Was Burke involved?

[SapphireSteel]

It wasn't Burke.

The reason I say this, is because after a long night staging, everything's in place...so PR and JR made the 911 call, all very calmly (hon, we have to).

If Burke was guilty of hurting his sister, he would NOT be heard asking awkward questions in the background of that 911 call.

He would already have been schooled and sent back to bed (remember, you were asleep all night, you never heard or saw anything ok).

The fact that he piped up in the background the way he did tells me that not only was Burke NOT who they were covering for, it also tells me they actually forgot about him.

He clearly overheard something, and was questioning his parents. This would not have occurred, in my opinion, if he had been part of the crime and privy to the staging.

He would have already been coached. :cow:

 

[Nom de plume]

Well I was doing some searching, and I found a picture on FB from February 2013 where both DS and Burke commented on a picture by (I'm pretty sure) JonBenet and Burke's cousin, so it looks like the two families are still close.

So close in fact that I'd be willing to bet SS (Susan Stine) still stalks these forums defending the Rs like her life depended on it! :floorlaugh:

 

[UKGuy]

It wasn't Burke.

The reason I say this, is because after a long night staging, everything's in place...so PR and JR made the 911 call, all very calmly (hon, we have to).

If Burke was guilty of hurting his sister, he would NOT be heard asking awkward questions in the background of that 911 call.

He would already have been schooled and sent back to bed (remember, you were asleep all night, you never heard or saw anything ok).

The fact that he piped up in the background the way he did tells me that not only was Burke NOT who they were covering for, it also tells me they actually forgot about him.

He clearly overheard something, and was questioning his parents. This would not have occurred, in my opinion, if he had been part of the crime and privy to the staging.

He would have already been coached. :cow:

SapphireSteel,
Although you might be correct. Your reasoning is open to question. What if both parents and child assumed they were both involved in different versions of whatever took place?

BR: What did you find? I reckon is a confessional question, you do not need to ask if you already know.


.

 

[Cherry]

I believe he was and it's the reason for all the Ramsey's COYA behavior. I had a sibling who hated me from birth; that's just how he saw it; he was "the one" the first born; the only one. And so it is until this very day. Some siblings are born bad imo.

 

[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel,
Although you might be correct. Your reasoning is open to question. What if both parents and child assumed they were both involved in different versions of whatever took place?

BR: What did you find? I reckon is a confessional question, you do not need to ask if you already know.


.

They had spent hours staging.

The most important staging they could possibly have done, would be to brief Burke to make sure he knew exactly what he was supposed to have heard/not heard.

They hadn't done that at the time of the 911 call. Burkes question reveals to me at least, that there was no conspiracy including Burke, at that late stage.

He wasn't part of their staging, which says they weren't covering for him or even considering him.

I actually think they totally forgot about him. They were too busy worrying about staging JB. Burke was a good kid who always did as he was told so he was the least of their worries when that call was made, not Number One.

:moo:

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

There was no "they".

There was no staging for police.

 

[iluvmua]

I doubt it was Burke. I hope he is leading a productive life and I'm sorry that he did not get to see his sister grow up.

 

[chlban]

The one and only reason I don't believe Burke was involved is that they let him leave the house that morning. They could not have known for sure that he would not say something.

I know most people I have ever spoken to about the case think it was Burke. But they usually base that on the theory that it is the only thing that explains whey the parents would work together to cover it up and then stay married, because how would you ever be able to remain married to the person that killed your child?

While I also believed this early on and can absolutely see the logic, I have since researched this case alot more and knowing all I have learned about what John and Patsy were really like I can now believe they stayed together even with the knowledge they had to have had.

I just don't think they would have let him out of their sight that morning had he known anything. No matter how much you caution a nine year old how could you be sure he wouldn't let something slip?

 

[Eldee]

Has anyone ever questioned whether BR had aspergers syndrome? Has this ever been discussed?

 

[questfortrue]

The one and only reason I don't believe Burke was involved is that they let him leave the house that morning. They could not have known for sure that he would not say something.

