Was BR involved? #2

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An accident?like she fell into the garote and accidentally strangled herself trying to get up? I think once he found her he KNEW someone had murdered her and his wife had written a ridiculous RN to try to sell a ridiculous "kidnapping". It doesn't take a genius to figure out that either she or the only other person in the house was responsible for it.

I was talking about after JR read the ransom note and before he may have first found JBR's body (10 A.M.). If JR wasn't part of the crime/cover-up, he had to have had some sort of thought that PR killed JBR either accidentally or intentionally and covered it up. Why else would his wife write the ransom note? After he supposedly found the body the first time, it would've appeared not to have been an accident which makes it even more suspicious that he wouldn't have ran to get help the second he saw her. What would be the point of waiting three hours to "find" JBR a second time, then finally telling police?
 
I was talking about after JR read the ransom note and before he may have first found JBR's body (10 A.M.). If JR wasn't part of the crime/cover-up, he had to have had some sort of thought that PR killed JBR either accidentally or intentionally and covered it up. Why else would his wife write the ransom note? After he supposedly found the body the first time, it would've appeared not to have been an accident which makes it even more suspicious that he wouldn't have ran to get help the second he saw her. What would be the point of waiting three hours to "find" JBR a second time, then finally telling police?

You forget that Patsy was the person most responsible for the success John had become. It was her family that funded his business endeavors, and if John turned on Patsy, undoubtedly that funding would stop very quickly.

Just remember how cold and distant John and Patsy were at that time. IMO whatever was possibly wrong between them would have been dropped given the circumstances they faced, and they would have sought comfort in each other. I think the problem between them was that John suspected his wife and wanted nothing to do with her other than to continue to benefit from daddy's money.


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You forget that Patsy was the person most responsible for the success John had become. It was her family that funded his business endeavors, and if John turned on Patsy, undoubtedly that funding would stop very quickly.

Just remember how cold and distant John and Patsy were at that time. IMO whatever was possibly wrong between them would have been dropped given the circumstances they faced, and they would have sought comfort in each other. I think the problem between them was that John suspected his wife and wanted nothing to do with her other than to continue to benefit from daddy's money.


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Add to that the fact that he may have had suspicions about Burke's involvement
John strikes me as the polar opposite of Patsy. A very thoughtful, cautious type. I Don't find it at all surprising that whatever his suspicions were he would basically play along until he had a chance to confront Patsy privately. I do agree that his suspicions are the reason he was so cold to Patsy.
 
You forget that Patsy was the person most responsible for the success John had become. It was her family that funded his business endeavors, and if John turned on Patsy, undoubtedly that funding would stop very quickly.

Just remember how cold and distant John and Patsy were at that time. IMO whatever was possibly wrong between them would have been dropped given the circumstances they faced, and they would have sought comfort in each other. I think the problem between them was that John suspected his wife and wanted nothing to do with her other than to continue to benefit from daddy's money.


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BBM: I agree, so why wouldn't PR tell JR right away what she or BR had done and tell him to help her with the cover-up or else the funding would stop? When did she plan on telling him the truth, if at all?

IMO, it's definitely possible JR had no idea what was going on, but I sense some of his wording in the ransom note (AKA "proper burial") which is one of the reasons I think he had a hand in the cover-up. I don't think he wrote the whole note, but I think he gave PR ideas of what to say but she decided to go on a writing rampage, eventually writing three pages. When JR saw the note, he more or less said, "What the f*ck is this?" and that's where I think their distance comes from along with the fact that he may have been forced to be part of the cover-up.
 
BBM: I agree, so why wouldn't PR tell JR right away what she or BR had done and tell him to help her with the cover-up or else the funding would stop? When did she plan on telling him the truth, if at all?

IMO, it's definitely possible JR had no idea what was going on, but I sense some of his wording in the ransom note (AKA "proper burial") which is one of the reasons I think he had a hand in the cover-up. I don't think he wrote the whole note, but I think he gave PR ideas of what to say but she decided to go on a writing rampage, eventually writing three pages. When JR saw the note, he more or less said, "What the f*ck is this?" and that's where I think their distance comes from along with the fact that he may have been forced to be part of the cover-up.

I don't think Patsy wanted to confront John, threaten John, or even want John to know what actually happened. I think she was used to getting what she wanted. John was reliant on her family's money, and that is a deal with the devil. She always had that over him and always would, and John had probably learned that it was a situation he had to live with. So really Patsy didn't have to worry about John, she knew he would keep his mouth shut no matter what he suspected.

