Was Burke involved?

[madeleine]

Another thing that supports this theory.....
not my fav argument but let's assume that the one who strangled her (as part of a staging) didn't know she was still alive.....this is something else that suggests that the stager was in a panic......why?not because police or a friend shows up,it was night,but maybe because the stager was afraid that the other one could wake up.....

 

[madeleine]

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evidently something much more darker than we might imagine was taking place in the Ramsey household!


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ITA ,I always felt this way and it's the garrote (doesn't matter if part of a staging or premeditated murder) that makes me feel like this.
I will always repeat this,whoever used it as a murder weapon or as part of a staging is/was a very sick twisted person.There are tons of other ways you would think of in order to make it look like it was something else.A RN for ex.But the use of the garrote says a lot about the one who did it.This is another reason why I start to believe maybe one didn't know about what the other did.One sick parent ....it happens.....two sick twisted parents?dunno.


And it's obvious JR lived in denial after Beth's death,it's understandable.Maybe he did the same re JB and whoever killed her?It's easier,I don't wanna know,I am protecting myself.

 

[UKGuy]

ITA ,I always felt this way and it's the garrote (doesn't matter if part of a staging or premeditated murder) that makes me feel like this.
I will always repeat this,whoever used it as a murder weapon or as part of a staging is/was a very sick twisted person.There are tons of other ways you would think of in order to make it look like it was something else.A RN for ex.But the use of the garrote says a lot about the one who did it.This is another reason why I start to believe maybe one didn't know about what the other did.One sick parent ....it happens.....two sick twisted parents?dunno.


And it's obvious JR lived in denial after Beth's death,it's understandable.Maybe he did the same re JB and whoever killed her?It's easier,I don't wanna know,I am protecting myself.

madeleine,
The garrote does come over as a Patsy feature. As a staging element it is so out place. Once you work out it could never work as advertised, then alike the size-12's, from Patsy's dramatic perspective, was designed to serve another purpose, e.g. mask a prior neck compression. Or more dramatically to knowingly finish JonBenet off?

The one thing I would like to find is a clue that really points to a prior staging, since the wine-cellar crime-scene is more a dump-site than a real crime-scene. there is nothing in the wine-cellar that suggests it all happened down in the basement. In fact most of the evidence is unrelated, even John Ramsey commented on the pink nightgown that it should not be there.

How long would it take to clean up JonBenet, redress her in the gap-top, size-12's, possibly assault her internally, and longjohns, wrap her in a blanket, garrote her, add those restraints and duct-tape?

I count 9 separate items there, so lets assume 5 minutes for each item, so thats 45 minutes, in total. Probably an overestimate, but a working figure.

So working backwards from the 911 call at 5:52 a.m, thats about 50 minutes, so lets round up our estimate to 50 minutes, then it looks as if the decision to stage a kidnapping scenario began around 5:00 a.m..

Now that 50 minutes assumes one person, but we know two were involved and a ransom note was constructed. So from the fiber evidence we know Patsy undertook some of the staging. No so John, since his fibers may be prior to the wine-cellar scenario. It is possible, that Patsy carried out most of the redressing of JonBenet? And this is where the prior staging comes in: the size-12's may have been placed onto JonBenet upstairs. There is no evidence suggesting they were taken from a partially opened gift.

So if JonBenet was assaulted and a head bash was inflicted lets say around 12:30 a.m. just what transpired between say 1:00 a.m. and approx 5:00 a.m. ?

We have a lacuna, did John or Patsy go for a rest period, did they spend some quality time together? If it was a BDI did Burke retire to bed and fall asleep, not realizing JonBenet was gone?

So thats about 5 hours to enact some kind of staging. Yet from the wine-cellar evidence, it would appear one person could have completed everything in about 1 hour 30 minutes?

So unless I have got my timing wrong, there is something missing here, either in our assumptions, or to what the R's actually got up to?

This is why I think there was a prior staging. Or was it a BDI, with the parents arising early to get ready for their flight, discovering some scenario which initiates a parental coverup?


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[madeleine]

madeleine,
The garrote does come over as a Patsy feature.

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Could also be some toy Burke made BEFORE the day of the crime?

