Was Burke Involved # 5

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,
Sure but who moved the pads and why? What you outline suggests JR moved the pads from the glass table, do you think this was part of the R's crime-scene staging?

.

I believe that the pad was probably staged on the glass table for the reasons I posted earlier. Why did JR then abandon that plan and move the pad to a safe spot where he could control the finding of it later?

I believe right after Arndt asked for the film in JR's camera, she asked JR if he had a handwriting sample(a note, or a list) for LHP. JR then went to the Kitchen nook area to look for one(per Arndt's report). JR returned and said he didn't have one. I believe this is when he grabbed the pad and deviously took it back to the the kitchen nook and stashed it there next to the pen that was found in the basket below the phone.

It was around 8:45 when Arndt asked JR for this. By this time, it had laid there for 3 hours and no one took the bait. Everyone was controlled to one area of the house at this time, and JR figured having it back in the nook(where an insider or intruder would have written it)was the best place for it.

For some reason JR felt the need to make sure the police discovered that pad. Like I said he could have destroyed it before the police arrived. I think JR thought he was slick when he handed it over. You can almost hear the words inside of his head. "When I hand this over freely it's going to show I have nothing to hide, because after all, it would be completely stupid to hand it over to police if I, or Patsy killed my daughter. I'm not stupid."

Oh, JR, but that's exactly what you did, didn't you?(I'm spitballing here)

Then, wait for it.....In JR's interview with Smit this is exactly what he said:


6 LOU SMIT: This is why, you know,
7 people think about those things, and especially
8 detectives.

9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, what I -- I
10 guess one of the things that I felt all along is
11 I mean this thing with oh, you know, we found
12 the practice note and ransom note -- the
13 practice ransom note on the pad. If I was
14 setting this up, give me some credit for being
15 smarter than that. You know, would I have
16 handed Linda Arndt the pad that I wrote the
17 practice note on? If we were trying to disguise
18 something, why wouldn't we say oh, yeah, we fed
19 her pineapple before she went to bed, that
20 explains that. We didn't.





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[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar, you wrote just what I had been thinking, the WHAT IF Fleet White had grabbed one of the pads before it was taken as evidence. Remember how the R's mentioned several times that FW was writing notes right away while the friends were gathered with PR in the sunroom? wow, what sort of diabolical person would try to falsely implicate FW? answer: a desperate one

=JR&PR


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[Cottonstar]

archieil,
Yeah, good question. Did JR have to check the writing, i.e. the RN Drafts, yikes? Why did JR turn over the pads so readily, why not go upstairs and fetch some of Patsy's old letters, notes, etc?

.

I think you just answered your own question.


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[Cottonstar]

archieil,
Yeah, good question. Did JR have to check the writing, i.e. the RN Drafts, yikes? Why did JR turn over the pads so readily, why not go upstairs and fetch some of Patsy's old letters, notes, etc?

.

There must have been something discernible on the front of the pads, because LE knew that it was Patsy's pad on the glass table in 17.7


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[Cottonstar]

No fingerprints on the pad. Had to be Teflon-man who moved it.

Why? Diabolically trying to implicate someone else? Could be. But FW or PW didn't take the bait. At that hour they all were waiting for the kidnapper call.

Don't you know, it was the same Teflon-man that moved the ransom note from the stairs to the floor?


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[DeDee]

Were pads any different?

Except for the name on it?

No, there was no discerable difference in the white writing tablets. Patsy claimed she purchased them in bulk.

And Cottonstar's post # 867 explains how their names came to be written on the tablets.

Before Whitson leaves for his meeting with the FBI at BPD, which sources say, was after 10:00, he states the following:

"I asked Mr. Ramsey for samples of his and his wife's handwriting, just as standard procedure. Mr. Ramsey gave two notepads to Det. Patterson, who in turn gave them to me. I was advised that one of the samples was for Mr. Ramsey, and the other was a sample of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting. I wrote their respective names on the notebooks at the top, but didn't look at the samples or pay any attention to them at the time since I wanted to leave the house as soon as possible for a meeting with the FBI at the BPD."

 

[Cranberry]

No fingerprints on the pad. Had to be Teflon-man who moved it.

Why? Diabolically trying to implicate someone else? Could be. But FW or PW didn't take the bait. At that hour they all were waiting for the kidnapper call.

Hi qft, Actually there were fingerprints on the notepad: from Kolar, A. James. Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? Seven (7) latent fingerprints were able to be developed on the notepad, and CBI technicians identified one print as belonging to BPD Sergeant Robert Whitson, the person who had collected the pad from John Ramsey on the morning of the kidnapping. A print belonging to CBI Technician Chet Ubowski was identified, and the remaining five (5) latent prints were identified as belonging to Patsy Ramsey.

