Was BR involved? #2

[Global Justice Ops]

Global Justice Ops,
Is that black Ops, as in disinformation?


So we can educate people such as yourself that other like minded citizens tasked with deciding what roles the Ramsey's played in the death of JonBenet adjudged they were negligent wrt the care of JonBenet, thus leading to her death.


This is because there is zero forensic evidence linking to anyone outside of the Ramsey household. Yet all three Ramsey's resident in the house that fateful night are directly linked by forensic evidence to the wine-cellar crime-scene!


An example of unpublished evidence is which Ramsey touch-dna was found on JonBenet's clothing or body and precisely where i.e. legs, torso, size-12's, longjohns, etc.

The intruder is a chimera concocted by the Ramsey's and Lou Smit, such a mythical person does not exist, not outside fairy tales, or Greek Myths at least. Since when did you last read about the kidnapper who abducted his victim but left the victim behind, after dallying to perform some perverse acts on a dying body, before fleeing into the night, leaving a calling card in the form of a ransom note, and zero forensic evidence to connect him to the crime?

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Thanks for replying to me and completely ignoring the fact that I pointed out that TWO legal authorities whose powers supersede a Grand Jury cleared the Ramseys, a federal judge and the district attorney. So you say there is forensic evidence linking the Ramseys to the crime scene? Let’s hear it.

That example of unpublished DNA is farce, Kolar had direct access to ALL the case files and in his book he explained where the different DNAs, unknown and known, were located.

Say whatever you want about Detective Smit, the man was one of the most competent violent homicide investigators known. Kolar acknowledged this despite being a RDI proponent.

RDI proponents rely on the verdict of a body of elected civilians who had no expertise or background in forensics, criminology, etc. And they berate experienced professionals like Detective Smit.

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks for replying to me and completely ignoring the fact that I pointed out that TWO legal authorities whose powers supersede a Grand Jury cleared the Ramseys, a federal judge and the district attorney. So you say there is forensic evidence linking the Ramseys to the crime scene? Let’s hear it.

That example of unpublished DNA is farce, Kolar had direct access to ALL the case files and in his book he explained where the different DNAs, unknown and known, were located.

Say whatever you want about Detective Smit, the man was one of the most competent violent homicide investigators known. Kolar acknowledged this despite being a RDI proponent.

RDI proponents rely on the verdict of a body of elected civilians who had no expertise or background in forensics, criminology, etc. And they berate experienced professionals like Detective Smit.

Global Justice Ops,

Thanks for replying to me and completely ignoring the fact that I pointed out that TWO legal authorities whose powers supersede a Grand Jury cleared the Ramseys, a federal judge and the district attorney.

The Ramsey's cannot be cleared, only a jury verdict can do this. The resident Ramsey's remain prime suspects, there is no forensic evidence linking to anyone else outside the Ramsey household.

So you say there is forensic evidence linking the Ramseys to the crime scene? Let’s hear it.

BR's touch-dna was found on the Pink Barbie Nightgown dumped into the wine-cellar, this must be a confounding factor in any IDI theory. Patsy Ramsey's fibers are to be found embedded into the knotting on the ligature/paintbrush, sticky side of the tape placed over JonBenet's mouth, and in the paint-tote. Fibers from John Ramsey's expensive, imported Israeli shirt was found inside the size-12's which were clean on JonBenet after she was assaulted and whacked on the head, most likely by JR! Secondary transfer cannot explain away all this evidence since it should not be available at a crime-scene in which, allegedly, the Ramsey's did not participate!

That example of unpublished DNA is farce, Kolar had direct access to ALL the case files and in his book he explained where the different DNAs, unknown and known, were located.

Sure but that is not the same as publishing all the available dna results, i.e. Ramsey depositions, either on JonBenet's body or her clothing. This has not been done!

Say whatever you want about Detective Smit, the man was one of the most competent violent homicide investigators known. Kolar acknowledged this despite being a RDI proponent.

Competency is no guarantor of ethics. Smit prayed with the Ramseys and promoted an IDI theory that was provably false, yet he persisted, including publishing appropriated BPD evidential material to backup his case. Smit allowed himself to be used by the Ramsey's, demonstrating a preference for the Ramsey's millionare status, their pseudo Christian beliefs, or his pay cheque, or all of the above?

RDI proponents rely on the verdict of a body of elected civilians who had no expertise or background in forensics, criminology, etc. And they berate experienced professionals like Detective Smit.

Here at WS we rely on the evidence not ad hominem remarks. Bear in mind that all the documents viewed by the elected civilians have not been made public, so how can you criticise their decision to consider the Ramsey's culpable for the death of JonBenet by negligence? The GJ decision to indict the parents when added to the forensic evidence they left behind in the wine-cellar is simply another rung in the ladder, directly implicating them in the death of their dughter.


