gramcracker
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just that it's inaccurate. BR's knife was found a few yards away, down the hall
Was Burke involved?
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This bit surely imo has the ring of truth to it.
txsvicki
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I wonder if we will ever hear any more of the evidence as the detectives age, and if nothing is ever done, or if they will keep it under wraps from now on.
I wonder if Chief Kolar would agree with this statement?
It has been substantiated that the swiss army knife was found in the cellar near JB's body.
Mama2JML
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In an interview, Chief Kolar was asked if JonBenet had been in therapy. He didn't seem to think so; "it didn't sound familiar". When asked about whether Burke had been in therapy, Kolar said BR was in therapy AFTER the murder. (TRUE CRIME RADIO, 12.23.2012)
Mama2JML
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According to?
Yes, what does this say about PR, but also, what does it say about JR? He was a parent too, and PR was really sick...she got treatments, took chemo and medications, stayed in the hospital. While she was busy trying to not die from cancer, who was taking care of the kids? I'm not trying to nitpick, but at times, it was up to JR, whether he wanted the responsibility or not. moo
About Burke's knife:
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-knives.htm
(Excerpt):
1997-04-30: Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Steve Thomas, Tom Trujillo
Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Steve Thomas, Tom Trujillo
Also present, Pat Burke, Bryan Morgan, Pete Hoffstrom, Jon Foster
April 30, 1997 - Boulder, Colorado
-------------------
ST: Patsy, once we were told that Burke at times, would walk through the house whittling and that was something that apparently got on Linda Hoffmans nerves somehow to clean up after him.
PR: Right.
ST: Was this consistent with his little pocketknife?
PR: Yeah.
ST: Hed walk through the house whittling and for the tape, Im showing Patsy a photo of a little red Swiss army knife.
PR: Right. He had one we had gotten him in Switzerland, it had his name on it. Does this have his name on it?
ST: I dont know.
PR: You dont know, OK
-------------------
(Excerpt):
1999-08-02: Red knife a Ramsey mystery
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0802rams1.shtml
August 2, 1999
Red knife a Ramsey mystery
Housekeeper who hid tool wonders how it reappeared, doubts intruder theory
By Charlie Brennan
Denver Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer
BOULDER -- John and Patsy Ramsey's former housekeeper doubts an intruder killed their daughter.
One big reason is a little red knife.
Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, who worked for the Ramseys in their home for more than a year up to the time of JonBenet Ramsey's slaying on Christmas night 1996, doesn't know who killed the child.
But she doubts a stranger broke in, snatched JonBenet from her bed, beat her, strangled her with a garrote, then left her bound with white cord in a little-used basement room to be discovered the next day by her father.
Central to Hoffmann-Pugh's skepticism is a mystery surrounding a knife she once hid -- and that JonBenet's killer may have found.
"I think it's a legitimate area of concern that she has pointed out," said one detective who has worked on the case and knows Hoffmann-Pugh's story.
JonBenet's brother Burke, 9 at the time of the murder, was in the habit of wandering around the family's Boulder home whittling with his Swiss Army knife.
He'd trail shavings behind him so often that Hoffmann-Pugh warned she'd take away the knife if he didn't become more tidy.
He didn't. About a month before JonBenet's murder, Hoffmann-Pugh made good on her threat.
"I got tired of cleaning it up," she said. "He'd been asked to do it over paper or a bag or something. So, I just put the knife up one day, in a cupboard over the sink in that area outside of JonBenet's room" on the home's second level, an area that also had a microwave and laundry facilities.
Hoffmann-Pugh never saw the knife again.
But it resurfaced.
Included in the exhaustive inventory of items removed from the house following the 10 -day police search: "red pocket knife w/broken ornament" from the family's basement.
Specifically, Detective Kerry Yamaguchi discovered Burke's knife on a countertop near a sink just down a basement corridor from the small basement room where JonBenet's body was found.
Hoffmann's-Pugh's question: How did the knife get there?
"That showed up where JonBenet was," said Hoffmann-Pugh. "I would stake my life that an intruder wouldn't know to get that out of the cupboard. Someone took that knife out of the cupboard where I put it."