I know most people I have ever spoken to about the case think it was Burke. But they usually base that on the theory that it is the only thing that explains whey the parents would work together to cover it up and then stay married, because how would you ever be able to remain married to the person that killed your child?

While I also believed this early on and can absolutely see the logic, I have since researched this case alot more and knowing all I have learned about what John and Patsy were really like I can now believe they stayed together even with the knowledge they had to have had.

I just don't think they would have let him out of their sight that morning had he known anything. No matter how much you caution a nine year old how could you be sure he wouldn't let something slip?

If BDI, and BDI for the whole thing, then the following theoretical scene isn’t pertinent: I can envision that the initiation of an “explosion” that night began with a sibling fight. One visualization as to what could have occurred, BR may have gotten into a fight with JB and sexually assaulted her, causing bleeding. Her scream was covered by a hand or pillow, but one or both of the parents heard the scream and came running. (I’m thinking both parents since if it had actually been an intruder, JR was the ex-navy guy to protect the family.) There may have been a truly intense scene of anger and panic and JB may have been absolutely inconsolable and hysterical. BR is sent to his room, but PR and JR are dealing with an incredibly shocking situation, and everyone is in high gear emotionally. In a setting of violence, JB is inadvertently struck, or, a lesser possibility, flung against something when they attempt to clean her up. Just a theory. moo

And yet, I agree with you. Though of course IDK, I also lean towards JDI/PDI. While the parents guarded BR for a time, witness they had someone in his classroom for a while under the guise of “protecting him from the SFF”, he was allowed to “go on with his life.” PR, OTOH, was medicated and watched carefully by JR for a couple of years after the homicide.

IMO, the Kolar theory has some gaps (e.g., I disagree with Kolar’s interpretation of the motive, describing the R’s as good folks who had no reason to harm JB.) The child abuse experts’ opinions are good enough for me: JB was a victim of sex abuse, and perhaps other kinds of abuse. Then when JB needed her parents the most, they did not get her help, in order to hide the crime/sex abuse. That is the saddest behavior of a loving parent I’ve ever heard. One could argue they thought she was already gone, so they strangled her to show evidence of an intruder.

It doesn’t fly with me. They weren’t doctors. Did they believe they knew more than an emergency doctor? What’s more important, JB or our own ‘rear.’ They answered that one.

And, if you listen to PR say, there hasn’t been any history of violence in our family I have a problem with that too. Of course, they were not constantly violent. But there was evidence of violence: First there is PR provoked in an interview and throwing a chair. It was also said she took JB into the bathroom and spanked (?) her for toileting issues (according to the housekeeper, caveate - KK says that we have to be careful about trusting details from the housekeeper). Then there is BR and JB, getting into physical sibling fights. And as far as JR goes, he had a usually controlled temper, but when he was extremely angry, his anger was described in very frightening terms – that his eyes almost turned red with anger. There was also an interesting part to his interview with MK in 1998, in which he described getting angry (jealous?) because some man named Raul phoned their house asking if PR had arrived home safely. In his anger he kicked the door. Later, after the homicide, JR assaulted a photographer/reporter outside Pasta Jay’s. They all were capable of physical displays of anger.

All strictly moo.

 

[BOESP]

There was no "they".

There was no staging for police.

I've given your theory a lot of thought Blue Bottle and agree with a lot of it but disagree with some parts. The "no staging for police" seems a logical possibility: Patsy wrote the note in hopes that John would think it was someone out to get him.

Regardless, she did what she thought would cover her behind then the rest was "left up to you John." He could deal with the aftermath of police and lawyers, which is exactly what he did.

Why they chose to go on CNN within a few days bothers me though. It was a stupid move that, based on her behavior on-air, made Patsy look even more guilty. Why did John allow it to happen?

I am not BDI in that I don't think he participated in the injuries that caused JonBenet's death. However, he may have been peripherally involved in behaviors associated with what happened.

