Was JonBenet feeling sick Christmas day and if so why would the R's deny this?

[DeeDee249]

There was a videotape of Christmas morning 1993 and 1994 so why not 1996? I have a theory that the video was erased because there was something or someone on there that the Ramseys didn't want others to see. And like you said, if the camcorder wasn't charged, then why aren't there more pictures besides just the two?

I believe that there was pictures taken of JonBenet at the White's Christmas party, but they have never been released to the media or the public.

I know we are all "Monday Morning Quarterbacks" here, but one of the things that could have been done was for LE to actually check the battery of the video camera to see if it had a dead battery as JR said it did. Between all the activities of the day, going to the White's, dropping off the gifts on the way home and staging the death of their daughter to look like a kidnapping, there shouldn't have been time to charge the camera.
I also find the lack of video/photos suspicious. This ties in with JR hiring a lawyer for his older son (JAR) and his ex-wife (JAR's mother) who lived in Georgia. JAR was alleged to be with his mother Christmas day/night, though there is no proof of that. The ex-wife was never a suspect by any means, and there was no good reason for her to have her own lawyer. To me, the only reason was to prevent her from having to be questioned about her son's presence that day/night and to provide (if possible) any photographs or videos corroborating his presence there. There was supposedly a movie ticket in his coat pocket, but not for that day. There was also a grainy ATM photo showing a young man, but there was a baseball cap down over his eyes and frankly, it is impossible to tell if it was him. In desperate circumstances, I could imagine him making a phone call to a friend to go to an ATM and use his card (which may have been left in Georgia or there was a duplicate left there for when he was home or so that his mom could use it to deposit funds. I did the same thing when my child was in college. There were 2 ATM/Debit cards and kept one at home and she had one with her at college.
That's why ALL the Rs cell phone/phone records were so important. Did he call someone? Who? Was there a duplicate card? Were there "middle of the night" phone calls on ANY of their cells or phones? We'll never know, because it wasn't able to be investigated.

 

[Toltec]

10 Q. (By Mr. Levin) It was brought to

11 my attention fairly recently that a woman I

12 believe named Jean Fortier, F-o-r-t-i-e-r, for

13 the reporter, who are the parents of some

14 children who were over your house on

15 Christmas, and they, they, she, excuse me,

16 said that her children reported to her at

17 Christmas day when they went over to play,

18 they played with Burke but that JonBenet did

19 not play because she was sick. I hadn't

20 heard that before. Is that nonsense?

21 A. Absolutely. I don't know who

22 that is, but we had a whole parcel of kids

23 there all day


I don't believe JonBenet was sick, but Patsy did tell the two little girls that JonBenet was too ill to play with them.

These are the two little girls...(these are Patsy's words) the heavy-set one, and the one that was dark-skinned. Patsy claimed they might have been adopted. Patsy did not want JonBenet to associate with these girls for the reason being that these girls were not white.

Remember her answer when asked if there were concerns regarding strangers around her neighborhood? She said that she was concerned because there was a group of black children selling candy and she didn't think they were from Denver.

Now for the life of me, why would anyone be concerned about black children selling candy? My belief is that Patsy was a racist...period.

 

[Agatha_C]

Did she think they bussed them in from Compton California, to scope out little white rich girls? For crying out loud, maybe the lawn jockey should have been the racist clue.

This is sad to say being that I live in a Southern state and I love it here, but old habits die hard in the South. I will however say, that hatred goes both ways and prejudice is not just one sided. I was not born here and do not share the hatred view with others. I love all people and exactly for the reason that none of us are the same.

It would not surprise me, if Patsy was a creature of old habits being steeped in Southern tradition and ignorance.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Patsy was a few years older than I am (not many, though) and while I was born and raised in the South, her obvious racism sickens me. I had not heard about these comments until Agatha's post and I really don't have the words to explain how I feel about them, but I will say this; they pretty much confirm what I have thought about Patsy Ramsey for a long time! God help her even though it's way too late now. Wonder what she thought when she realized that there are folks in Heaven of every color? Never mind, she probably doesn't have a clue!

 

[Agatha_C]

Did she think they bussed them in from Compton California, to scope out little white rich girls? For crying out loud, maybe the lawn jockey should have been the racist clue.

This is sad to say being that I live in a Southern state and I love it here, but old habits die hard in the South. I will however say, that hatred goes both ways and prejudice is not just one sided. I was not born here and do not share the hatred view with others. I love all people and exactly for the reason that none of us are the same.

It would not surprise me, if Patsy was a creature of old habits being steeped in Southern tradition and ignorance.

After reading this I feel I should correct something. Not all Southerners are racist and I did not mean to imply such, yet fear I may have. The majority of my children were born in the South. I also have a house that looks like Disney's small world...LOL.. In our house there is every shape, size and color...LOL.. I love it! I also dare anyone to hate on my babies for any reason.