 

[questfortrue]

Hi qft, Actually there were fingerprints on the notepad: from Kolar, A. James. Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? Seven (7) latent fingerprints were able to be developed on the notepad, and CBI technicians identified one print as belonging to BPD Sergeant Robert Whitson, the person who had collected the pad from John Ramsey on the morning of the kidnapping. A print belonging to CBI Technician Chet Ubowski was identified, and the remaining five (5) latent prints were identified as belonging to Patsy Ramsey.

Thanks, Cranberry. I should have been more clear. Beyond the scientists and detectives, it would have been totally strange if PR’s prints had not been found on it. What I found unusual is that JR handed off the pads to the detectives, and his prints were not recorded on the RN pad. Neither were they on the RN itself. IIRC, as JR and PR were following the case online, they came up with the explanation that the RN floated somehow (or was carried by someone) to the hallway, where JR had to read it on his hands and knees. The man always had an explanation.

 

[singularity]

Correct -- this is what people don't understand about fingerprints. They simply believe that it must have been wiped, when in reality, fingerprints aren't always left of certain surfaces, depending on skin type and the amount of grease. Not only that, but prints can evaporate as well. I'm not saying the flashlight wasn't used in the murder at all -- I don't know -- I'm just stating a fact: simply because no prints were found on an object, doesn't definitively prove said object was wiped down. It reminds me of the Kurt Cobain case. There were no prints found on the shotgun, so people automatically assume it was a murder. That isn't the case, at least necessarily.

What we can say, definitively, is that there were no prints on the flashlight nor the batteries.

Yeah....Thomas said eons ago he was just speculating that it had been wiped of prints. This morphed into fact. No matter how many times this is pointed out, it goes right back to being wiped of prints. I rarely bother anymore. If people will skim over his words, they're certainly skimming over mine.

Not every item a person touches has a bunch of clean prints.

Back to regularly scheduled programming....

 

[UKGuy]

I believe that the pad was probably staged on the glass table for the reasons I posted earlier. Why did JR then abandon that plan and move the pad to a safe spot where he could control the finding of it later?

I believe right after Arndt asked for the film in JR's camera, she asked JR if he had a handwriting sample(a note, or a list) for LHP. JR then went to the Kitchen nook area to look for one(per Arndt's report). JR returned and said he didn't have one. I believe this is when he grabbed the pad and deviously took it back to the the kitchen nook and stashed it there next to the pen that was found in the basket below the phone.

It was around 8:45 when Arndt asked JR for this. By this time, it had laid there for 3 hours and no one took the bait. Everyone was controlled to one area of the house at this time, and JR figured having it back in the nook(where an insider or intruder would have written it)was the best place for it.

For some reason JR felt the need to make sure the police discovered that pad. Like I said he could have destroyed it before the police arrived. I think JR thought he was slick when he handed it over. You can almost hear the words inside of his head. "When I hand this over freely it's going to show I have nothing to hide, because after all, it would be completely stupid to hand it over to police if I, or Patsy killed my daughter. I'm not stupid."

Oh, JR, but that's exactly what you did, didn't you?(I'm spitballing here)

Then, wait for it.....In JR's interview with Smit this is exactly what he said:


6 LOU SMIT: This is why, you know,
7 people think about those things, and especially
8 detectives.

9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, what I -- I
10 guess one of the things that I felt all along is
11 I mean this thing with oh, you know, we found
12 the practice note and ransom note -- the
13 practice ransom note on the pad. If I was
14 setting this up, give me some credit for being
15 smarter than that. You know, would I have
16 handed Linda Arndt the pad that I wrote the
17 practice note on? If we were trying to disguise
18 something, why wouldn't we say oh, yeah, we fed
19 her pineapple before she went to bed, that
20 explains that. We didn't.





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Cottonstar,

I believe that the pad was probably staged on the glass table for the reasons I posted earlier. Why did JR then abandon that plan and move the pad to a safe spot where he could control the finding of it later?

You could be right about that, yet JR seems to abandon this strategy, whereas just leaving them out in the open, surely might result in discovery than by stashing them away?

6 LOU SMIT: This is why, you know,
7 people think about those things, and especially
8 detectives.

9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, what I -- I
10 guess one of the things that I felt all along is
11 I mean this thing with oh, you know, we found
12 the practice note and ransom note -- the
13 practice ransom note on the pad. If I was
14 setting this up, give me some credit for being
15 smarter than that. You know, would I have
16 handed Linda Arndt the pad that I wrote the
17 practice note on? If we were trying to disguise
18 something, why wouldn't we say oh, yeah, we fed
19 her pineapple before she went to bed, that
20 explains that. We didn't.

we found the practice note and ransom note IMO this is the giveaway phrase it achieves the opposite of JR's intent, since why stash them away, why not bring them immediately to some officers attention?

