Was a stun gun used in the crime or not

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

Any speculation about a stun gun should remain as such.

UKGuy,

If it looks like a duck; waddles like a duck; and quacks like a duck; it ain't two diamond cluster rings on Patsy's fingers.

JMO

 

[Camper]

Though I have raised eight children through lumps, bumps and assorted abrasive injuries, I am having a tech problem with how the ME explained the injuries to her body.

Once a child has injured themselves, they typically holler and sob or cry if it hurts, they immediately begin to investigate the problem. Now then to have injuries on one side of the body, then to deliberately repeat the offense on an opposite side of their body, seems quite doubtful to me.

So therefore, the injuries appearing on her body seem to have been delivered to JonBenet against her will, imop.

IF I were a ME, which as a mother, we are often called upon to diagnose and observe injuries to our childrens bodies and determine, first aid, or medical attention that might be required.

To have two small and dang near perfectly round injuries on two different parts of the same body, raise my curiosity about just HOW could that happen. Even IF IF the drooling perp had a cattle prod, to evenly distribute the injuries so delicately would take a professional COWBOY. Imop it didn't happen with any type of tool that one could poke a small child with, in two different and diverse locations of the body, and WHY just those two locations, why not all over her like a case of the measles. To leave an injury of the sort on her body would seem to me have to have been delivered by a HOT tool of some sort.

In all of our discussions with the Police officers ex wife on the forum here, I don't recall us asking if the shot by the stun gun was heated, or just high pressure, or just the electrical charge. One of my sons put a metal bobby pin into an electrical outlet when about 3 years old, but it left black marks on his little fingers. He is now a Sergeant in sherifs department.

IF the police officers ex wife is still reading here, did the stun gun leave black marks or burn marks on his body? I assume that the stun gun used on the officers for demonstration and education, through their uniforms, not just bare skin.

I am leaning to stun gun usage, until someone produces a better explanation of HOW the injuries to little JonBenet happened.

I certainly don't think it is silly to think it so.



.

 

[BlueCrab]

IF the police officers ex wife is still reading here, did the stun gun leave black marks or burn marks on his body? I assume that the stun gun used on the officers for demonstration and education, through their uniforms, not just bare skin.

I am leaning to stun gun usage, until someone produces a better explanation of HOW the injuries to little JonBenet happened.

Camper,

The police used an Air Taser brand stun gun with darts for the demonstration you refer to above. The darts, which can be shot from 15 or 20 feet away, leave a different kind of burn on the body than does a conventional hand-held stun gun. The conventional stun gun must be pressed up against the victim so the twin prongs on it can complete the electrical circuit. IMO JonBenet was shocked by someone using a conventional Taser brand stun gun, leaving the twin marks on the skin from the twin prongs of the stun gun.

JMO

 

[Britt]

Here's the 48 Hours article:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/01/48hours/main523887.shtml

Excerpt:
But the Boulder police are relying on another opinion, that of Dr. Werner Spitz. He thinks that pebbles or rocks on the floor caused the marks. Spitz has worked as a forensic pathologist in Michigan for nearly 50 years.

“A stun gun. Stun gun injury is an electrical burn, and these do not look like electrical burns,” he says. Spitz believes the large, dark mark on JonBenet’s face was left by a snap on a piece of clothing.

IMO, Wolfmarsgirl's ring theory is right on the money and she has the research to prove it. Since the autopsy report calls the marks "abrasions," the ring theory makes a lot more sense than the stun gun theory.

 

[UKGuy]

Here's the 48 Hours article:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/01/48hours/main523887.shtml

Excerpt:
But the Boulder police are relying on another opinion, that of Dr. Werner Spitz. He thinks that pebbles or rocks on the floor caused the marks. Spitz has worked as a forensic pathologist in Michigan for nearly 50 years.

“A stun gun. Stun gun injury is an electrical burn, and these do not look like electrical burns,” he says. Spitz believes the large, dark mark on JonBenet’s face was left by a snap on a piece of clothing.

IMO, Wolfmarsgirl's ring theory is right on the money and she has the research to prove it. Since the autopsy report calls the marks "abrasions," the ring theory makes a lot more sense than the stun gun theory.

Britt,
Thank you.