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[Global Justice Ops]

Global Justice Ops,

The Ramsey's cannot be cleared, only a jury verdict can do this. The resident Ramsey's remain prime suspects, there is no forensic evidence linking to anyone else outside the Ramsey household.


BR's touch-dna was found on the Pink Barbie Nightgown dumped into the wine-cellar, this must be a confounding factor in any IDI theory. Patsy Ramsey's fibers are to be found embedded into the knotting on the ligature/paintbrush, sticky side of the tape placed over JonBenet's mouth, and in the paint-tote. Fibers from John Ramsey's expensive, imported Israeli shirt was found inside the size-12's which were clean on JonBenet after she was assaulted and whacked on the head, most likely by JR! Secondary transfer cannot explain away all this evidence since it should not be available at a crime-scene in which, allegedly, the Ramsey's did not participate!


Sure but that is not the same as publishing all the available dna results, i.e. Ramsey depositions, either on JonBenet's body or her clothing. This has not been done!


Competency is no guarantor of ethics. Smit prayed with the Ramseys and promoted an IDI theory that was provably false, yet he persisted, including publishing appropriated BPD evidential material to backup his case. Smit allowed himself to be used by the Ramsey's, demonstrating a preference for the Ramsey's millionare status, their pseudo Christian beliefs, or his pay cheque, or all of the above?



Here at WS we rely on the evidence not ad hominem remarks. Bear in mind that all the documents viewed by the elected civilians have not been made public, so how can you criticise their decision to consider the Ramsey's culpable for the death of JonBenet by negligence? The GJ decision to indict the parents when added to the forensic evidence they left behind in the wine-cellar is simply another rung in the ladder, directly implicating them in the death of their dughter.


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Only a jury verdict can clear people? So by that logic everyone in the case remains a suspect. Even the people your WS top brass deem innocent.

The Whites were cleared by the D.A. so they are innocent, right? But when the Ramseys get cleared by the same authority they are STILL suspects and the D.A. at the time was incompetent? That IS a DOUBLE STANDARD.

I want citation for your claims about the fiber evidence, before I address it.

I completely agree competency is not a guarantee of ethics. Competency alone is not a guarantee in this case. There were mistakes made on both sides.

I also understand the majority of the case files are not public, so we can’t make a true decision but keep in mind there are people who did have direct, and full access to the case files who went on to publicly present their case, so we do have a good understanding of the key evidence.

 

[DeeDee249]

Let me ask you a question. Why do people who believe the Ramseys did it always refer to the Grand Jury’s decision to indict BUT IGNORE the fact that a United States Federal Judge ruled that there is NO EVIDENCE that the Ramsey family did it? On top of that Boulder’s DA cleared them of any suspicion.

What I am saying is that there is a tendency in this case to refute all evidence if it implicates an intruder and not the Ramseys.

The public is not privy to all evidence. You are correct. BUT the two lead investigators on both sides resigned and went on to publicly present their cases, Steve Thomas and Lou Smit. So we have a very good understanding what evidence both sides were pushing.

There is no real evidence, if there had been then the Ramseys would be in jail. Alex Hunter knew there was no case against them.

That's easy. Because the judge based her decision on evidence ONLY presented by the defense lawyers. There was a lot of missing information.

 

[Mama2JML]

That's easy. Because the judge based her decision on evidence ONLY presented by the defense lawyers. There was a lot of missing information.

...as was the case with the prosecution & the GJ.

 

[andreww]

I've been reading through PRs police interview and this question really struck me...

TT: Okay. What about any injuries, any major injuries, any major injuries to JonBenet?
PR: She, Burke hit her in the face with a gulf club one time, and the leg…

I'd never heard this before! They never perused it by asking follow up questions. Does anybody know exactly when that incident happened?

 

[andreww]

Let me ask you a question. Why do people who believe the Ramseys did it always refer to the Grand Jury’s decision to indict BUT IGNORE the fact that a United States Federal Judge ruled that there is NO EVIDENCE that the Ramsey family did it? On top of that Boulder’s DA cleared them of any suspicion.

What I am saying is that there is a tendency in this case to refute all evidence if it implicates an intruder and not the Ramseys.

The public is not privy to all evidence. You are correct. BUT the two lead investigators on both sides resigned and went on to publicly present their cases, Steve Thomas and Lou Smit. So we have a very good understanding what evidence both sides were pushing.

There is no real evidence, if there had been then the Ramseys would be in jail. Alex Hunter knew there was no case against them.

I think a lot of factors came in to play. From what I gather there was a lot of pressure not to pursue the Ramseys coming from above. The Ramsey's and their lawyers were well connected politically.

 

[Mama2JML]

I've been reading through PRs police interview and this question really struck me...