As far as some of the wording in the ransom note, 'proper burial" and "hence" to name a few. These words or phrases are certainly not the words of the typical working class American, but the are really just examples of proper English, and typical of what one might expect from a private school educated, Miss America wannabe, or a high tech executive running a billion dollar business. Just because John said "proper burial" in an interview it simply does not mean that that wasn't a phrase that Patsy used as well. Again, if John is in on it at that point he tells the first detective there that a door or window was open, and he certainly doesn't tell them the house was locked up tighter than Fort Knox.

When John tells Arndt "This was an inside job" I wonder if he was simply giving her a clue in Patsy's absence?
 
When John tells Arndt "This was an inside job" I wonder if he was simply giving her a clue in Patsy's absence?

He may not have expected the charade to last more than a few minutes- and wanted to be able to say he was not involved.
 
ITA about John not knowing until the next day. I have always believed that. I also believe if Burke was involved, which is my number one theory, that it was nothing more than the head bash.

The only other possibility I still entertain is that Patsy did all of it. In a fit of rage. I do lean more strongly though to BDI and all of the initial staging, including the War and Peace of Ransom notes, was Patsy.

I believe part of the reason she invited so many people over was to delay John confronting her and I think the often reported "distance" between the two of them that morning makes perfect sense if you assume that she was hoping to avoid questions and he was rapidly coming to the conclusion that, not only was there no kidnapping, but that his dear wife had clearly penned the RN.

That Note screams Patsy, even if the handwriting didn't match.

What frustrates me so much about these accounts is that they entirely ignore the unknown male DNA under Jonbenet's fingernail and the unknown boot mark from the floor. Where did all that come from if Patsy did it?

If the murder was committed in a "fit of rage" surely there would be some screams? Why did John or anyone else not hear anything? As far as Burke, anyone who has been around kids would know that it would be next to impossible for a child to keep quiet about such a thing. Had he witnessed/participated in his sister's brutal murder it would have traumatized him enough to speak up at some point. And you're telling me that Patsy sexually assaulted Jonbenet? Surrree.

The nature of the perfectly tied knots does not suggest she was killed impulsively. Nor does the heart on her hand...Don't you think if Patsy had done it she would have attempted to dispose of her daughter's body rather than leaving it in the basement? That has been the case with nearly all parents who kill their children.

As far as the distance goes, that would fall under the category of normal for someone with a missing child.
 
What frustrates me so much about these accounts is that they entirely ignore the unknown male DNA under Jonbenet's fingernail and the unknown boot mark from the floor. Where did all that come from if Patsy did it?

If the murder was committed in a "fit of rage" surely there would be some screams? Why did John or anyone else not hear anything? As far as Burke, anyone who has been around kids would know that it would be next to impossible for a child to keep quiet about such a thing. Had he witnessed/participated in his sister's brutal murder it would have traumatized him enough to speak up at some point. And you're telling me that Patsy sexually assaulted Jonbenet? Surrree.

The nature of the perfectly tied knots does not suggest she was killed impulsively. Nor does the heart on her hand...Don't you think if Patsy had done it she would have attempted to dispose of her daughter's body rather than leaving it in the basement? That has been the case with nearly all parents who kill their children.

As far as the distance goes, that would fall under the category of normal for someone with a missing child.

If Burke were afraid of getting in trouble, he might keep quiet... but I agree it would be tricky. As for Patsy, I do not believe she would have allowed Jonbenet to be removed. If the parents were involved in a cover up then that one fact is what makes this case so unusual.
 
He may not have expected the charade to last more than a few minutes- and wanted to be able to say he was not involved.

This. It was why he called his pilot to fly them to Atlanta within 30 minutes of finding his dead daughter - to take cover and get them all to their lawyers as soon as possible. He had no long-term plan of hiding anything.
 
This. It was why he called his pilot to fly them to Atlanta within 30 minutes of finding his dead daughter - to take cover and get them all to their lawyers as soon as possible. He had no long-term plan of hiding anything.

These are people who have always had every problem solved by $$$$$. They expected to be able to buy their way out of this, too. And succeeded, legally speaking.
 
This is how I see Jonbenet's case:

Momma walks into the kitchen
finds her toddlers smeared in cake
cake sitting between em half eaten
Guilty looks and cake all over fingers of toddlers

Momma thinks.....Hmmmmm mustve been the dog.....

The power of PR. See: Madeleine McCann.
 