Thats three credible explanations, stun gun, pebbles, or ring. the last one has some empirical research also, which is impressive, given the nature of our medium.

Personally I would assume pebbles, then move onto patsy's ring, and lastly the stun gun. Simply because knowing it was a stun gun does not seem to add or subtract to any whodunnit.

 

[BlueCrab]

Here's the 48 Hours article:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/01/48hours/main523887.shtml

Excerpt:
But the Boulder police are relying on another opinion, that of Dr. Werner Spitz. He thinks that pebbles or rocks on the floor caused the marks. Spitz has worked as a forensic pathologist in Michigan for nearly 50 years.

?A stun gun. Stun gun injury is an electrical burn, and these do not look like electrical burns,? he says. Spitz believes the large, dark mark on JonBenet?s face was left by a snap on a piece of clothing.

IMO, Wolfmarsgirl's ring theory is right on the money and she has the research to prove it. Since the autopsy report calls the marks "abrasions," the ring theory makes a lot more sense than the stun gun theory.

Britt,

I know of no pathologist who agrees with Spitz that the marks on JonBenet were from pebbles and a clothing snap. If that's true, where are the pebbles and the clothing snap? And Spitz apparently had a hidden agenda, stating for instance, against the opinions of almost all other pathologists, that there was no chronic injuries to JonBenet's vagina (PMPT pb, pg 563).

Dr. John Meyer, after reviewing additional photos and information, changed his autopsy analysis of the marks on JonBenet from being abrasions to being consistent with injuries produced by a stun gun (PMPT pb, pg 431).

JMO

 

[Jayelles]

Britt,

I know of no pathologist who agrees with Spitz that the marks on JonBenet were from pebbles and a clothing snap.

Do you know of any pathologist who has been ASKED to comment on Spitz's theory?

With regard to Spitz, I am interested more in the opinion of Dr Robert Stratbucker who is the most experienced and distinguished of the experts who have commented upon the stun gun theory. Stratbucker has 20+ years worth of expertise on the medical effects of stunguns - such that he was approached by Taser to work as a consultant for them in clinical tests. He has done tests on pigs, dogs and humans and his reports state that he photographed the injuries. As medical director for Taser, he will also be familiar with 70 odd cases where a Taser weapon was implicated in a death. I would imagine that in these cases, the injuries would have been photographed post-mortem. I think he cannot possibly be dismissed as an expert - regardless of his ties to Taser. Dismissing his medical expertise on the grounds that he has a "conflict of interest" is silly. The man is a professional. Taser is just a small part of his income, he makes the bulk of it in his capacity of expert witness (in many states). He says that he does not believe the marks were caused by a stungun.

 

[gaia]

Just wish that expert would step up and declare the theory about JB is BOGUS.

 

[Camper]

Thank you BlueCrab.

Now then as I have posted ad nauseum, even IF IF IF it were determined by exhumation that a stun gun had in fact been used, that still leaves us all back at square one. What you have then is everyone on the planet that owned a taser stun gun.

Exhumation would indeed take the scarf that John placed in the casket and perhaps could tie it to the fibres left on JonBenets body, hence John was 'to give' the scarf to JonBenet, (as I recall being stated in DOI, PR states that John 'had' purchased a lovely new scarf for JonBenet)in other words it 'appears' that the scarf had not yet been given to JonBenet (OR purchased after her death), therefore she had never seen or touched it. Now then you have something IF the IF IF IF's work out.




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[BlueCrab]

Just wish that expert would step up and declare the theory about JB is BOGUS.

gaia,

It'll never happen. Dr. Robert Stratbucker has been bought and paid for by Air Taser. The last thing Air Taser wants to spread around is that JonBenet may have been stungunned by a weapon made by Air Taser. Air Taser outrageously lies its *advertiser censored* off about their stun gun, even claiming it doesn't leave any marks on the victim's skin, despite clear evidence to the contrary.

Stratbucker lost all credibility as a witness when he was shredded by Lin Wood during a deposition in the Ramseys v Steve Thomas civil suit (edited to say it may have been the Wolf v Ramsey lawsuit).

