Was Burke involved?

[Camper]

Still the "clever" "well educated" R's would have more time. They gave it to themselves.
1. We will call..10:00am.
2. Do not call police.
They had plenty of time to cancel there flight arrangments and proceed with the cover up for at least 4 more hours. They could of always said they were waiting for instructions and when they recieved no call from the kidnappers they then called police.
Maybe even gotten JBR's body out of the house.

(If you believe any of that nonsense.)

--------->>>zman, interesting observation about the cancelling of flight reservations. The flight outta Dodge was with their own pilot, is that the flight you refer to?

You have brought something to light that I don't believe any of us EVER considered, I don't remember ANY of us considering that JR had called his pilot in the WEE hours of that morning to tell him that JonBenet had been kidnapped!!! THAT could have been part of the coverup. BUT BUT I don't see that calling the pilot would have been necessary IF IF they were totally out of REAL control about JonBenet REALLY REALLY having been kidnapped, am I right?

IF IF that were a fact, then why would JR have called the pilot and asked 'when the plane would be ready', AFTER the BPD had arrived. IF JonBenet had been kidnapped, why would he have to call and ask when the plane would be ready, IF IF he had already called the pilot and told him OF the kidnapping?



.

 

[Camper]

--------->>>zman, interesting observation about the cancelling of flight reservations. The flight outta Dodge was with their own pilot, is that the flight you refer to?

You have brought something to light that I don't believe any of us EVER considered, I don't remember ANY of us considering that JR had called his pilot in the WEE hours of that morning to tell him that JonBenet had been kidnapped!!! THAT could have been part of the coverup. BUT BUT I don't see that calling the pilot would have been necessary IF IF they were totally out of REAL control about JonBenet REALLY REALLY having been kidnapped, am I right?

IF IF that were a fact, then why would JR have called the pilot and asked 'when the plane would be ready', AFTER the BPD had arrived. IF JonBenet had been kidnapped, why would he have to call and ask when the plane would be ready, IF IF he had already called the pilot and told him OF the kidnapping?



.

I am quoting my self here and bumping this up, so you all can have another look.

Anyone remember what time JR called the pilot when he was overheard by BPD and kept from leaving. I donut think WE have all of the facts on 'that' telephone call. IF I recall when he was quizzed by LE, JR said something to the effect that he had something 'very important' to do in Atlanta.

MY BIG QUESTION is when did his private pilot know that JonBenet was kidnapped? WAS it in the wee hours ? WAS it when JR called AFTER BPD got to the house? WHEN was it, WE seem to not hear words from JR in the media reports or books, on WHETHER the pilot GOT the news when JR called to ask WHEN the plane would be ready.

WAS the pilot called at the same time as the BPD, and ALL of the friends. IF IF JR did not call the pilot til (refresh my memory please ?) JR made the call ASKING when the plane would be ready and IF IF it was at 10AM already when JR MADE the call to the PILOTWHY DIDN't the pilot call to ASK where in the heck they all were - they supposedly were scheduled to leave at 6 ish 7 ish

The phone did not ring at all that morning, no kidnapper, no pilot with a plane ready, no one called IF IF I remember correctly.

THEN when JR did call the PILOT, the pilot was not there to TAKE the call. The pilot called HIM back much later AS I RECALL, someone tell me if I am not correct in my memories.

Wellllllll, BlueCrab or anyone that knows, I a$$ume that the private pilot was quizzed by the Grand Jury, yes or no?

Many of you know that I believe the pilot was not there to answer the 10 am ish call from JR, cuz he was not quite back yet from taking 'someone' outta Dodge. (I was born suspicious.)

Plus some ole 'foreign faction' perp is NOT going to carefully wrap up their 'target' victim in a blanket. A drooling perp won't wrap up his victim in a white blanket either. A father might from a comfort factor or as coached by PR in her grief. MOO = My own opinion.


.

 

[Moab]

I am quoting my self here and bumping this up, so you all can have another look.

Anyone remember what time JR called the pilot when he was overheard by BPD and kept from leaving. I donut think WE have all of the facts on 'that' telephone call. IF I recall when he was quizzed by LE, JR said something to the effect that he had something 'very important' to do in Atlanta.

MY BIG QUESTION is when did his private pilot know that JonBenet was kidnapped? WAS it in the wee hours ? WAS it when JR called AFTER BPD got to the house? WHEN was it, WE seem to not hear words from JR in the media reports or books, on WHETHER the pilot GOT the news when JR called to ask WHEN the plane would be ready.