 

[Tessa2009]

madeleine,
The garrote does come over as a Patsy feature. As a staging element it is so out place. Once you work out it could never work as advertised, then alike the size-12's, from Patsy's dramatic perspective, was designed to serve another purpose, e.g. mask a prior neck compression. Or more dramatically to knowingly finish JonBenet off?

The one thing I would like to find is a clue that really points to a prior staging, since the wine-cellar crime-scene is more a dump-site than a real crime-scene. there is nothing in the wine-cellar that suggests it all happened down in the basement. In fact most of the evidence is unrelated, even John Ramsey commented on the pink nightgown that it should not be there.

How long would it take to clean up JonBenet, redress her in the gap-top, size-12's, possibly assault her internally, and longjohns, wrap her in a blanket, garrote her, add those restraints and duct-tape?

I count 9 separate items there, so lets assume 5 minutes for each item, so thats 45 minutes, in total. Probably an overestimate, but a working figure.

So working backwards from the 911 call at 5:52 a.m, thats about 50 minutes, so lets round up our estimate to 50 minutes, then it looks as if the decision to stage a kidnapping scenario began around 5:00 a.m..

Now that 50 minutes assumes one person, but we know two were involved and a ransom note was constructed. So from the fiber evidence we know Patsy undertook some of the staging. No so John, since his fibers may be prior to the wine-cellar scenario. It is possible, that Patsy carried out most of the redressing of JonBenet? And this is where the prior staging comes in: the size-12's may have been placed onto JonBenet upstairs. There is no evidence suggesting they were taken from a partially opened gift.

So if JonBenet was assaulted and a head bash was inflicted lets say around 12:30 a.m. just what transpired between say 1:00 a.m. and approx 5:00 a.m. ?

We have a lacuna, did John or Patsy go for a rest period, did they spend some quality time together? If it was a BDI did Burke retire to bed and fall asleep, not realizing JonBenet was gone?

So thats about 5 hours to enact some kind of staging. Yet from the wine-cellar evidence, it would appear one person could have completed everything in about 1 hour 30 minutes?

So unless I have got my timing wrong, there is something missing here, either in our assumptions, or to what the R's actually got up to?

This is why I think there was a prior staging. Or was it a BDI, with the parents arising early to get ready for their flight, discovering some scenario which initiates a parental coverup?


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Maybe we are just over analyzing....they could have been trying to come up with a plan....going back and forth on whether to call the police or not....What if JBR was wakened at 3:00 am? There are a ton of "what ifs"....IMO, I seriously doubt Burke could have done any of this.....child molesters and killers usually don't stop at just ONE child....

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe we are just over analyzing....they could have been trying to come up with a plan....going back and forth on whether to call the police or not....What if JBR was wakened at 3:00 am? There are a ton of "what ifs"....IMO, I seriously doubt Burke could have done any of this.....child molesters and killers usually don't stop at just ONE child....

Tessa2009,

Maybe we are just over analyzing....they could have been trying to come up with a plan....going back and forth on whether to call the police or not....What if JBR was wakened at 3:00 am? There are a ton of "what ifs"....IMO, I seriously doubt Burke could have done any of this.....child molesters and killers usually don't stop at just ONE child....

Well we are familiar with enough of the evidence to know which if questions to ask, and those to ignore. That the R's spent five hours debating their staging strategy, is not borne out by the evidence. All that time to hatch a plan, yet what they eventually concocted is flawed and riddled with elementary mistakes from the size-12's to the bloodstains on her bedroom pillow, neglecting JonBenet's pineapple snack completely!

The R's had about five hours to come up with a watertight staging plan, this they failed to do. Any RDI should offer an explanation for this gap or sense of inaction?


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[UKGuy]

Could also be some toy Burke made BEFORE the day of the crime?

madeleine,
Probably not, since Patsy's fibers are embedded into the knotting of the paintbrush handle.

Patsy's fibers place her in the wine-cellar, and as the likely killer of JonBenet.


I quote BDI since it is a credible alternative to either of the parents being the original assailant.

That gap in time, betwen the original assault, and the wine-cellar staging, merits a BDI being given more traction.