-----------
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-knives.htm
(Excerpt):
1997-04-30: Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Steve Thomas, Tom Trujillo
Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Steve Thomas, Tom Trujillo
Also present, Pat Burke, Bryan Morgan, Pete Hoffstrom, Jon Foster
April 30, 1997 - Boulder, Colorado
-------------------
ST: Patsy, once we were told that Burke at times, would walk through the house whittling and that was something that apparently got on Linda Hoffmans nerves somehow to clean up after him.
PR: Right.
ST: Was this consistent with his little pocketknife?
PR: Yeah.
ST: Hed walk through the house whittling and for the tape, Im showing Patsy a photo of a little red Swiss army knife.
PR: Right. He had one we had gotten him in Switzerland, it had his name on it. Does this have his name on it?
ST: I dont know.
PR: You dont know, OK
-------------------
(Excerpt):
1999-08-02: Red knife a Ramsey mystery
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0802rams1.shtml
August 2, 1999
Red knife a Ramsey mystery
Housekeeper who hid tool wonders how it reappeared, doubts intruder theory
By Charlie Brennan
Denver Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer
BOULDER -- John and Patsy Ramsey's former housekeeper doubts an intruder killed their daughter.
One big reason is a little red knife.
Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, who worked for the Ramseys in their home for more than a year up to the time of JonBenet Ramsey's slaying on Christmas night 1996, doesn't know who killed the child.
But she doubts a stranger broke in, snatched JonBenet from her bed, beat her, strangled her with a garrote, then left her bound with white cord in a little-used basement room to be discovered the next day by her father.
Central to Hoffmann-Pugh's skepticism is a mystery surrounding a knife she once hid -- and that JonBenet's killer may have found.
"I think it's a legitimate area of concern that she has pointed out," said one detective who has worked on the case and knows Hoffmann-Pugh's story.
JonBenet's brother Burke, 9 at the time of the murder, was in the habit of wandering around the family's Boulder home whittling with his Swiss Army knife.
He'd trail shavings behind him so often that Hoffmann-Pugh warned she'd take away the knife if he didn't become more tidy.
He didn't. About a month before JonBenet's murder, Hoffmann-Pugh made good on her threat.
"I got tired of cleaning it up," she said. "He'd been asked to do it over paper or a bag or something. So, I just put the knife up one day, in a cupboard over the sink in that area outside of JonBenet's room" on the home's second level, an area that also had a microwave and laundry facilities.
Hoffmann-Pugh never saw the knife again.
But it resurfaced.
Included in the exhaustive inventory of items removed from the house following the 10 -day police search: "red pocket knife w/broken ornament" from the family's basement.
Specifically, Detective Kerry Yamaguchi discovered Burke's knife on a countertop near a sink just down a basement corridor from the small basement room where JonBenet's body was found.
Hoffmann's-Pugh's question: How did the knife get there?
"That showed up where JonBenet was," said Hoffmann-Pugh. "I would stake my life that an intruder wouldn't know to get that out of the cupboard. Someone took that knife out of the cupboard where I put it."
-----------
Tril -
Thank you for the Burke knife information.
I had never read about Burke's knife prior to your post.
This small bit of info sheds a huge light. IMO
After reading Kolar's book, this supports his inference that it was Burke. IMO
More to ponder....
Haileyscharm
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Please know this is MOO and theory of what I think happened that night. My theory is based on books,articles and interviews I have researched. I at one time was a PDI believer but some things didn't add up JMO. As a mother of two, it is hard for me to accept the BDI theory but IMO, it makes the most sense.
