WA WA - Shantina Smiley, 29, & Azriel Carver, 8 (fnd deceased), Olympia, Mar 2010 - #5

[Jani]

:clap:---
Thank you for this. I couldn't agree more. By the time I finished reading your post I had forgotten that you were referring to LE. It seems like the points you mention could also be said of the media and the forums. I noticed a definite chill come over this thread as soon as word was out RS stated she was an alcoholic who relapsed.

The idea I can't get past is that all we know about the bad Shantina has come from one or two sources who may have their own agenda. The rest has come from speculation and rumor, with a little 'what I would have done..." added for good measure.

I cry a little every time I read a post from an otherwise compassionate sleuther who refers to Shantina as 'the alcoholic' or a bad mother. Going back to earlier discussions about facts vs. rumors, I believe the only person we have heard say Shantina relapsed is RS although if IRC someone mentioned a comment seen on another board from a friend. Does that make it a fact? Have we seen any proof? I know we have proof of previous contact with childrens services (or whatever it is called in WA.) but no proof that they ever found her guilty of any wrong doing except passing out and leaving Az unattended once. We know she sent Az to live with a relative after one case but I am sure I read this was done voluntarily. Do we have any other proof she was ever really a bad mother? I know Shantina was seen buying wine but did anyone see her drink any of it? Do we have any proof? I read a mention of a comment brought from another source that she had been better after getting the alcoholic and drug problem under control (if IRC it was an ex?)and next we see sleuthers speculating on whether things shown on the news as being taken from the van might be drug paraphenalia.

I have seen posts stating a belief that someone else may have been involved in this and I am leaning more that way myself because I just don't want to believe this was intentional or premeditated or bad parenting.

So, IF there IS a third party involved, that person could have asked her to pick up the wine and then drank the wine or poured it out to look like Shantina had drank half a bottle. They could have also staged the stuff found on the beach and left stuff in the car, all to promote the relapse story. The excessive tire prints could have been from another vehicle. The doors could have been left open hoping any prints/evidence would wash away with the tide. Give me long enough and I can put a spin on the rest of it too. I'm not sure if I really believe any of what I wrote in this paragraph but am just trying to keep an open mind.

I realize that every case must be completely dissected and studied from all angles but what happened to giving someone the benefit of the doubt? Does the fact that someone has or had a problem with alcohol or drugs make them less worth saving?

The other day I posted a comment about not being too hard on RS for not speaking of the alcoholism when he first reported Shantina missing or for taking her to a wine tasting event. As part of my reasoning, I told a bit of my own story with alcohol and alcoholics. Does that mean that if I go missing I am not worth looking for? Does that mean I will have people referring to me as 'the alcoholic' instead of Shannon?

SMK--Thank you for letting me get this off my chest. I have been stewing over this for days and your words gave me the kick in the rear I needed to speak up here

:applause:

Thank You !! Couldn't have said it better !!

 

[revampz]

hmm....those comments from that lady have me rattled........

she was doing some sort of program with Azriel and obviously got to know his situation and put in some sort of CHILD WElFARE complaint.......

and CRIED all the way home when he was given back to Shantina....

we know he was taken from her at some stage....

and also that weird post addressed to Candy to speak up about what she knew about Azriel and Shantina......for Azriels sake.....

I really hate saying this but I think it has only been the last year or two that Shantina had become a responsible mum.....in fact it sounds like she did complete turn around and became a different mum altogether (scouts groups etc ).......good on her for trying.... but unfortunately I think something in her new life was starting to go wrong and she started to get irresponsible again..

 

[luckymommyo2]

I dont post a lot on here, but I am a constant reader and big fan. But I would like to state one thing, getting drunk and passing out SHOULD be a crime when you are suppose to be caring for your child. The fact that she is was an alcoholic, was a strong enough reason that she should have had her kid taken away. I dont care if she meant well or that she truly did love him. She was struggling with something that she wasnt strong enough to overcome at the time. I am not going to judge her for this, because we dont know what type of things she was going through, and sometimes that is the only thing someone can do to escape. However, while going through this, it is not fair that a child has to be around. It isnt the childs fault. And you know, the fact that CPS was called, SEVERAL TIMES, shows that there were obvious signs of parenting issues. Again, this makes me mad as the case of joslynn did. If they were more concerned with the damn kid instead of the parents rights, he might still be alive. No child should have to go through any form of abuse, even if its just his mom passing out drunk! Its not right! There are too many people out there that want children and would be more than willing to take care of children in these situations. For them to be stuck in these horrible situations, its unfair. A lot of people can make children, however not all of those people should be allowed to take care of them.