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[Tessa2009]

Tessa2009,

Well we are familiar with enough of the evidence to know which if questions to ask, and those to ignore. That the R's spent five hours debating their staging strategy, is not borne out by the evidence. All that time to hatch a plan, yet what they eventually concocted is flawed and riddled with elementary mistakes from the size-12's to the bloodstains on her bedroom pillow, neglecting JonBenet's pineapple snack completely!

The R's had about five hours to come up with a watertight staging plan, this they failed to do. Any RDI should offer an explanation for this gap or sense of inaction?


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I'm not sure if I'm following you....??? Of course there would be elementary mistakes...JR and PR weren't smart, commonsense smart...at least I don't see it. IMO, PR and JR thought they were smarter than the police (and for the most part they were)- and that they could and would get away with the staging, which they did. And I'm not saying they got away with it from the public's opinion, I am just saying that neither of them are in prison. They thought enough in that 5 hours (your time frame) to take the eyes off them....We also don't know how long it took to write the RN....and how many (if any) rough drafts there were. It could have taken an hour or more for PR and JR to convince eachother to not call the police. We just don't know.

A RDI has never given me an adequate answer as to WHY an intruder would write a three page RN at the crime scene......with all of the evidence - THAT has always made me believe it was a Ramsey.....I just don't think a 9 year old boy could hold murdering his sister inside himself for very long...I'm not saying I'm right.....just saying I can't "see it".

 

[madeleine]

I just don't think a 9 year old boy could hold murdering his sister inside himself for very long...I'm not saying I'm right.....just saying I can't "see it".

there are plenty of 9 year olds who committed horrible crimes and can be sociopaths at that age and with the help of a good shrink they can be trained to control it (not to make it go away but to control it) especially if constantly supervised by a smart adult like JR and a bunch of lawyers IMO

 

[madeleine]

Patsy's fibers place her in the wine-cellar,

that's true

and as the likely killer of JonBenet.
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not necessarily since it was probably a sexually motivated crime and IMO the most likely person to be the abuser is the father in this case
his fibers show he had somehow contact with the victim AFTER her pants were changed,no?which means,he knew she's dead or dying and it involves him in the cover-up (maybe not necessarily in the murder itself)

 

[madeleine]

dunno what I'm actually trying to say,just playing with all possible scenarios here,there will always be for me THAT missing piece of the puzzle who could enlighten me....something's missing and none of the scenarios makes real sense to me....

 

[UKGuy]

I'm not sure if I'm following you....??? Of course there would be elementary mistakes...JR and PR weren't smart, commonsense smart...at least I don't see it. IMO, PR and JR thought they were smarter than the police (and for the most part they were)- and that they could and would get away with the staging, which they did. And I'm not saying they got away with it from the public's opinion, I am just saying that neither of them are in prison. They thought enough in that 5 hours (your time frame) to take the eyes off them....We also don't know how long it took to write the RN....and how many (if any) rough drafts there were. It could have taken an hour or more for PR and JR to convince eachother to not call the police. We just don't know.

A RDI has never given me an adequate answer as to WHY an intruder would write a three page RN at the crime scene......with all of the evidence - THAT has always made me believe it was a Ramsey.....I just don't think a 9 year old boy could hold murdering his sister inside himself for very long...I'm not saying I'm right.....just saying I can't "see it".

Tessa2009,
The mistakes were not elementary were they. Neglecting the pineapple evidence when they they fabricated their version of events, placing size-12's onto JonBenet. Placing the blood-stained barbie nightgown into the wine-cellar.

A RDI has never given me an adequate answer as to WHY an intruder would write a three page RN at the crime scene......with all of the evidence - THAT has always made me believe it was a Ramsey.....I just don't think a 9 year old boy could hold murdering his sister inside himself for very long...I'm not saying I'm right.....just saying I can't "see it".

Why would RDI need to justify an IDI RN? Of course it was a Ramsey, there was zero evidence linking anyone else to the house. It could be BDI, Burke may have had a personality disorder, we do not know. BDI explains the parents assisting each other so zealously.

Five hours is enough time to complete the wine-cellar staging then check it all over for mistakes etc.