On the drive home from the party that evening, I believe JB was asleep in the backseat. When they arrived home JR carried her up to bed while PR got her PJ's out and turned down her bed. JR then goes up to the master bedroom takes a melatonin (as he stated) and got ready for bed. BR excited about his new toys had asked to stay up and put one together downstairs. While PR was getting JB into her Pj's, JB was awake enough and asks for a snack. PR takes JB down to the kitchen where BR meets them and is thirsty. PR gives JB a bowl of pineapple and BR a glass of tea. PR knowing she has to pack and is tried leaves JB and BR to finish up. BR asks JB to go with him down in the basement to look for presents. JB is too scared and BR tells her he will protect her. BR goes and gets a flashlight, his red Swiss Army knife and his garrote that he made. They both go down into the basement and not finding much and JB still scared , BR decides to play a mean brother joke on her. BR goes behind JB and puts the garrote around her neck choking her. Once he releases JB screams out of fear. JB knows he will get in trouble if his parents hear her, hits JB with the flashlight to make her stop. Not realizing how hard the blow was , sees what he has done and is scared. JB is still moaning and knowing his parents will come down he puts the garrote back around her neck to try and get JB to stop making noises. She stops. He takes the red Swiss Army knife out of his pocket and tosses it into the corner because he is already in trouble and does not want them to see the knife that LPH already took away. PR and JR hear the scream and the go to the basement where they find BR and JB laying lifeless. They ask BR "what did you do?" BR says he didn't mean to that they were just playing. Seeing the severity of the situation and the blood PR tells BR to grab a blanket from the dryer. After he hands it to her, they send BR up to his room and demand he stay there. PR and JR try to save JB but realize it is to late. They want help but realize how will they explain the garrote as and accident? Or that BR hit her with the flashlight as an accident? Then the thoughts of knowing BR already in therapy has (un-disclosed) issues and realize his dirty little secrets will eventually come out. They will lose all their friends, BR will be looked at as a monster, he will be ostracized in there social society, they will be looked at as bad parents and what if BR gets sent away? They have to stage this , it is the only way to save BR and JB is now gone. This is when the think of the intruder theory. They clean JB up. JR puts on new panties not realizing they are the wrong size . PR wraps JB's body in the blanket because it is cold and dark down in the basement. She loves JB and it is the last motherly thing she can do. PR and JR then go to BR's room where they tell him JB is alive and give him a tongue lashing of his life. PR gives BR a sleep aid so they can finish trying to cover up this horrible accident. This is where they come up with the RN. PR writes it with the help of JR. First she messes up and starts over. The RN is confusing which is what they want, except they put in JR exact bonus amount. So tired and emotionally exhausted, they have tried to cover all traces but simply cannot and do the best to stage this. Up all night they know JB is in the basement and they have to call police because they are now victims of a crime and have to play the part. Before the call is made they wake BR and tell him something terrible has happened to JB. They tell him that an intruder or group of people came in after they put JB back to bed ( after saving her from BR's damage) and took her. They do this to take away the thought from BR so he will not carry the emotional guilt of killing JB (even if it was child's play gone wrong) and putting this new theory in his head to try and erase the actual fact BR caused this. PR calls 911 and so frantic forgets to hang up once the call has ended. In the tape they hear a young voice ask "what did you find?" IMO it is BR asking this because PR is holding the RN. Angry JR is then heard saying we are not speaking to you. They remind BR he is Never to speak of what happened between him and JB for he could be sent away and not have friends and toys to play with. That if he speaks they will think he did it and that is what will happen . That is why I believe they sent BR with FW that morning because they did not want him questioned and they informed him of their new scenario so no need for him to ask questions.
This theory again was MOO. If it seems illogical there is always a logical explanation.
On the drive home from the party that evening, I believe JB was asleep in the backseat. When they arrived home JR carried her up to bed while PR got her PJ's out and turned down her bed. JR then goes up to the master bedroom takes a melatonin (as he stated) and got ready for bed. BR excited about his new toys had asked to stay up and put one together downstairs. While PR was getting JB into her Pj's, JB was awake enough and asks for a snack. PR takes JB down to the kitchen where BR meets them and is thirsty. PR gives JB a bowl of pineapple and BR a glass of tea. PR knowing she has to pack and is tried leaves JB and BR to finish up. BR asks JB to go with him down in the basement to look for presents. JB is too scared and BR tells her he will protect her. BR goes and gets a flashlight, his red Swiss Army knife and his garrote that he made. They both go down into the basement and not finding much and JB still scared , BR decides to play a mean brother joke on her. BR goes behind JB and puts the garrote around her neck choking her. Once he releases JB screams out of fear. JB knows he will get in trouble if his parents hear her, hits JB with the flashlight to make her stop. Not realizing how hard the blow was , sees what he has done and is scared. JB is still moaning and knowing his parents will come down he puts the garrote back around her neck to try and get JB to stop making noises. She stops. He takes the red Swiss Army knife