WAS the pilot called at the same time as the BPD, and ALL of the friends. IF IF JR did not call the pilot til (refresh my memory please ?) JR made the call ASKING when the plane would be ready and IF IF it was at 10AM already when JR MADE the call to the PILOTWHY DIDN't the pilot call to ASK where in the heck they all were - they supposedly were scheduled to leave at 6 ish 7 ish

The phone did not ring at all that morning, no kidnapper, no pilot with a plane ready, no one called IF IF I remember correctly.

THEN when JR did call the PILOT, the pilot was not there to TAKE the call. The pilot called HIM back much later AS I RECALL, someone tell me if I am not correct in my memories.

Wellllllll, BlueCrab or anyone that knows, I a$$ume that the private pilot was quizzed by the Grand Jury, yes or no?

Many of you know that I believe the pilot was not there to answer the 10 am ish call from JR, cuz he was not quite back yet from taking 'someone' outta Dodge. (I was born suspicious.)

Plus some ole 'foreign faction' perp is NOT going to carefully wrap up their 'target' victim in a blanket. A drooling perp won't wrap up his victim in a white blanket either. A father might from a comfort factor or as coached by PR in her grief. MOO = My own opinion.


.

This is from the DA PLANE DA PLANE thread…



The first time JR tried calling Archuletta was right after Fernie arrived at the home...PMPT paperback, page 78...

"A few minutes later, John Ramsey tried to phone his pilot, Mike Archuletta to tell him what had happened and learned that the pilot was already on his way to the airport..."


PMPT...page(s) 135

"About 10 minutes after Patsy Ramsey called 911, and three minutes after Officer French arrived at the Ramsey house, John tried to call Archulettaat the airport. Instead he reached co-pilot Bjelkovig..."


PMPT...page 136

By 6:05, the police, the Fernies, the Whites, and the Ramsey's pilots all knew about the kidnapping, though the ransom note had threatened that JonBenet would die if Ramsey informed anyone. The police were puzzled about why John Ramsey was in such a hurry to tell his pilot that his daughter had been kidnapped. When Ramsey finally talked to Archuletta that morning, he instructed the pilot not to fly to Minneapolis. Instead, Archuletta was to notify the commercial airline on which Ramsey's children were arriving from Atlanta, and leave word for them to call their father. At 1:30 pm, just 25 minutes after JonBenet's body was found, John Ramsey called Archuletta again, at his home.


She's gone, Ramsey said. They've killed her. Then he told Archuletta to ready the plane for a flight to Atlanta that evening. Fleet White then called Archulettaat 3:00pm to say that the trip to Atlanta had been canceled. Ramsey's flight plans raised more questions for the police: Why had Ramsey called Archuletta so soon after JonBenet's body was found, and why did he want to leave Boulder?"

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=647291&highlight=Archuletta#post647291

 

[eve]

capps,

I don't know where the killer is. It's just a hunch, but I don't think he's roaming free.

Can you elaborate on that BC?

Eve

 

[Camper]

Thank you Moab.

I am still not on level ground here.



Through the rest of the quotes below, we don't know for certain just when Archuletta was told of the kidnapping OR who told him, JR or co pilot Bjelkovig.

John tried to call Archuletta at the airport. Instead he reached co-pilot Bjelkovig..."

SO at this point JR had not talked to Archuletta, ONLY that he tried to reach pilot Archuletta within hearing of Fernie and company. WE know is that JR is talking on the phone to someone Mrs. A or who?

WE donut know WHAT he said to Bjelkovig about the kidnapping? HOW did Archuletta know JBR was kidnapped, JR had NOT talked directly to him at this point, and when Archuletta arrived at DA PLANE he musta talked with Bjelkovig.[/b]


My BIG question here is HAD Bjelkovig PREP the plane or READY it before Archuletta got there? OR does it take two people to READY the plane?

A checker and a co checker, remember JR was at the AIRPORT the preceding day and IF he didn't do HIS 'READY' part of READYING DA PLANE, how dumb would that have been to NOT have done a 'READY' checksheet then?


SO when JR called Archuletta later in the morning in the morning and asked him TO READY the plane for a trip to Atlanta, IS IT possible the plane was already ready? How ready must it have to be to be re - READIED?