If we were trying to disguise
18 something, why wouldn't we say oh, yeah, we fed
19 her pineapple before she went to bed, that
20 explains that. We didn't.

CEO arrogance emanating from JR here. Since what he said does not explain the parents ignorance regarding the pineapple snack, its an after the fact rationale.

JR is attempting to conflate the pads and the pineapple, yet leaks his intent regarding the pads, i.e. 'disguise', or to us staging.

JR can say all this stuff because he never wrote the ransom note that was Patsy, by handing over the pads, I reckon he is double-crossing Patsy and attempting to minimise his role, at least to the attending officers?

JR knows the wine-cellar staging has holes in it so wants to stand clear.

.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,


You could be right about that, yet JR seems to abandon this strategy, whereas just leaving them out in the open, surely might result in discovery than by stashing them away?



we found the practice note and ransom note IMO this is the giveaway phrase it achieves the opposite of JR's intent, since why stash them away, why not bring them immediately to some officers attention?


CEO arrogance emanating from JR here. Since what he said does not explain the parents ignorance regarding the pineapple snack, its an after the fact rationale.

JR is attempting to conflate the pads and the pineapple, yet leaks his intent regarding the pads, i.e. 'disguise', or to us staging.

JR can say all this stuff because he never wrote the ransom note that was Patsy, by handing over the pads, I reckon he is double-crossing Patsy and attempting to minimise his role, at least to the attending officers?

JR knows the wine-cellar staging has holes in it so wants to stand clear.

.

Psychological distancing. JR didn't want to be the one that discovered the notepad. That means he would have fingered the whole thing, and we know the steps taken by both parents to distant themselves from the note/practice note.

For the reasons I laid out before, the Rams made sure the police got the notepad that the note came from. However, I think this was double-insurance for JR. If the cover-up was going to fail, I believe he took steps to implicate Patsy.


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[CorallaroC]

Cottonstar, well said! I would only want to rephrase for a bigger scope --- if the crime scene staging fails, then make sure to implicate someone else who is close enough to the murder to lead LE to "buy" the idea that it was and "inside job". Easy Peasy, right? Dang, the more I learn about this case in recent months when brilliant minds are taking a hard look of things, the more I can see how sinister this crime was from the outset.

Not that crimes since then are copycats (because how could future murderers really learn tactics from the JBR case with so many facts obscured from the beginning and remaining covered-up for two decades now --- BUT I think most of us can reflect on other crimes since 1996 to grasp a pretty solid idea of what some of the propensities are. All so sickening.

Let's just be glad the world of CSI is a hella lot smarter nowdays. But at such a horrific price. I'm speechless at times, sorry.

 

[archieil]

btw

Fingerprints are made mostly from sweat.

Clean, freshly washed hands = much lower possibility of full or even partial fingerprints.

For me, it looks like someone was using a crystal ball to choose which pad to use for RN.

May be he used a more used pad. A pad with a higher amount of written pages.

I was thinking about a smell, small ornament or sth like this. Women like to use perfume on their "diaries".

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar, well said! I would only want to rephrase for a bigger scope --- if the crime scene staging fails, then make sure to implicate someone else who is close enough to the murder to lead LE to "buy" the idea that it was and "inside job". Easy Peasy, right? Dang, the more I learn about this case in recent months when brilliant minds are taking a hard look of things, the more I can see how sinister this crime was from the outset.

Not that crimes since then are copycats (because how could future murderers really learn tactics from the JBR case with so many facts obscured from the beginning and remaining covered-up for two decades now --- BUT I think most of us can reflect on other crimes since 1996 to grasp a pretty solid idea of what some of the propensities are. All so sickening.

Let's just be glad the world of CSI is a hella lot smarter nowdays. But at such a horrific price. I'm speechless at times, sorry.

CC, well put.

I think this about sums it up:

"If we are confused and mystified by not just the contents of the Ransom Note but the material of the note itself, if we can't understand why Patsy would write it using her own kitchen pad with a pen in the kitchen (and not dispose of either of these) If, we're puzzled why John simply handed samples of his and Patsy's writing over to police when requested at 09:30 that morning, when Patsy's own paintbrush is used as a garrotte, none of it makes sense. Unless the staging is intended to reinforce the idea of an inside job. When Patsy is asked about the handwriting, she immediately fingers the housekeeper, Linda Hoffman Pugh. Linda also has a key to the house. John seems to finger a disgruntled employee, Jeff Merrick. The curious thing is both Patsy and John are effectively accusing employees-a housekeeper is Patsy's first choice, and for John it's a disgruntled ex-employee at Access Graphics.