out of his pocket and tosses it into the corner because he is already in trouble and does not want them to see the knife that LPH already took away. PR and JR hear the scream and the go to the basement where they find BR and JB laying lifeless. They ask BR "what did you do?" BR says he didn't mean to that they were just playing. Seeing the severity of the situation and the blood PR tells BR to grab a blanket from the dryer. After he hands it to her, they send BR up to his room and demand he stay there. PR and JR try to save JB but realize it is to late. They want help but realize how will they explain the garrote as and accident? Or that BR hit her with the flashlight as an accident? Then the thoughts of knowing BR already in therapy has (un-disclosed) issues and realize his dirty little secrets will eventually come out. They will lose all their friends, BR will be looked at as a monster, he will be ostracized in there social society, they will be looked at as bad parents and what if BR gets sent away? They have to stage this , it is the only way to save BR and JB is now gone. This is when the think of the intruder theory. They clean JB up. JR puts on new panties not realizing they are the wrong size . PR wraps JB's body in the blanket because it is cold and dark down in the basement. She loves JB and it is the last motherly thing she can do. PR and JR then go to BR's room where they tell him JB is alive and give him a tongue lashing of his life. PR gives BR a sleep aid so they can finish trying to cover up this horrible accident. This is where they come up with the RN. PR writes it with the help of JR. First she messes up and starts over. The RN is confusing which is what they want, except they put in JR exact bonus amount. So tired and emotionally exhausted, they have tried to cover all traces but simply cannot and do the best to stage this. Up all night they know JB is in the basement and they have to call police because they are now victims of a crime and have to play the part. Before the call is made they wake BR and tell him something terrible has happened to JB. They tell him that an intruder or group of people came in after they put JB back to bed ( after saving her from BR's damage) and took her. They do this to take away the thought from BR so he will not carry the emotional guilt of killing JB (even if it was child's play gone wrong) and putting this new theory in his head to try and erase the actual fact BR caused this. PR calls 911 and so frantic forgets to hang up once the call has ended. In the tape they hear a young voice ask "what did you find?" IMO it is BR asking this because PR is holding the RN. Angry JR is then heard saying we are not speaking to you. They remind BR he is Never to speak of what happened between him and JB for he could be sent away and not have friends and toys to play with. That if he speaks they will think he did it and that is what will happen . That is why I believe they sent BR with FW that morning because they did not want him questioned and they informed him of their new scenario so no need for him to ask questions.
This theory again was MOO. If it seems illogical there is always a logical explanation.
I agree, Sandstorm. Here's a bit more pertaining to the knife:
Snips from a Natl Enquirer article posted by koldkase at FFJ: [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10244"]http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10244[/ame]
"The doctor asked him what he thought had happened to his sister - and Burke became irritated for the first time during the interview," an insider revealed to the ENQUIRER.
"Then he blurted out, 'I know what happened. She was killed. Someone took her quietly and took her down in the basement...took a knife out...hit her on the head."
~~
Police now believe that Burke's knife was used to cut black duct tape that gagged JonBenét.
~~
Haileyscharm Haileyscharm is online now
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My theory...
Please know this is MOO and theory of what I think happened that night. My theory is based on books,articles and interviews I have researched. I at one time was a PDI believer but some things didn't add up JMO. As a mother of two, it is hard for me to accept the BDI theory but IMO, it makes the most sense.
Snipped
***************************************************************************
Haileyscharm - thank you for sharing your thoughtful theory.
It makes a lot of sense.
IMO the parents did cover up for Burke.
However, the thing that puzzles me and I didnt see where you addressed it is the
vaginal trauma.
Who did that to her?
How could her parents bring themselves to stage that? I mean, it would be more than I could do to handle my dead child's body in the staging. So how could her parents stage vaginal trauma to their child's body?
That is most unthinkable, and I cannot put the sexual trauma scenario into any context except to think that BR is responsible ....
IMO
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Join Date: Nov 2013
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My theory...
Please know this is MOO and theory of what I think happened that night. My theory is based on books,articles and interviews I have researched. I at one time was a PDI believer but some things didn't add up JMO. As a mother of two, it is hard for me to accept the BDI theory but IMO, it makes the most sense.
Snipped
***************************************************************************
Haileyscharm - thank you for sharing your thoughtful theory.
It makes a lot of sense.
IMO the parents did cover up for Burke.
However, the thing that puzzles me and I didnt see where you addressed it is the
vaginal trauma.
Who did that to her?
How could her parents bring themselves to stage that? I mean, it would be more than I could do to handle my dead child's body in the staging. So how could her parents stage vaginal trauma to their child's body?
That is most unthinkable, and I cannot put the sexual trauma scenario into any context except to think that BR is responsible ....