 

[Calliope]

hmm....those comments from that lady have me rattled........

she was doing some sort of program with Azriel and obviously got to know his situation and put in some sort of CHILD WElFARE complaint.......

and CRIED all the way home when he was given back to Shantina....

we know he was taken from her at some stage....

and also that weird post addressed to Candy to speak up about what she knew about Azriel and Shantina......for Azriels sake.....

I really hate saying this but I think it has only been the last year or two that Shantina had become a responsible mum.....in fact it sounds like she did complete turn around and became a different mum altogether (scouts groups etc ).......good on her for trying.... but unfortunately I think something in her new life was starting to go wrong and she started to get irresponsible again..

http://faq.acf.hhs.gov/cgi-bin/acfr...mNoX3RleHQ9SGVhZCBTdGFydA!!&p_li=&p_topview=1

Children from birth to age five from families with income below the poverty line are eligible for Head Start (preschool age children) and Early Head Start services (birth to age three and pregnant women).

That would have been at least 3 years ago.

I filled out a CPS report on him and even though the situation was investigated Azriel was returned to his mother

CPS apparently felt the report was not valid?

 

[sorrell skye]

Looks like a bullet casing made into a key chain.

Thank You Allyne!!!

When I first looked at the "brass/bronze/mysterious object" my initial reaction was that it looked like an old weathered bullet cartridge. But the chrome thing on the end threw me off. I think you may be right - it very well may be a keychain bullet cartridge. People make keychains out of all kinds of things.

 

[RubyRed]

This map shows that there is a lot of shoreline to search. The van was in Olympia ( middle of map bottom) and Azril ended up over near Tacoma ,Fox island ( the oblong island).
Since I'm not local I was trying to see the area. If I am incorrect about anything let me know. I had to look at another map to figure out Fox Island.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Puget_sound_map.png

 

[luckymommyo2]

hmm....those comments from that lady have me rattled........

she was doing some sort of program with Azriel and obviously got to know his situation and put in some sort of CHILD WElFARE complaint.......

and CRIED all the way home when he was given back to Shantina....

we know he was taken from her at some stage....

and also that weird post addressed to Candy to speak up about what she knew about Azriel and Shantina......for Azriels sake.....

I really hate saying this but I think it has only been the last year or two that Shantina had become a responsible mum.....in fact it sounds like she did complete turn around and became a different mum altogether (scouts groups etc ).......good on her for trying.... but unfortunately I think something in her new life was starting to go wrong and she started to get irresponsible again..

I agree with you. Suffering from alcoholism is hard to get over, and it is a constant fight. Its not something that you overcome, and then never think about again or struggle with again. I think that she was suffering from alcoholism, on top of being a single mom, and all the stressors n life. And then she met this boyfriend. And I think that maybe having the support of this man, who some of you seem to think is involved, changed her and made her this person who was great with her child, and made the right decisions. Having that support can change someone, but I think something must have made her feel stressed again, (maybe the thought of loosing him) that made her relapse. Maybe she just couldnt handle that type of news. Maybe loosing someone who has completely turned your life around, would honestly hurt soo bad. I could see someone breaking. I honestly dont think that she killed her son on purpose, and I believe that they will find her body, drowned also. But again, thats just my personal opinion.

 

[Calliope]

I dont post a lot on here, but I am a constant reader and big fan. But I would like to state one thing, getting drunk and passing out SHOULD be a crime when you are suppose to be caring for your child. The fact that she is was an alcoholic, was a strong enough reason that she should have had her kid taken away. I dont care if she meant well or that she truly did love him. She was struggling with something that she wasnt strong enough to overcome at the time. I am not going to judge her for this, because we dont know what type of things she was going through, and sometimes that is the only thing someone can do to escape. However, while going through this, it is not fair that a child has to be around. It isnt the childs fault. And you know, the fact that CPS was called, SEVERAL TIMES, shows that there were obvious signs of parenting issues. Again, this makes me mad as the case of joslynn did. If they were more concerned with the damn kid instead of the parents rights, he might still be alive. No child should have to go through any form of abuse, even if its just his mom passing out drunk! Its not right! There are too many people out there that want children and would be more than willing to take care of children in these situations. For them to be stuck in these horrible situations, its unfair. A lot of people can make children, however not all of those people should be allowed to take care of them.