Can someone point me in the direction to a place where I can get some information on exactly what the Colorado Children's Code that would have applied in this case IF BR was involved? I remember reading somewhere that because of his age, not only would his involvement be concealed but if needed, so would anyone else's if uncovering their identity would lead to identifying him. The reason I am curious is, to me, it might explain why school and Doctor records for both children were off limits and might even explain why Hunter decided not to follow through on the GJ's true bill. Anyway, any help would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.
 
Can someone point me in the direction to a place where I can get some information on exactly what the Colorado Children's Code that would have applied in this case IF BR was involved? I remember reading somewhere that because of his age, not only would his involvement be concealed but if needed, so would anyone else's if uncovering their identity would lead to identifying him. The reason I am curious is, to me, it might explain why school and Doctor records for both children were off limits and might even explain why Hunter decided not to follow through on the GJ's true bill. Anyway, any help would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

COLORADO REVISED STATUTES
*** This document reflects changes current through all laws passed at the First Regular Session
of the Seventieth General Assembly of the State of Colorado (2015) ***
TITLE 18. CRIMINAL CODE
ARTICLE 1.PROVISIONS APPLICABLE TO OFFENSES GENERALLY
PART 8. RESPONSIBILITY
C.R.S. 18-1-801 (2015)

18-1-801. Insufficient age



The responsibility of a person for his conduct is the same for persons between the ages of ten and eighteen as it is for persons over eighteen except to the extent that responsibility is modified by the provisions of the "Colorado Children's Code", title 19, C.R.S. No child under ten years of age shall be found guilty of any offense.

HISTORY: Source: L. 71: R&RE, p. 412, § 1. C.R.S. 1963: § 40-1-901.



Editor's note: This title was numbered as chapter 40, C.R.S. 1963. The substantive provisions of this title were repealed and reenacted in 1971, resulting in the addition, relocation, and elimination of sections as well as subject matter. For amendments to this title prior to 1971, consult the Colorado statutory research explanatory note beginning on page vii in the front of this volume. For a detailed comparison of this title, see the comparative tables located in the back of the index.


Law reviews: For article, "Criminal Law", which discusses Tenth Circuit decisions relating to criminal law, see 61 Den. L.J. 255 (1984); for article, "Criminal Law", which discusses Tenth Circuit decisions dealing with criminal law, see 62 Den. U. L. Rev. 125 (1985); for a discussion of Tenth Circuit decisions dealing with criminal law, see 66 Den. U. L. Rev. 711 (1989) and 67 Den. U. L. Rev. 691 (1990); for article, "Felony Sentencing in Colorado", see 18 Colo. Law. 1689 (1989); for article, "1990 Criminal Law Legislative Update", see 19 Colo. Law. 2049 (1990).

ANNOTATION

Law reviews. For article, "Mens Rea and the Colorado Criminal Code", see 52 U. Colo. L. Rev. 167 (1981). For comment, "Arrested Development: An Alternative to Juveniles Serving LIFE Without Parole in Colorado", see 78 U. Colo. L. Rev. 1059 (2007).

Annotator's note. Since § 18-1-801 is similar to former § 40-1-4, C.R.S. 1963, and laws antecedent thereto, relevant cases construing those provisions have been included in the annotations to this section.

An infant is presumed incapable of committing crime because he is presumed not to possess criminal intent. Calkins v. Albi, 163 Colo. 370, 431 P.2d 17 (1967).

An infant under the age of 10 years shall not be found guilty of any offense. Gallegos v. Tinsley, 139 Colo. 157, 337 P.2d 386 (1959); LeCoq ex rel. LeCoq v. Klemme, 28 Colo. App. 590, 476 P.2d 280 (1970).

Although a child under the age of 10 cannot be charged with an offense, it does not necessarily follow that the child cannot violate the law. In enacting the statute, the general assembly determined those persons who could be held responsible for their criminal acts, not that such persons could not commit the acts. People v. Miller, 830 P.2d 1092, (Colo. App. 1991).

Minor who is over 14 years of age is accountable for crimes committed by him. Gallegos v. Tinsley, 139 Colo. 157, 337 P.2d 386 (1959).

Though the children's code may not in so many words raise the age below which there can be no criminal responsibility as concerns a felony from 10 to 14 years, in effect, that is exactly what it did. People ex rel. Terrell v. District Court, 164 Colo. 437, 435 P.2d 763 (1967).

Incapacity is a defense. The incapacity of a party, by reason of his tender years, to commit the crime charged may be a good defense on the trial, as it may effectually negative the charge. Mitchell v. People, 24 Colo. 532, 52 P. 671 (1898).