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[UKGuy]

dunno what I'm actually trying to say,just playing with all possible scenarios here,there will always be for me THAT missing piece of the puzzle who could enlighten me....something's missing and none of the scenarios makes real sense to me....

madeleine,
This is usually the best way to go. Then eventually it does make sense. At least for me it does.

The way I see it JonBenet returned from the White's party, after possibly changing clothes, she settled down to a pineapple snack and talked over the evening with Patsy and Burke present at the breakfast bar?

Then after her snack someone sexually assaulted JonBenet upstairs, this was followed either accidentally or deliberately by someone whacking JonBenet on the head, possibly after physical violence consisting of slapping, punching etc.

JonBenet appeared dead, and did not respond to attempts to revive her.

Approximately five hours later JonBenet was dumped into the wine-cellar along with her bloodstained nightgown. At 5:50 a.m. the 911 call was made claiming JonBenet had been abducted

So in that five hours its unlikely the Ramsey's were sitting about drinking coffee and discussing the weather. This is the missing piece, or time frame when patently some kind of action was undertaken. IMO someone probably faked a crime-scene in JonBenet's bedroom?


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[DeeDee249]

There were no marks on the body to indicate she was slapped or punched. While a slap might not make a bruise, a punch would. There was nothing noted (or apparently said) at the autopsy to indicate the coroner thought she had been beaten. Any reports (and there were some inaccuracies) that she was found "beaten and strangled" were incorrect about the beating. The head bash is not a beating, but rather a bludgeoning, and it was properly noted as "blunt force trauma".
The only real external bruising was found on the labia (a small purplish bruise was found there) and the larger one on her right posterior shoulder, possibly indicating where someone's knee or other body part may have pressed into her while making and/or tightening the ligature. Other marks were noted as abrasions or scrapes, etc. There was some internal vaginal bruising.
No injuries were found on her limbs, torso or organs that would be consistent with a punch or her being beaten with something. The liver and spleen are especially prone to being injured or even lacerated from a punch or beating. Hers were in perfect condition, with only the expected mild autolysis where noted.

 

[katydid23]

If Burke is a pervert and a child molester, maybe even a killer, why hasn't he been caught doing similar deeds?

 

[CanManEh]

Hey..Im sorry as this is a little OT but was something i wanted to ask in this forum and get your oppinnions .Does anyone think that the Boulder LE still to this very day in 2012 Do you think they still, 15 years later get tips called in on this case . Again sorry this is OT but I just wanted to see what you all think about my question..

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Hey..Im sorry as this is a little OT but was something i wanted to ask in this forum and get your oppinnions .Does anyone think that the Boulder LE still to this very day in 2012 Do you think they still, 15 years later get tips called in on this case . Again sorry this is OT but I just wanted to see what you all think about my question..

One of the Denver news stations interviewed Stan Garnett for JonBenet's 21st Birthday, he said they get about 2-3 tips every week. I also know they received 800+ tips from 2009-2011.

Boulder LE also said they received 5000 tips from 1997-2008. Is it just me or does that sound like a really low number for a case that was as high-profile as this one?

 

[CanManEh]

I was thinking the same thing when you said 8ooplus in like 3 years i just heard last night i think it was that thier had been that many for baby lisa..

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I was thinking the same thing when you said 8ooplus in like 3 years i just heard last night i think it was that thier had been that many for baby lisa..

You think 800+ in 3 years is too low? Or too high? That number actually seems appropriate to me. The case might not have been in the news anymore, but it still has huge name recognition. I think a couple of tips a week seems pretty reasonable. Also since JonBenet is dead, that eliminates all the sightings of her that would come in otherwise. I really don't think this case will be solved by a tip though.

Also, whenever this case is back in the news, the media never gives the tip-line or makes it sound like the viewer watching might have information. The media has become more IDI in the past few years, but they don't make it sound like "you" could solve the case. And why not? If there was an intruder, he has family, friends, co-workers, neighbors who may have noticed strange behavior or have a suspicion, etc etc.

 

[madeleine]

If Burke is a pervert and a child molester, maybe even a killer, why hasn't he been caught doing similar deeds?

he was sent to a shrink and NOT because he was disturbed by his sister's death,on the contrary,he treated it like it was...nothing
and that's why it makes me wonder,why did he need one and for how long?