What students of this crime need to see up close is this initial acknowledgement from both JonBenet's parents that it has to be an inside job. Just the mere fact that JonBenet is found dead in the Ramsey home is massively damning. That fact alone is a huge hurdle for them. The Ransom Note is both massive misdirection to someone outside of the family but with intimate knowledge of the house and also an enormous giveaway. Patsy was doubtless aware of this, which is why some effort is made to disguise not merely the handwriting style, but the psychology of the author. Hence the initial spelling mistakes and the movie-speak.

Patsy's entire note is also "plausible deniability": It’s not my handwriting -It’s not neat enough -I wouldn't make those spelling mistakes -Why would I write a Ransom Note in my own kitchen, with my own pen on my own writing pad?"-from "The Day After Christmas (Anno Xmas Book 1)" by Nick van der Leek, Lisa Wilson


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[archieil]

I do not know Ramseys good enough.

But they were educated persons, somewhat religious.

Patsy could speak that way to say in translation:
"I do not remember anything helpful, I would not do this grammar errors".

Not all people are sure they are innocent just because they think were sleeping for a whole night and have no other memories.

I am sure she could have some past experience with hallucinations and different medicines.

btw. people in hypnosis could have different writing style, the same with schizophrenia.

[edit] keep in mind that she could hear or think that she hears something in the middle of the night. she could think it was some past memory which bleached from her brain. Has anyone asked her for the dream she had that night?

 

[Userid]

I believe that the pad was probably staged on the glass table for the reasons I posted earlier. Why did JR then abandon that plan and move the pad to a safe spot where he could control the finding of it later?

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Snipped to address specific point:

Before this post, you said JR accidentally snapped the photo of the pads on the glass table.

In this post, you say he purposefully staged the pads on the glass table for staging purposes.

How could he accidentally snap the photo of the glass table, knowing full well he had staged the pads there? You'd almost have to believe that he took the picture on purpose too -- the R's pretty much do everything in your theory on purpose anyway.

How do we know the pads simply weren't handed over in between when JR took the picture and when the police photographed the glass table?

 

[Userid]

archieil,
Yeah, good question. Did JR have to check the writing, i.e. the RN Drafts, yikes? Why did JR turn over the pads so readily, why not go upstairs and fetch some of Patsy's old letters, notes, etc?

.

Because he knew police had seen them and had no other choice. It would have looked too suspicious for him to not hand them over at that point.

People keep assuming that the R's moved the pads, but what if the police moved them (assuming they weren't already turned over by JR before the police picture of the glass table was taken)?

 

[Userid]

Yeah....Thomas said eons ago he was just speculating that it had been wiped of prints. This morphed into fact. No matter how many times this is pointed out, it goes right back to being wiped of prints. I rarely bother anymore. If people will skim over his words, they're certainly skimming over mine.

Not every item a person touches has a bunch of clean prints.

Back to regularly scheduled programming....

I understand Singularity and I don't blame you for not bothering anymore, but I do love your posts, so don't be too much of a stranger around here.

 

[Cottonstar]

Snipped to address specific point:

Before this post, you said JR accidentally snapped the photo of the pads on the glass table.

In this post, you say he purposefully staged the pads on the glass table for staging purposes.

How could he accidentally snap the photo of the glass table, knowing full well he had staged the pads there? You'd almost have to believe that he took the picture on purpose too -- the R's pretty much do everything in your theory on purpose anyway.

How do we know the pads simply weren't handed over in between when JR took the picture and when the police photographed the glass table?

It's a conundrum, for sure.

Because, according to Whitson when he asked JR for samples, CSI Weiss was already back at the police station.


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[Userid]

^ Yeah, it really is. I can't really see why he would move the pads (assuming to a much more secluded/hidden location), only to relinquish them to police anyway. That's why I believe they were handed over sometime between when he took the photograph and when the police took the photograph (of the glass table).

Also, if he moved the pads, why bother staging them on the glass table in the first place?

I believe that the notes were laid there purposefully, but only to mask the fact that one was used to write the note. If the pad was left were the note was actually written -- and left unfurled to the exact page the note was ripped out -- it would have been obvious that it was used. The new question is, where was the ransom note actually written? I used to believe it was written in the living room table (where the pineapple was found) -- that's still a possibility, but I also believe it could have been written in the R's bedroom.