JMO

 

[gaia]

Really, BlueCrab? What about all those "expert" lie-detector dudes John and Patsy HIRED and PAID FOR to proclaim their innocence? PULLLLLLLlEZZZZZEEEEE! Put it this way, if I'm supposed to believe the Rams are innocent per their lie-detector results, why can't the good Doc be honestly producing evidence and judgment about the taser marks on JB? I guess the real truth is I don't believe those marks were from a taser and you do. I also don't believe in the lie-detector test results, but perhaps you do.

Nuff said. :hand:

 

[BlueCrab]

Really, BlueCrab? What about all those "expert" lie-detector dudes John and Patsy HIRED and PAID FOR to proclaim their innocence? PULLLLLLLlEZZZZZEEEEE! Put it this way, if I'm supposed to believe the Rams are innocent per their lie-detector results, why can't the good Doc be honestly producing evidence and judgment about the taser marks on JB? I guess the real truth is I don't believe those marks were from a taser and you do. I also don't believe in the lie-detector test results, but perhaps you do.

Nuff said. :hand:

gaia,

Nice try, but please keep on topic (the stun gun injuries and Dr. Robert Stratbucker).

As I remember it now, and it was the Wolf v Ramsey case, Stratbucker was discredited so badly by Lin Wood during that deposition that Darnay Hoffman, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DEPOSITION, withdrew Stratbucker as a witness.

All of the credible forensic pathologists whom I'm aware agree that the marks on JonBenet are, in fact, consistent with the injuries that a stun gun would produce.

I believe the marks on JonBenet are from a stun gun because all of the credible experts that I know of say they likely are, not because I say they likely are.

JMO

 

[Jayelles]

gaia,

Nice try, but please keep on topic (the stun gun injuries and Dr. Robert Stratbucker).

As I remember it now, and it was the Wolf v Ramsey case, Stratbucker was discredited so badly by Lin Wood during that deposition that Darnay Hoffman, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DEPOSITION, withdrew Stratbucker as a witness.

All of the credible forensic pathologists whom I'm aware agree that the marks on JonBenet are, in fact, consistent with the injuries that a stun gun would produce.

I believe the marks on JonBenet are from a stun gun because all of the credible experts that I know of say they likely are, not because I say they likely are.

JMO

Bluecrab, first of all, Lin Wood did not destroy Dr Stratbucker's reputation in that deposition. Dr Stratbucker's reputation is built upon decades of research of the medical effects of stunguns. Lin Wood didn't ask him about that. Nor did he present any evidence to suggest that Dr Stratbucker had been wrong in any of his findings. Instead, he launched a dirty tricks assault on Dr Stratbucker in an effort to discredit his integrity with regard to his professional loyalties.

Now, you've obviously read the deposition in which case you will be aware of the FACT that Dr Stratbucker earned a retainer of $1,000 per month from Taser - $12,000 per annum. OTOH, his earnings from work as an expert witness amounted to many times that (at least $75,000). He appears to make the bulk his living on his reputation as a credible expert! he is not likely to jeopardise that for $1,000 per month!

I have been researching the credentials of those who have voiced an opinion on the stungun and quite frankly, the other pale in comparison to Robert Stratbucker. He is by far the most distinguished and experienced expert on stunguns. In the case of Gerald Boggs whom we know WAS stungunned, the coroner who performed his first autopsy FAILED to recognise the marks as stungun burns and recorded them incorrectly as "abrasions". Little has been written about this first autopsy on the forums, however, it appears that the coroner in question was none other than Dr Michael Doberson!

Darnay withdrew Stratbucker? Yes he did but we haven't been told why. If you read the deposition just before that break, Lin Wood threw in his nastiest insult of all against the doctor. Unless you have proof to the contrary, I have a suspicion that the Dr may have walked out in disgust at the treatment he received by Lin Wood. I would dearly love to know what Robert Stratbucker would say about that incident.

 

[BlueCrab]

Bluecrab, first of all, Lin Wood did not destroy Dr Stratbucker's reputation in that deposition. Dr Stratbucker's reputation is built upon decades of research of the medical effects of stunguns. Lin Wood didn't ask him about that. Nor did he present any evidence to suggest that Dr Stratbucker had been wrong in any of his findings. Instead, he launched a dirty tricks assault on Dr Stratbucker in an effort to discredit his integrity with regard to his professional loyalties.