BBM.

Not always. My daughter's ex repeatedly reported her for stupid crap that were flat-out lies ("no food in the house", "baby sleeping with a rat" for example) that I KNOW were lies because they live with ME. But CPS is required to investigate every report, no matter what, so I dragged the young man from CPS into the kitchen and opened all the cabinets and frig and freezer and demanded he take stock of all the food we had in the home, and challenged him to find a damned rat in my house. This harassment kept up for a time (he even enlisted some friends to report who had never even set foot in my home much less even knew my daughter) and then ended abruptly. I suspect CPS finally told him to cease and desist.

 

[Calliope]

Thank You Allyne!!!

When I first looked at the "brass/bronze/mysterious object" my initial reaction was that it looked like an old weathered bullet cartridge. But the chrome thing on the end threw me off. I think you may be right - it very well may be a keychain bullet cartridge. People make keychains out of all kinds of things.

RS is ex-Navy and a welder. He could well have made something like that into a keychain or whatever.

 

[Calliope]

One other thing about the woman who reported to CPS.

I'm a mandated reporter, and my daughter works for CPS in Oregon. In both states, CPS does not release their findings and determination to the person who filed the report. I would suspect it's the same in WA. Just because he was not taken from his mother at that time does not mean they didn't act on her report.

 

[luckymommyo2]

BBM.

Not always. My daughter's ex repeatedly reported her for stupid crap that were flat-out lies ("no food in the house", "baby sleeping with a rat" for example) that I KNOW were lies because they live with ME. But CPS is required to investigate every report, no matter what, so I dragged the young man from CPS into the kitchen and opened all the cabinets and frig and freezer and demanded he take stock of all the food we had in the home, and challenged him to find a damned rat in my house. This harassment kept up for a time (he even enlisted some friends to report who had never even set foot in my home much less even knew my daughter) and then ended abruptly. I suspect CPS finally told him to cease and desist.

That has also happened to me with my sons dad. He called CPS and tried saying that I do drugs and my house is filthy. He hasnt been in my sons life ever, but is an idiot who likes to cause trouble. They showed up, I offered a urine test, or blood test, they looked at my house and left. However, your daughters ex and my ex had some kind of person vendetta against us. A head start teacher I wouldnt think would go to the extreme of calling CPS on her just because she disliked her. She had no reason to. And in order for CPS to really take your kid away, they need A LOT of evidence. Sometimes this evidence isnt that obvious ya know? Especially alcoholics. Im sure she cleaned up and was sober for the visit, but that doesnt mean that she was being a good mom. It just meant that she put on a good enough show for them.

 

[Calliope]

That has also happened to me with my sons dad. He called CPS and tried saying that I do drugs and my house is filthy. He hasnt been in my sons life ever, but is an idiot who likes to cause trouble. They showed up, I offered a urine test, or blood test, they looked at my house and left. However, your daughters ex and my ex had some kind of person vendetta against us. A head start teacher I wouldnt think would go to the extreme of calling CPS on her just because she disliked her. She had no reason to. And in order for CPS to really take your kid away, they need A LOT of evidence. Sometimes this evidence isnt that obvious ya know? Especially alcoholics. Im sure she cleaned up and was sober for the visit, but that doesnt mean that she was being a good mom. It just meant that she put on a good enough show for them.

You could have cleaned your house up in time for the visit, put away the drugs and I could have ditched the rat and gone on a massive grocery-shopping spree too...

I wasn't referring to the teacher, just taking issue with the comment that numerous complaints = bad parent. We really don't know what the complaints were about (even the teacher doesn't specify what she reported). We know she had him removed from her custody (voluntarily but still...) due to drinking. I would think CPS would've been extra vigilant on any further complaints.

 

[SMK]

BBM.

Not always. My daughter's ex repeatedly reported her for stupid crap that were flat-out lies ("no food in the house", "baby sleeping with a rat" for example) that I KNOW were lies because they live with ME. But CPS is required to investigate every report, no matter what, so I dragged the young man from CPS into the kitchen and opened all the cabinets and frig and freezer and demanded he take stock of all the food we had in the home, and challenged him to find a damned rat in my house. This harassment kept up for a time (he even enlisted some friends to report who had never even set foot in my home much less even knew my daughter) and then ended abruptly. I suspect CPS finally told him to cease and desist.