Psychological diseases change behavior. Chemotherapy, especially the experimental kind, can do extreme things to the brain. But I'm not ready to admit Patsy knowingly did this to JonBenet although I respect your opinion and see how you could conclude it was purposeful. Obviously, Patsy's closest friends thought something was wrong or they would not have considered approaching her about the so-called "mega-JonBenet thing" (whatever that meant).

Maybe the October 11 hearing will generate enough action to bring this case to resolution.

ETA: There is still a possibility that Patsy wrote the note to assist John if he was the responsible. However, my opinion of his behavior and statements made that day suggest, to me, that he figured out what happened and could barely control his anger toward Patsy. I think it took all his mental and physical processes to keep himself in check until he could talk to her privately. Once he knew what happened, I believe he became complicit in staging the family's innocence to the public. I even wonder if Patsy would have ever told him the full truth.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I've given your theory a lot of thought Blue Bottle and agree with a lot of it but disagree with some parts. The "no staging for police" seems a logical possibility: Patsy wrote the note in hopes that John would think it was someone out to get him.

Regardless, she did what she thought would cover her behind then the rest was "left up to you John." He could deal with the aftermath of police and lawyers, which is exactly what he did.

Why they chose to go on CNN within a few days bothers me though. It was a stupid move that, based on her behavior on-air, made Patsy look even more guilty. Why did John allow it to happen?

I am not BID in that I don't think he participated in the injuries that caused JonBenet's death. However, he may have been peripherally involved in behaviors associated with what happened.

Psychological diseases change behavior. Chemotherapy, especially the experimental kind, can do extreme things to the brain. But I'm not ready to admit Patsy knowingly did this to JonBenet although I respect your opinion and see how you could conclude it was purposeful. Obviously, Patsy's closest friends thought something was wrong or they would not have considered approaching her about the so-called "mega-JonBenet thing" (whatever that meant).

Maybe the October 11 hearing will generate enough action to bring this case to resolution.

The thought that the note wasn't for police but John is absolutely brilliant and completely new for me! Thank you!

I'm gonna chew on that for a long time!!!!


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[otg]

The one and only reason I don't believe Burke was involved is that they let him leave the house that morning. They could not have known for sure that he would not say something.

I know most people I have ever spoken to about the case think it was Burke. But they usually base that on the theory that it is the only thing that explains whey the parents would work together to cover it up and then stay married, because how would you ever be able to remain married to the person that killed your child?

While I also believed this early on and can absolutely see the logic, I have since researched this case alot more and knowing all I have learned about what John and Patsy were really like I can now believe they stayed together even with the knowledge they had to have had.

I just don't think they would have let him out of their sight that morning had he known anything. No matter how much you caution a nine year old how could you be sure he wouldn't let something slip?

I understand your skepticism on this point, chlban. But it seems to run about 50/50 here (Disclaimer: Stated percentage is not the result of a scientific survey.) as to whether this decision is an indication of the R's fear of his possibly having knowledge that might be revealed by a slip of the tongue. I tend to think it was this fear that caused them to make the decision to send him away that morning. In order for you to see the other side of this question, ask yourself whether (if BR did let something slip) it would be better for it to happen in front of friends of the family or within earshot of one of the cops there in the Ramsey home that morning.

But it's a close call -- neither is a good option, and not all decisions made by the R's that day were good ones. All the same, I wouldn't let this one point be the determining factor in deciding who you might think responsible.

 

[otg]

Has anyone ever questioned whether BR had aspergers syndrome? Has this ever been discussed?

Yes. A lot. But it's still up to interpretation.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I understand your skepticism on this point, chlban. But it seems to run about 50/50 here (Disclaimer: Stated percentage is not the result of an actual survey.) as to whether this decision is an indication of the R's fear of his possibly having knowledge that might be revealed by a slip of the tongue. I tend to think it was this fear that caused them to make the decision to send him away that morning. In order for you to see the other side of this question, ask yourself whether (if BR did let something slip) it would be better for it to happen in front of friends of the family or within earshot of one of the cops there in the Ramsey home that morning.

But it's a close call -- neither is a good option, and not all decisions made by the R's that day were good ones. All the same, I wouldn't let this one point be the determining factor in deciding who you might think responsible.