Now, you've obviously read the deposition in which case you will be aware of the FACT that Dr Stratbucker earned a retainer of $1,000 per month from Taser - $12,000 per annum. OTOH, his earnings from work as an expert witness amounted to many times that (at least $75,000). He appears to make the bulk his living on his reputation as a credible expert! he is not likely to jeopardise that for $1,000 per month!

I have been researching the credentials of those who have voiced an opinion on the stungun and quite frankly, the other pale in comparison to Robert Stratbucker. He is by far the most distinguished and experienced expert on stunguns. In the case of Gerald Boggs whom we know WAS stungunned, the coroner who performed his first autopsy FAILED to recognise the marks as stungun burns and recorded them incorrectly as "abrasions". Little has been written about this first autopsy on the forums, however, it appears that the coroner in question was none other than Dr Michael Doberson!

Darnay withdrew Stratbucker? Yes he did but we haven't been told why. If you read the deposition just before that break, Lin Wood threw in his nastiest insult of all against the doctor. Unless you have proof to the contrary, I have a suspicion that the Dr may have walked out in disgust at the treatment he received by Lin Wood. I would dearly love to know what Robert Stratbucker would say about that incident.

Jayelles,

Lin Wood didn't pull any dirty tricks nor insult Robert Stratbucker in the Wolf v Ramsey deposition. Wood clearly impeached Stratbucker for concealing his involvement with Air Taser while posing as a neutral expert to the court on the issue of stun guns, particularly Air Tasers.

Stratbrucker had a lot more than the $1,000 per month retainer fee from Air Taser. He had a contract with Air Taser, salary undisclosed, to do confidential work for the Department of Defense, U.S. Marine Corps. Stratbucker was also appointed Medical Director for Air Taser. And he was to be paid $125 per hour for time clocked while working for Air Taser.

Stratbucker and Air Taser make a good team -- they both have a vested interest in and know how to hide the truth about Air Tasers so as not to damage the reputation of Air Taser International.

The thing that scares the hell put of Air Taser International is the possibility that JonBenet was murdered by a Taser brand stun gun. A prolonged shock from a stun gun on a 45-pound 6-year-old girl would have likely paralyzed JonBenet's respiratory muscles, causing death by asphyxiation. JonBenet's autopsy report listed cause of death as asphyxiation.

JMO

 

[mihaff]

The thing that scares the hell put of Air Taser International is the possibility that JonBenet was murdered by a Taser brand stun gun. A prolonged shock from a stun gun on a 45-pound 6-year-old girl would have likely paralyzed JonBenet's respiratory muscles, causing death by asphyxiation. JonBenet's autopsy report listed cause of death as asphyxiation.

JMO

Thats ridiculous. Noone dies from tasers or stun guns unless they are under the influence of some drugs or have an underlying medical condition. It does not paralyze breathing.

 

[BlueCrab]

Thats ridiculous. Noone dies from tasers or stun guns unless they are under the influence of some drugs or have an underlying medical condition. It does not paralyze breathing.

Mihaff,

You've been reading too much Air Taser propaganda. Stun guns do paralyze breathing, and do kill. Police departments like stun guns and therefore put pressure on coroners and medical examiners to find another cause of death other than from the stun gun which had just been used on a victim -- and likely killed him.

The problem appears to be the amount of time the trigger is held when a stun gun is used. One to five seconds should be the range, depending on the size of the individual the cop is trying to get under control. Ten seconds or more can be fatal regardless of size. But warnings from experts that the improper use of stun guns can be lethal seem to go unheeded. For instance, in 1999:

Terrence Allen, former medical examiner for the the Los Angeles and San Francisco coroners' offices: "As pathologists, we should warn law-enforcement agencies that the Taser can cause death." and,

Dr. Sara Redding and Dr. Ronald Kornblum, chief medical examiner in Los Angeles in an article: "The Taser has been used several thousand times by the Los Angeles police department. There have been 16 deaths associated with its use in L.A. County."

The police, of course, have been trained to use the Taser properly. Their victims are usually combative males who, on the average, probably weigh around 180 pounds. Yet there are fatal encounters.