I'd never heard this before! They never perused it by asking follow up questions. Does anybody know exactly when that incident happened?

January of 1994. JonBenét was 3 & Burke was 6.
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682451/Brief Chronology


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[sloane7777]

January of 1994. JonBenét was 3 & Burke was 6.
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682451/Brief Chronology


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Are you talking about the golf club?

 

[Mama2JML]

Are you talking about the golf club?

Yes.


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[DeeDee249]

I've been reading through PRs police interview and this question really struck me...



I'd never heard this before! They never perused it by asking follow up questions. Does anybody know exactly when that incident happened?

This happened a few years before she died. It was said to be an accident. They brought JB to the hospital, where Patsy requested a plastic surgeon so she wouldn't have a scar. (I'd have done the same thing).

 

[sloane7777]

I know this is a little narrow minded but the golf club incident, well really ,The way she was struck, really stuck out to me and sealed my thoughts , I think it was someones flashlight blow to the head and the rest is cover up, I just dont think the adults would cover for each other.

 

[andreww]

This happened a few years before she died. It was said to be an accident. They brought JB to the hospital, where Patsy requested a plastic surgeon so she wouldn't have a scar. (I'd have done the same thing).

Accident? If he hit her in the head, maybe, but she says there was a leg injury as well. That would indicate two blows. How could that be an accident?


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[andreww]

I know this is a little narrow minded but the golf club incident, well really ,The way she was struck, really stuck out to me and sealed my thoughts , I think it was someones flashlight blow to the head and the rest is cover up, I just dont think the adults would cover for each other.

I'm still not sold on the flashlight being the murder weapon. There was so much evidence that was disposed of, and I believe the weapon, whatever it was, was part of that. Articles used in the murder (paintbrush, tape, rope) are all gone. Articles used in the coverup (paper, sharpie, flashlight) are still there.


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[sloane7777]

Im not dead set on the wepon being a flashlight but I think thats what happened

 

[andreww]

I think it's a possibility, but I also think that there are a lot of people that want to think that simply because they don't want to believe a parent could act that brutally toward their ow child. The golf club incident shows exactly the type of wound you'd expect when a young child hits another with an object. No stitches were even required. At 9, I'd expect that BR would probably be able to hit her hard enough to break the skin, but to crush her skull? I don't see it.


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[Alchemist]

At 9, I'd expect that BR would probably be able to hit her hard enough to break the skin, but to crush her skull? I don't see it.


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I never really thought about it, but It would take a very hard hit to crush her skull the way it was. What does everyone think about the possibility that she fell (or was pushed) off of something high and hit her head? It was a three story house, probably a few places it could have happened.

 

[UKGuy]

I never really thought about it, but It would take a very hard hit to crush her skull the way it was. What does everyone think about the possibility that she fell (or was pushed) off of something high and hit her head? It was a three story house, probably a few places it could have happened.

Alchemist,
I think there was weights in her bedroom, dumbell, barbell, whatever the phrase is? Dropping that on her head would cause the same type of injury, could BR lift it up, possibly? Its the weight of the object, or its mass that matters, dropped from a low height requires more mass, dropped from a higher height allows for less mass or weight.

Currently I reckon JonBenet's head injury was a failed attempt at staging her death. Whacking JonBenet on the head with such force as a response to her calling out, seems extreme, if the assailant was close enough to deliver a head blow then a hand over the mouth could also be accomplished.

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[FreeSafety36]

Just kind of browsing through the thread here, and I must say, we here at WS are extremely blessed to have so many DNA experts here, willing to take time out of their day and post on an internet message board about a nearly eighteen-year-old cold case. Not only that, but their level of expertise is so great, they don't even need to personally inspect the DNA to form opinions on it! Seriously, how cool is that?!

A layman like myself, I'm stuck spending a few hours researching and reading about DNA and DNA testing on other websites to the point that I understand just enough to understand I don't really know anything about it. Of course, in such a highly specialized field, in retrospect, it was foolish of me to try to believe that a few hours of internet research could give me even a basic level of understanding about the processes involved; so I'm especially grateful for all the experts who have imparted their knowledge here.

I would like to make one suggestion, though, and that is that you guys should all send in your findings on the DNA evidence to whichever LE agency handles this cold case. I'm sure they would be every bit as grateful for it as I am. Who knows, they might even decide to hire some experts of their own.

 

[Alchemist]

Currently I reckon JonBenet's head injury was a failed attempt at staging her death. Whacking JonBenet on the head with such force as a response to her calling out, seems extreme, if the assailant was close enough to deliver a head blow then a hand over the mouth could also be accomplished.

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Do we know if she was strangled first. then hit or not? My thinking is, that if it was accident that was covered up, the accident couldn't have been the garrote. So if the garrote was first I find an accident to be unlikely.