I think Burke wAs somehow complicit in something. Children are very easily convinced to keep their mouths shut. sending him away was safer for them then having him around that morning.
Burke admitted to having secrets he refused to share.
Which IMO is very odd for a child that young to be so steadfast and guarded about secrets. IMO



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[chlban]

[

QUOTE=otg;9884157]I understand your skepticism on this point, chlban. But it seems to run about 50/50 here (Disclaimer: Stated percentage is not the result of a scientific survey.) as to whether this decision is an indication of the R's fear of his possibly having knowledge that might be revealed by a slip of the tongue. I tend to think it was this fear that caused them to make the decision to send him away that morning. In order for you to see the other side of this question, ask yourself whether (if BR did let something slip) it would be better for it to happen in front of friends of the family or within earshot of one of the cops there in the Ramsey home that morning.

But it's a close call -- neither is a good option, and not all decisions made by the R's that day were good ones. All the same, I wouldn't let this one point be the determining factor in deciding who you might think responsible.

[/QUOTE]

Good point about not having him say something to the police. I will have to give that some thought. Still, couldn't they have gotten Nedra or one of the sisters to come get him? Then it would make sense. I have some really close life long friends, but I wouldn't assume that they would cover up a murder for me, or my child.

I still lean to PDI. I also think she did all the staging. I know that is not really the popular theory, but I too agree that the RN was for John's benefit as well as the police. I have said before that I think John figured it out, or at least got his first clue when he saw the RN and not only recognized the writing but saw Patsy all over the note. Overdone and overdramatic. I think that is the reason he was so angry that morning. I think at least part of the reason (aside from wanting to play the tragic heroiine) that she invited everyone over so quickly was so that John would not be able to confront her.

Maybe I just think John was too smart to have been a party to that RN. It was so overdone and ludicrous. Yet if they were, in fact, covering for Burke then I think John would have been involved immediately. If Burke had done it I think Patsy would have instantly woke John up and then that ridiculous note would not have been penned.

 

[dodie20]

I've given your theory a lot of thought Blue Bottle and agree with a lot of it but disagree with some parts. The "no staging for police" seems a logical possibility: Patsy wrote the note in hopes that John would think it was someone out to get him.

Regardless, she did what she thought would cover her behind then the rest was "left up to you John." He could deal with the aftermath of police and lawyers, which is exactly what he did.

Why they chose to go on CNN within a few days bothers me though. It was a stupid move that, based on her behavior on-air, made Patsy look even more guilty. Why did John allow it to happen?

I am not BDI in that I don't think he participated in the injuries that caused JonBenet's death. However, he may have been peripherally involved in behaviors associated with what happened.

Psychological diseases change behavior. Chemotherapy, especially the experimental kind, can do extreme things to the brain. But I'm not ready to admit Patsy knowingly did this to JonBenet although I respect your opinion and see how you could conclude it was purposeful. Obviously, Patsy's closest friends thought something was wrong or they would not have considered approaching her about the so-called "mega-JonBenet thing" (whatever that meant).

Maybe the October 11 hearing will generate enough action to bring this case to resolution.

ETA: There is still a possibility that Patsy wrote the note to assist John if he was the responsible. However, my opinion of his behavior and statements made that day suggest, to me, that he figured out what happened and could barely control his anger toward Patsy. I think it took all his mental and physical processes to keep himself in check until he could talk to her privately. Once he knew what happened, I believe he became complicit in staging the family's innocence to the public. I even wonder if Patsy would have ever told him the full truth.