"
PMPT...page 136

By 6:05, the police, the Fernies, the Whites, and the Ramsey's pilots all knew about the kidnapping, though the ransom note had threatened that JonBenet would die if Ramsey informed anyone. The police were puzzled about why John Ramsey was in such a hurry to tell his pilot that his daughter had been kidnapped. When Ramsey finally talked to Archuletta that morning, he instructed the pilot not to fly to Minneapolis. Instead, Archuletta was to notify the commercial airline on which Ramsey's children were arriving from Atlanta, and leave word for them to call their father. At 1:30 pm, just 25 minutes after JonBenet's body was found, John Ramsey called Archuletta again, at his home."

I personally think that JR was in a hurry to contact Archuletta to confirm that he was BACK in town. WHEN he tried to call A in the presence of Fernie etc., Archuletta was NOT available to be told anything. BlueCrab was Mrs. A called to the grand jury to testify? Was Bjelkovig in the grand jury proceedings?


WHY would the plane have to be READIED late that morning, given that the co pilot was there early, and JR had been with the plane most of Christmas day afternoon.

Why then MID morning would it be taking so LONG to ready the plane.

I donut think there is a rule about how soon a plane has to be READIED prior to taking off, just guessing. This particular plane seems to have had too many READY readings. WHY?


You are either ready or you ain't. Another big question is HOW long and WHEN was this plane fueled? How would the BPD be enabled to figure out WHEN the plane was fueled, that to me would take a fair amount of time. Donut know how many gallons his plane took, and the time frame for fueling, and how the gasoline is paid for, what records should have been in the pilot log. Did the pilot log show up in grand jury testimony.

Signing off from mushroom country. We all are still sitting here in the dark waiting for justice.




OH and sorry we have gone off the airstrip for the topic of Burke being involved, imop, he would not have wrapped JonBenet in a blanket either.


.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

There's still no evidence of Burke displaying any feelings or indications of hostility against his sister. I think that if Burke was angry enough, jealous enough, resentful enough of the attention and adoration JonBenet received to have committed this act of aggression and retribution on her, we would have heard that he acted like he had a problem with her before her death. Someone somewhere would have noticed that Burke had some amount of negative emotion towards his sister, and I have never heard anyone say that Burke ever acted as though he was really angry and jealous and resentful of his little sister. I just believe that if Burke was the one behind this, and he was only nine years old when it happened, that he would given away some indication somewhere to someone, if not most people who encountered him and his sister, that he was resentful enough to want to hurt her.

That said, I also find it strange that the Rs sent Burke over to the Whites. How did they know their other child wouldn't be attacked by the same "intruder" that attacked the first one? How did they know the "intruder" wasn't watching their house, livid that the Rs had called not only cops but every other person they knew, and was waiting for a chance to get at Burke too? Because they knew there was no intruder, so why not send Burke over to the Whites? He'll be fine...it's not like there's a killer targeting the Ramseys on the loose! They didn't seem to have much of a problem sending him back to school after Christmas either.

 

[tipper]

That said, I also find it strange that the Rs sent Burke over to the Whites. How did they know their other child wouldn't be attacked by the same "intruder" that attacked the first one? How did they know the "intruder" wasn't watching their house, livid that the Rs had called not only cops but every other person they knew, and was waiting for a chance to get at Burke too? Because they knew there was no intruder, so why not send Burke over to the Whites? He'll be fine...it's not like there's a killer targeting the Ramseys on the loose! They didn't seem to have much of a problem sending him back to school after Christmas either.

Personally I think it was better to get Burke out of the house and away from the storm, as it were. My recollection is a police officer went along with BUrke but I'm not positive on that. The Fernies and Whites didn't feel having Burke around posed a danger to their own kids. Perhaps in hindsight they all should have considered this but apparently none of them did at the time.

They were very concerned about sending him back to school (At the end of January). But which is better for him? A semi-normal routine or being kept in hiding? Arrangements were made to keep him under surveillance and he wasn't allowed to walk to and from school. What would you choose to do under similar circumstances?

 

[angelnsb]

What would you choose to do under similar circumstances?

Well, didn't Patsy herself advise the entire city via CNN that the woman in boulder better keep their babies close to them?

 

[tipper]

I saw her in that interview. She looked like she was barely able to stand - let alone function normally.