IMO
Haileyscharm
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Your right I didn't put it in my theory in the basement incident. While IMO and I truly believe BR was molesting JB at times, he didn't down there. What I have thought all along is BR was being molested too and was acting out by smearing feces , playing doctor with JB and as a former housekeeper stated caught BR and another Boy with there pants down. I believe PR and JR were in denial about BR possibly being molested and knew he was doing things to JB and passed it off as siblings just experimenting. When JB started showing physical signs and all the trips JB had to the doctor and school nurse, they realized BR needed help as with his other issues and why the sought professional help for him. It was too much for them to deal with. Again IMO I have thought BR made that garrote previously and could have brought that to the W's house to show his friends at the party. There is where I think BR and some boys could have played doctor with JB and used that to touch her. I think that when PR and JR found JB in the basement that is what they assumed because BR has done that in the past and did see some blood in her underwear and changed it for fear BR's DNA could be on the old pair from earlier that night. I can't imagine PR and JR doing that or that BR did it in the basement. I think it was done at the party. While I am no expert on this case and nothing about this case makes sense...it is only MOO.
gramcracker
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PR minimized the golf club incident in her '98 interview. first, she mis-stated BR's age by saying he was two, or two and a half, or three years old in '93 when it happened - "it was our first summer there" (in Charlevoix); second, she said she couldn't remember which side of JB's face was injured even though it resulted in "a good old black eye for a while" and the ER treatment was followed by a visit to a plastic surgeon
I had forgotten that BR told the GJ he had a pair of Hi-Tec boots in '96
I had forgotten that BR told the GJ he had a pair of Hi-Tec boots in '96
You're right, Gramcracker. If BR was 2-3 years old, JB would have been a newborn-1 year old. She was 6 1/2 and BR was almost 10 when she died. With over 3 years between them, she wasn't even born when BR was 2-2 1/2. From the description of the incident, JB was at least a toddler, which would have made BR about 5-6 years old.
gramcracker
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yes. a six-year-old whacking a three-year-old is much different than a three-year-old whacking an infant. six is much closer to the age of reason than three is
I do not for one minute believe that it was such a teeny tiny minor incident that she who worshipped all things related to physical appearance didn't remember which of the little beauty queen's cheeks was cut and which eye was blackened. a plastic surgeon isn't required for teeny tiny minor
PR did "ditzy" when it suited her purpose during interviews/depos/etc, but in reality she had a mind like a steel trap. reading her responses is like reading the words of two different people, and it is all related to the topic and how she's selling the topic. one PR is: like, kind of, sort of, I mean, I don't, um, I think, maybe, rambling all over the place, and really? and the other PR is: don't go there, buddy!
she didn't re-write history/minimize that golf club incident w/o a reason for doing so
I do not for one minute believe that it was such a teeny tiny minor incident that she who worshipped all things related to physical appearance didn't remember which of the little beauty queen's cheeks was cut and which eye was blackened. a plastic surgeon isn't required for teeny tiny minor
PR did "ditzy" when it suited her purpose during interviews/depos/etc, but in reality she had a mind like a steel trap. reading her responses is like reading the words of two different people, and it is all related to the topic and how she's selling the topic. one PR is: like, kind of, sort of, I mean, I don't, um, I think, maybe, rambling all over the place, and really? and the other PR is: don't go there, buddy!
she didn't re-write history/minimize that golf club incident w/o a reason for doing so
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Partial post by gramcracker:
And those devices worked pretty well -- she did pretty dayam good with her life, IMO. And it worked for her in the biggest part she had ever played as well -- the torn-up, grieving and helpless mother of a dead child.
Gramcracker, you really nailed it in the quote above. PR grew up in a middle-class family and she prolly knew she would get few favors without some effort on her part. She did as much as she could with her good looks -- which helped a lot in a lot of situations, IMO, but she also figured out how to "act"/react in situations as well. She was smart enuff not to say, "The dog ate my homework," but she hemmed and hawed and sweet-talked and "Oh, my goodness!" her way out of many situations, and in others she stood tall, snapped and had fire in her eyes. No dummy, that one, gramcracker!
And those devices worked pretty well -- she did pretty dayam good with her life, IMO. And it worked for her in the biggest part she had ever played as well -- the torn-up, grieving and helpless mother of a dead child.
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