I agree with you, but I think PR might have had something on JR that helped keep him quiet, something he knew she would make public if he didn't support her. I doubt they ever sat down and compared notes-he just pretended to believe her and she pretended he supported her because he believed her. I think he knew PR very well and knew this was no kidnapping, and knew to check the basement. The undoing IMO, was probably done by him. Just a theory, but LE, with the exception of Arndt, never seemed to suspect him, and surely they looked at him harder than anybody. One thing that bugs me about JR, is that he said he took a sleeping pill and slept through everything. How convenient. What makes more sense, IMO, is that after he dropped the family off, he left for the night...but there has never been even a hint of this. Supposedly JB screamed loud enough for a neighbor to hear, so why didn't he hear her? IDK why exactly, but the idea of PR committing this long, drawn out abuse and murder and writing the note, makes me think she was very secure in that she wouldn't get caught in the middle of something. There doesn't seem to be much urgency here. It's like she had free reign of the house. Speaking of the note, lines like, "when you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag," read like the writer, (PR in my strong opinion), is addressing someone who isn't in the house at the time. And regardless of all the allegations and theories, as far as the crime and murder go, I see this as a 1 person show. Sorry to ramble, just thinking of theories here. moo

 

[chemgirl]

I believe (MOO) that the main reason PR and JR remained married after the death of JB was so that they could not legally be required to testify against one another....

 

[Nom de plume]

I believe (MOO) that the main reason PR and JR remained married after the death of JB was so that they could not legally be required to testify against one another....

Good point! I think they also had some "dirt" on each other.

 

[otg]

Good point about not having him say something to the police. I will have to give that some thought. Still, couldn't they have gotten Nedra or one of the sisters to come get him? Then it would make sense. I have some really close life long friends, but I wouldn't assume that they would cover up a murder for me, or my child.

Not sure, but I don’t think they had any relatives in town at the time.

I still lean to PDI. I also think she did all the staging. I know that is not really the popular theory, but I too agree that the RN was for John's benefit as well as the police. I have said before that I think John figured it out, or at least got his first clue when he saw the RN and not only recognized the writing but saw Patsy all over the note. Overdone and overdramatic. I think that is the reason he was so angry that morning. I think at least part of the reason (aside from wanting to play the tragic heroiine) that she invited everyone over so quickly was so that John would not be able to confront her.

Oh, but the PDI theory is very much popular. And why not? It’s just so easy to not like her and see things she did as suspicious.

Maybe I just think John was too smart to have been a party to that RN. It was so overdone and ludicrous. Yet if they were, in fact, covering for Burke then I think John would have been involved immediately. If Burke had done it I think Patsy would have instantly woke John up and then that ridiculous note would not have been penned.

I think JR was indeed involved from the moment her death was discovered. But then, I don’t believe either one of the parents would do something to “finish her off” or end her life if they found her injured but still alive.

The note was rewritten at least one time. Could be JR rejected the first and told her to do it over again with a little input into it by him. I don’t know what other parts of the staging he might have been busy doing at the time (there’s so much we can speculate about there), but he couldn’t do everything if they were indeed in on the staging together. Why not let Patsy write it? After all, she had a college degree in Journalism. He, OTOH, was the "executive" -- comfortable with letting others do the menial tasks like letter writing. Maybe after she finished writing it, and after JR had finished whatever he was doing, they were running out of time before they had to report her missing as part of the ruse that it was just a normal morning until they discovered her missing. Could be he thought it was close enough to his idea of a RN that they would go with it due to the time constraints.

One thing that does bother me though in trying to figure out behaviors that morning is JR’s reported “changed” behavior after he had disappeared for some length of time while the call from the SFF was still expected. But then, it is only Arndt’s recounting of the event later that tells us he appeared “ashen-faced” and “agitated” (IIRC) afterwards. And her account is made in retrospect after all else had occurred. Could it be that her recollection is a little influenced by her later conclusions?

But the one thing that tells me more than anything that all three R’s were involved and knew what was going on is the 911-call. I’ve heard for myself the voice of a small child on the recording saying the first three words of what has been reported that BPD heard on the enhanced recording. I’ve heard and seen the sound graph where the recording was intentionally erased or recorded over with ambient sound in and attempt to remove the evidence of this conversation. All three remaining R’s were awake at the time, they were colluding in the farce which was their story, and they were each playing their part in the play for the benefit of anyone who was there to witness it play out. So, for me, it comes down to answering why they would all three agree to play a part in covering up the death of JonBenet.