped. Even then they were not sure if he left the plane in Reno, so they searched the airport grounds. Clearly they thought that he was still on the plane in Reno.

The pilot’s communication with the ATC tower in Reno was "We will be landing with the airstairs down. We have not communicated with our passenger.” They said they had not communicated with their passenger, not that they did not have a passenger. Only after landing and after LE cleared the plane did they radio that he "took leave of us somewhere between Reno and Seattle.” Even then they did not know the exact location where he jumped. Only that it was somewhere between Reno and Seattle.

If you have a MMS link that says otherwise, I would be interested to see it. What witnesses might have thought or said after the fact is not really important.

http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2014/11/24/reno-retro-db-coopers-plane-landed-reno-airport/70049690/

I will try to find a link but in the History Channel Special they showed an interview with the pilot and that is where I thought I recalled him saying he radioed saying something like "you may want to mark down this time . I believe our passenger just took leave of us" << Paraphrased by me. I'll look for a link though because this could just be my flawed memory.

The specials are here--only 5 days left to watch them online: http://www.history.com/shows/d-b-cooper-case-closed
Reenactment of the flight begins about 12 minutes into the first part of the Special.
7:40 PM Plane takes off from Seattle
7:42 PM He sends Tina to the cockpit and demands the after stairs are lowered
They fly for 30 minutes with the stairs down
Reenactment does not give a time but the pilot radios when he feels "Oscillations" and suspects the highjacker is doing something with the aft stairs.
I'm guessing that's where they got the 8:13 time estimate--7:42 plus 30 minutes of flying before they felt the oscillations.
Really, he could have jumped at 5 minutes into the flight IF it's possible to jump from the stairs without it being felt in the rest of the plane.

In part 2 of the special they re-interview the pilot Bill Rataczak and Tina Mucklow.
The interview with them starts about 1 hour and 20 minutes in on my DVR recording.
At 1:36 into the special the pilot talks about lowering the stairs--he makes it sound like the stairs opened mid flight verses at the start of the special where it sounds like the stairs were opened right away. So there is a discrepancy on when the stairs were opened--poor reporting by History, IMO.
Pilot says they felt the pressure change in their ears, a change on the equipment panel and a bump.
Exact quote from the pilot "I called air traffic control and I said, you might want to mark this down. I think our friend just took leave of us."
Next the pilot relates when they land and says "Now, we think he has left the plane but we don't know for certain."

So I got this from the History Channel Special and perhaps it is new info from their recent interview of the pilot.

 

[KaaBoom]

I will try to find a link but in the History Channel Special they showed an interview with the pilot and that is where I thought I recalled him saying he radioed saying something like "you may want to mark down this time . I believe our passenger just took leave of us" << Paraphrased by me. I'll look for a link though because this could just be my flawed memory.

The specials are here--only 5 days left to watch them online: http://www.history.com/shows/d-b-cooper-case-closed
Reenactment of the flight begins about 12 minutes into the first part of the Special.
7:40 PM Plane takes off from Seattle
7:42 PM He sends Tina to the cockpit and demands the after stairs are lowered
They fly for 30 minutes with the stairs down
Reenactment does not give a time but the pilot radios when he feels "Oscillations" and suspects the highjacker is doing something with the aft stairs.
I'm guessing that's where they got the 8:13 time estimate--7:42 plus 30 minutes of flying before they felt the oscillations.
Really, he could have jumped at 5 minutes into the flight IF it's possible to jump from the stairs without it being felt in the rest of the plane.

In part 2 of the special they re-interview the pilot Bill Rataczak and Tina Mucklow.
The interview with them starts about 1 hour and 20 minutes in on my DVR recording.
At 1:36 into the special the pilot talks about lowering the stairs--he makes it sound like the stairs opened mid flight verses at the start of the special where it sounds like the stairs were opened right away. So there is a discrepancy on when the stairs were opened--poor reporting by History, IMO.
Pilot says they felt the pressure change in their ears, a change on the equipment panel and a bump.
Exact quote from the pilot "I called air traffic control and I said, you might want to mark this down. I think our friend just took leave of us."
Next the pilot relates when they land and says "Now, we think he has left the plane but we don't know for certain."

So I got this from the History Channel Special and perhaps it is new info from their recent interview of the pilot.

OK, thanks. But I have more faith in the truthfulness of what was reported at the time, rather then what is said in a made for TV re-creation decades later. With all due respect that scenario makes no sense. If they knew he jumped before Portland, then why did they continue flying to Reno with the stairway down, rather then just making an emergency landing in Portland? That would be an incredibly stupid thing to do. It&#8217;s just not believable in my opinion.

 

[mrseeker]

If he landed in the wilderness, his chances of survival would be zero. People get lost while hiking and die all the time, and they know approximately where they are. Cooper would have had no clue where he was, or which way to walk. He would have just walked in circles until he died.

If he landed near civilization, then he would have been caught. The same way Richard Floyd McCoy was caught. Somebody would have seen him walking, or he would have to talk to somebody to get help. Everybody would know immediately who he was and would have called the police. There is no way he could have called anyone even from a phone booth without somebody seeing him. There were no phone booths in the wilderness. He would have had to come out into civilization to find a phone, and then he would have been spotted right away.

His only chance would have been to try and land within walking distance of Portland, or at least of public transit to Portland. That's why I believe he would have jumped as soon as he saw the city lights. Unfortunately for him, I think he landed in the water, which is where his remains still are today.

As for the "pressure wave&#8221;, I can&#8217;t imagine somebody jumping out of a 727 causing a plane that big to become unstable. You can&#8217;t destabilize a 727 that easily, and I agree if the crew really thought that he jumped, they would have gone back to check. Clearly they continued on to Reno because they though he was still on the plane. So whatever happened with the turbulence was a non-event.

As for the chase jets not seeing him, did they even see the steps come down? I doubt it. No one could have seen his parachute in the dark, if his parachute even deployed. He left the plane somewhere, and nobody saw him jump.

The pressure wave was caused by the aft door bouncing up nearly closing then popping back open, like a diving board springing. The FBI recreated this by tossing something of similar weight off the aft door during flight. It seems this is most likely when he jumped. We don't know how high he was when he pulled the chute since the trailing jets never saw a chute. If he fail where they predicted, then I suspect that area was well searched. I just wonder why that crew sat there quietly as they flew all the way to Reno. The "stewardess" seemed to have some rapport with him, and seems she could have looked back there after that pressure wave. Might have made a big difference if they landed in Portland, but maybe not.

 

[mrseeker]

OK, thanks. But I have more faith in the truthfulness of what was reported at the time, rather then what is said in a made for TV re-creation decades later. With all due respect that scenario makes no sense. If they knew he jumped before Portland, then why did they continue flying to Reno with the stairway down, rather then just making an emergency landing in Portland? That would be an incredibly stupid thing to do. It&#8217;s just not believable in my opinion.

The only thing I like about the History Channel special was the interviews with the co pilot and the flight attendant, as well as the boy and father who found the money. Seems the rest was a waste of time. I believe they are being truthful with their recollections all these years later. Not sure it added anything to what we know, but it good to have them on the public record. I agree, someone should have peeked to see if he were still back there, and then landed in Portland. They would have been on the ground in minutes rather than hours.