Air Taser literature implies the 50,000-volt gun is not lethal when the weapon is USED AS DIRECTED on a healthy ADULT. But it doesn't say what would happen if a Taser stun gun is used on a little 45-pound girl by someone who had not been trained in its use.

There is indeed a possibility the JonBenet murder weapon was a Taser brand stun gun and the strangulation and bash in the head was staging to coverup the real cause of death. It would sure explain how JonBenet died by strangulation without having any injuries to the neck muscles nor any broken bones in the neck.

JMO

 

[gaia]

Let's assume you are right about Tasers. John had a VCR about tasers. Think he stunned her? Why? Why would he need to use it? If he didn't who did? Burke? Patsy? Intruder? Why would an intruder use it? Obvious answer is to make her comply, but a hand over the mouth and a strong adult could do that. I've read taser victims often make a lot of noise before being subdued. Yes, the neighbor heard a scream. I still wonder how those parents didn't hear it. Yes, supposedly a test revealed the Ram's bedroom was situated on another floor and they could not have heard it, but it's still weird the neighbor could hear it. Seems a little dubious to me. Just thinking out loud. Little jumbled.

 

[BlueCrab]

Let's assume you are right about Tasers. John had a VCR about tasers. Think he stunned her? Why? Why would he need to use it? If he didn't who did? Burke? Patsy? Intruder? Why would an intruder use it? Obvious answer is to make her comply, but a hand over the mouth and a strong adult could do that. I've read taser victims often make a lot of noise before being subdued. Yes, the neighbor heard a scream. I still wonder how those parents didn't hear it. Yes, supposedly a test revealed the Ram's bedroom was situated on another floor and they could not have heard it, but it's still weird the neighbor could hear it. Seems a little dubious to me. Just thinking out loud. Little jumbled.

gaia,

Who would need a stun gun to control a little 6 year-old girl? How about a little 9 year-old boy?

Yes, the neighbor across the street, Melody Stanton, heard JonBenet's scream sometime around midnight to 2 A.M. because she slept with the bedroom window slightly open. Guess who else slept with their bedroom window open? Yep, you guessed it. John and Patsy Ramsey.

JMO

 

[UKGuy]

If I had been that 9-year old boy I would have asked my older friends for some Rohypnol (pill form) or some GHB (Gamma Hydroxybutyrate, liquid form) and dropped it in JonBenets Coke.

Here is a current case involving the alleged use of a stun gun, and the injuries are in a similar location to JonBenet's and the experts Robert A. Stratbucker and Dr. Michael J. Dobersen both agree on its use being consistent with the marks found on the corpse!

http://www.easthamptonstar.com/20041202/news1.htm
QUOTE:
"
In the final two days of the prosecution's case last week, Assistant District Attorney Janet Albertson focused on specific wounds Mr. Ammon received on his back, legs, and neck. Two expert witnesses testified that photographs of Mr. Ammon's corpse showed that the source of the wounds was a stun gun, which enables its user to temporarily subdue someone. The guns are not lethal in and of themselves.

.
.
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Robert A. Stratbucker, medical director for Taser International, testified that human skin responds to stun guns in "fairly unique ways." The guns leave physically distinct "punctate" wounds on the skin's surface, he said. In normal circumstances, the wounds heal fully without leaving a permanent scar or mark. However, if the victim dies before the body has the chance to heal, the wounds remain distinctly visible.

Using photographs of Mr. Ammon's corpse taken at the crime scene and in the autopsy lab, Dr. Stratbucker testified that Mr. Ammon had wounds on his back, neck, and legs that were "consistent" with the wounds a Taser 34000 would cause. "No other circumstance" could have created such marks, he said.

Another witness, Dr. Michael J. Dobersen, the coroner of Arapaho County, Colo., agreed with Dr. Stratbucker's conclusions. Dr. Dobersen has served as an expert witness on stun gun injuries in about a half-dozen cases. He worked with Dr. Stratbucker on prior occasions although they publicly disagreed in the JonBenet Ramsey case.
"

 

[TLynn]

Does anyone remember the photo(s) that showed a scarf in the bg - I believe it was laying on a tablestand (in the hallway)...but, it was never recovered.