Yes, there was a case in my own family, with a vindictive family member making false reports ("kid sat in the car and would not come into our kid's birthday party") that CPS was required by law to investigate, and made a report of "unfounded". Note that many of Shantina's reports proved "unfounded". I had a neighbor whose sister would call CPS on her whenever they had an argument. SS may have been harassed, and the one true report was regarding her boyfriend, whom SHE later got a restraining order against.(Which was the right and responsible thing for her to do). She maintained honors grades in college, and has an intelligence about her: She was far from perfect, but gives no hint of having the "Casey Anthony" personality, totally selfish and pathological, IMO.

 

[sorrell skye]

Both my daughters have FB pages. They used to do MS, but they switched to FB awhile ago. They both set their FB pages to private (also true of their MS pages when they had them) in order to prevent friend invites from men who might try to hook up with them. They use their FB for cyber-socializing with their friends & also family members who live too far away to see physically on a regular basis.

I don't do FB or MS. I'm old school, I guess. But, IMO, people who have their pages available for the public to view are possibly looking to meet new people, new friends, etc. At least, that's what my daughters have both told me. They got sick & tired of friend invites from men so they set their pages to private a long time ago.

 

[SMK]

You could have cleaned your house up in time for the visit, put away the drugs and I could have ditched the rat and gone on a massive grocery-shopping spree too...

I wasn't referring to the teacher, just taking issue with the comment that numerous complaints = bad parent. We really don't know what the complaints were about (even the teacher doesn't specify what she reported). We know she had him removed from her custody (voluntarily but still...) due to drinking. I would think CPS would've been extra vigilant on any further complaints.

Actually, CPS comes in without warning, and no one is "tipped off": There would never be time to rearrange things for them, they make certain of that.

 

[Calliope]

Both my daughters have FB pages. They used to do MS, but they switched to FB awhile ago. They both set their FB pages to private (also true of their MS pages when they had them) in order to prevent friend invites from men who might try to hook up with them. They use their FB for cyber-socializing with their friends & also family members who live too far away to see physically on a regular basis.

I don't do FB or MS. I'm old school, I guess. But, IMO, people who have their pages available for the public to view are possibly looking to meet new people, new friends, etc. At least, that's what my daughters have both told me. They got sick & tired of friend invites from men so they set their pages to private a long time ago.

Or they could be like me and not realize it can be set to private LOL

I'm old too... I joined just to see what it was all about, but found it far too confusing.

And for the longest time I couldn't figure out who this damned "Tom" guy was....

 

[Calliope]

Actually, CPS comes in without warning, and no one is "tipped off": There would never be time to rearrange things for them, they make certain of that.

That's true, although on a couple of the harassment reports when they showed up my daughter and grandson were not home. I told them they could not come in until she was present, so we knew they were coming back... just not when.

The complaint of 'no food in the house' was considered a priority (naturally) and so they came out immediately after receiving that report. I would suspect any reports of an alcoholic parent would be the same. I doubt SS would have been given the time to sober up.

 

[SMK]

I think it can safely be said that Shantina had some real issues, and her life, and her parenting, were far from perfect at times. However, IF - and it is a big IF, but there, all the same - there was some foul play and she did not meet with an accident merely, but was the victim of something/someone else, and her son with her , what a crime it would be if this were undiscovered because she herself is "suspect". What if there had been no CPS or alcoholism in her background? Would it be clearly only an accident? ( I admit, accident is also a REAL possibility in this case).

 

[SMK]

That's true, although on a couple of the harassment reports when they showed up my daughter and grandson were not home. I told them they could not come in until she was present, so we knew they were coming back... just not when.

The complaint of 'no food in the house' was considered a priority (naturally) and so they came out immediately after receiving that report. I would suspect any reports of an alcoholic parent would be the same. I doubt SS would have been given the time to sober up.

Ah, I see, thanks for the info. BTW, when was the last CPS report on SS, and how could she become a scout leader and medical professional without this being known?

 

[Calliope]

Ah, I see, thanks for the info. BTW, when was the last CPS report on SS, and how could she become a scout leader and medical professional without this being known?

Here, CPS reports are kept private unless there are criminal charges. If she voluntarily gave him up and went through treatment, then she wouldn't have a record? That's my guess. I do know for certain that scouts put all adults through background and criminal checks.