 

[narlacat]

Personally I think it was better to get Burke out of the house and away from the storm, as it were. My recollection is a police officer went along with BUrke but I'm not positive on that. The Fernies and Whites didn't feel having Burke around posed a danger to their own kids. Perhaps in hindsight they all should have considered this but apparently none of them did at the time.

They were very concerned about sending him back to school (At the end of January). But which is better for him? A semi-normal routine or being kept in hiding? Arrangements were made to keep him under surveillance and he wasn't allowed to walk to and from school. What would you choose to do under similar circumstances?

Well, I don't see how you think the Ramsey's were very concerned about sending Burke back to school. They sent him back three weeks after a 'foreign faction' had brutally killed his little sister and without any protection from LE.

 

[narlacat]

I saw her in that interview. She looked like she was barely able to stand - let alone function normally.

That's what taking drugs can do to your body.

 

[tipper]

Well, I don't see how you think the Ramsey's were very concerned about sending Burke back to school. They sent him back three weeks after a 'foreign faction' had brutally killed his little sister and without any protection from LE.

You mean because LE had demonstrated such outstanding competance and helpfulness to date?

In fact there was consultation with LE and they assured the principal the building was safe. The Ramseys hired security which the school soon deemed sent the wrong message to other kids. So the Burke watch was set up.

Read pp. 192-3 in PMPT

 

[narlacat]

I know about the Burke watch and have read PMPT.
I'm sorry, but I still think it is suspicious that they sent Burke back to school without anything but civilian protection. If that was my daughter that had been killed ( and so brutally because someone had a grudge against my husband), there is no way, no how I could let my remaining child out of my sight.
Not only did they send him back to school just three weeks after his sister's death, they let him go with people they would later accuse of murdering their daughter, on the day of her death.
That just doesnt add up in my mind.
It wasn't long after that, that Patsy said" keep your babies close". What a joke, she didnt!

 

[tipper]

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/attack_3.html?sect=7

"JonBenet's funeral took place on New Year's Eve 1996, at her parents' family church in Atlanta.

[…]

The following day they appeared on CNN.

[…]

One of the questions raised during the interview was: - "Do you believe that someone outside your home killed JonBenet?"

Patsy answered in a tearful voice: - "There is a killer on the loose, I don't know who it is, I don't know if it's a he or a she - but if I were a resident of Boulder I would tell my friends to keep their babies close to you."


She said that nearly 3 weeks before Burke returned to school (at everyone's recommendation that it was best for his well-being.)

 

[narlacat]

That's what I'm saying.
She says keep your babies close and then does the exact opposite.
Bit like the RN and the tea party on the 26th.

 

[Leve]

I don't have a set theory, but I could see Burke as the author of the ransom note because of all the plagarized parts from action flicks. I don't believe he sexually assaulted her. I think the sexual assault and the garrotte were done as part of the cover-up. From what I've read I can't see JR protecting PR or vice versa, but I could see them both protecting Burke. MOO.

 

[tipper]

I don't have a set theory, but I could see Burke as the author of the ransom note because of all the plagarized parts from action flicks. I don't believe he sexually assaulted her. I think the sexual assault and the garrotte were done as part of the cover-up. From what I've read I can't see JR protecting PR or vice versa, but I could see them both protecting Burke. MOO.

But what normal parent would sexually assault their child as part of a coverup? Drop her down the circular stair or off her balconey would seem more likely to me.

 

[Leve]

But what normal parent would sexually assault their child as part of a coverup? Drop her down the circular stair or off her balconey would seem more likely to me.

True, unless she had been sexually abused in the past and they had to cover that up as well. I really don't know, but for some reason I just can't see Burke molesting her.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Part of the reason I have a hard time seeing Burke as the author of the ransom note is because it's too much. I don't think a nine year old boy would have been that detailed and in depth. Some of the phrasing was clearly adult, and the movies plagarized were mostly R rated movies...how many of them had Burke seen at age nine?

 

[Jayelles]

True, unless she had been sexually abused in the past and they had to cover that up as well. I really don't know, but for some reason I just can't see Burke molesting her.

I'm asking this question and I don't know the answer ....

Apart from the obvious marks on the neck and potential breaking of the hyoid (sp) bone - are there any other physical differences between a victim of strangulation and a victim of suffocation?

e.g - if JonBenet had been suffocated and the garotte applied afterwards, would a coroner be able to tell this?