Capacity is not required to be stated in the indictment, and its omission furnishes no ground for arresting the judgment after a verdict against the accused. Mitchell v. People, 24 Colo. 532, 52 P. 671 (1898).

This section is not relevant to a determination of liability for the commission of an intentional tort. LeCoq ex rel. LeCoq v. Klemme, 28 Colo. App. 590, 476 P.2d 280 (1970).

Applied in People v. Gallegos, 628 P.2d 999 (Colo. 1981).

C.R.S. 18-1-801
 
Thank you. So am I reading this correctly? A child under 10 would not be charged with an offense but it would still be recognized that he violated the law? I assume they mean only in relation to related case?
 
Thank you. So am I reading this correctly? A child under 10 would not be charged with an offense but it would still be recognized that he violated the law? I assume they mean only in relation to related case?
That's correct, Jolamom. At least, that is how I understand it and how I've had it explained by an attorney. It mostly all comes down to this one section that would apply here:

Although a child under the age of 10 cannot be charged with an offense, it does not necessarily follow that the child cannot violate the law. In enacting the statute, the general assembly determined those persons who could be held responsible for their criminal acts, not that such persons could not commit the acts. People v. Miller, 830 P.2d 1092, (Colo. App. 1991).

The People v. Miller case to which this annotation refers is discussed (along with a lot of other legal aspects) in the following thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...tatutes-relating-to-JonBenet-Ramsey%92s-death

Because of the Colorado Statutes, Burke was never -- could never be -- considered a suspect in any kind of felony case. This is not to say he committed any such violation or that he wasn't capable of committing an act that he could have been held liable for if he was just one month older. But being under the age of ten (an "infant" by definition in CO law) he could not be considered a suspect. If anyone has any doubt about this, read the words of Michael Kane when asked a question on CNN (bbm):

"Well I think that there’s-maybe we’re playing semantics here, but if there’s a suggestion that someone was targeted to the exclusion of anybody else, that’s what I take exception to. The police investigation, contrary to what Mr. Wood said in the little clip you just showed, the police investigation never excluded anybody with the exception of Burke Ramsey from the focus of the case. And so I don’t think that you can say that the police investigation was just solely looking at the- at Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey."

http://www.acandyrose.com/20030717DanAbramsReport911Rope.htm
 
No one seems to realize just how wealthy and powerful John Ramsey was.

Still is.

He had a private jet for Goodness sake!

The BDI theory is insane to me for many reasons, but most importantly - the Ramsey Money and Connections = Zero Need to Cover for Burke.

They had enough cash to stick him in a facility for the next 10 years if they chose. Enough cash to cover everything up, leave town, negotiate with DAs on Soft Penalties for the Poor Boy.

Nope. Burke got NOTHING, not even attention, in the wake of JB's death.

It was all about covering JR and PR's backs. Burke was barely an afterthought.
 
Can someone point me in the direction to a place where I can get some information on exactly what the Colorado Children's Code that would have applied in this case IF BR was involved? I remember reading somewhere that because of his age, not only would his involvement be concealed but if needed, so would anyone else's if uncovering their identity would lead to identifying him. The reason I am curious is, to me, it might explain why school and Doctor records for both children were off limits and might even explain why Hunter decided not to follow through on the GJ's true bill. Anyway, any help would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

As we see by the behavior of Alex Hunt, to charge or not to charge is Entirely Voluntary in Colorado.

Chances are, had it been Burke, I would not know the name JonBenet. No one would. It would've been all covered up as an Unfortunate Family Incident not smeared all over tv even now, 20 years later, John Ramsey and his ego and his Dupers Delight. :(
 
As we see by the behavior of Alex Hunt, to charge or not to charge is Entirely Voluntary in Colorado.

Chances are, had it been Burke, I would not know the name JonBenet. No one would. It would've been all covered up as an Unfortunate Family Incident not smeared all over tv even now, 20 years later, John Ramsey and his ego and his Dupers Delight. :(
I find it hard to imagine either parent would have willingly cooperated with the other to cover up JonBenet's murder to begin with for the sake of the other parent. (You are not talking about two people who had a history of amoral behavior.) But, even if they did decide to take part in the coverup, what made them continue on with the lie? If Patsy did it, why wouldn't someone now tell the truth and free the rest of them from suspicion? Or, on her deathbed, why not finally clear her name? The only person I could see them working together and staying united to continue to protect is BR. And I do not think sticking him in a facility or allowing his reputation to be tarnished in any way, was ever an option.
 
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