Just had to set that straight.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Agatha, please don't worry that you offended me. Anyone who knows me also knows that I'm not a racist (I hope you know me better than that). Honestly, with Patsy being from Atlanta, I'm truly amazed that she would speak that way. Who, exactly, did this woman think she was? Rich, white trash is my opinion!!!!!

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Here is the transcript where she talks about the door to door candy sales:

TT: Okay. Patsy, are there any concerns in the neighborhood up there or have there been any concerns in the neighborhood up there (sound of flipping pages drowns out Tom’s voice.) . . .door to door salesman. Any of your neighbors talk about prowlers anything like that over the last six months?

PR: Uh no. Not that I recall. I mean we did have door to door sales people occasionally.
TT: Um hum. Magazine sales, the typical sales people come (inaudible) come through.

PR: Yeah, sometimes children, you know, like a, um, black children. I mean, they don’t look like they’re from my neighborhood or nothing, or look, you know like they’re from Denver and they have candy bars of (inaudible). . .

 

[DeeDee249]

While Patsy's comments sound racist, I bet she'd never have thought of herself that way. She very likely never had much contact with those of a different race. You'd be surprised how many people really are like that. They avoid, dislike/distrust the unfamiliar but even making those kind of comments would never think of themselves as racist.

 

[wonderllama]

Xenophobic perhaps?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Her comment says, "They don't look like they're from my neighborhood. They look like they're from Denver," The Ramseys' neighborhood is wealthy, and while Denver is a nice city, it has parts that aren't so nice, just like every big city. I'm thinking that Patsy was classist, and was probably not too fond of black children from Denver, the same way she wouldn't be too fond of white children who live in trailer parks.

 

[joeskidbeck]

respectfully snipped and BBM:

I mean, they don’t look like they’re from my neighborhood or nothing, or look, you know like they’re from Denver and they have candy bars of (inaudible). . .

If this is the grammar of someone with a degree in journalism, how in the world did anyone question who authored the rn? I can understand spelling errors (everyone makes them) but the sentence above makes me cringe.

 

[Unreals]

So there were two nonwhite girls who wanted to play with Jonbenet, and Patsy made up the excuse that she was sick? Am I right in assuming that these girls were unknown to the family? Were they also unknown to Jonbenet?

I have to defend Patsy on this one. If two kids I didn't know showed up to my house on Christmas Day, I don't think I'd necessarily want my child playing with them, either, especially if I already had a house full of guests. Also, we have to consider if Patsy perhaps asked Jonbenet (presumably out of ear shot of these kids) if she wanted to play with them, and Jonbenet understandably wanted to keep playing with the other kids in the house (who were more familiar to her).

Maybe I don't understand the situation clearly. At any rate, I would venture that Patsy was like most upper class people, a decided snob. Race aside, my guess is that she would have accepted kids of any ethnicity as long as the parents "fit in" to the community. In other words, had a lot of money and were accepted by everyone else.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Did these girls knock on the Ramsey door in order to sell candy bars or to request that Jonbenet come out and play? This really sounds to me like Patsy was trying to throw someone else in the mix for that big old bus. The comments make her sound like a racist no matter the context. The girls were either from the neighborhood and wanted to play or they were selling candy bars and probably didn't know or care to play with JonBenet. There's also the probability that they didn't even exist. This is PatsyLand, after all.

 

[DeeDee249]

Did these girls knock on the Ramsey door in order to sell candy bars or to request that Jonbenet come out and play? This really sounds to me like Patsy was trying to throw someone else in the mix for that big old bus. The comments make her sound like a racist no matter the context. The girls were either from the neighborhood and wanted to play or they were selling candy bars and probably didn't know or care to play with JonBenet. There's also the probability that they didn't even exist. This is PatsyLand, after all.

I agree. We don't know if there WERE children who called for JB that day. I wouldn't let my young child play with kids I didn't know no matter what color they were, in or outside the house.
I also feel with Patsy it was much more of a "class" or socioeconomic thing. I think she felt LHP was beneath her as well. Patsy isn't alone in this. Many people in her situation feel the same. And the Rs were by no means "upper class". They were decidedly "middle class with money". Our class system here isn't based on peerage or birth. Ours is based on wealth. The Rs would be considered "nouveau riche". JR earned his fortune. He wasn't a member of the "landed gentry" with generations of inherited wealth and huge estates. The "Upper Class" would not have thought of them as one of their own, though they may have been able to afford the same things or belonged to the same clubs.

Minority children sold candy in my old neighborhood, too. They used to be driven into the more affluent suburbs and simply left there. No water, no food (except the candy bars) no access to bathrooms. Then, hours later, vans would come and pick them up.
I don't think it is racist for a parent not to allow strange kids to play with their child. It isn't because they are not white. It is because I do not know them or their families. Even if they lived in my neighborhood, if I didn't know them, they ain't gettin' in.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

What about celebrities? The majority of them acquired their wealth throughout their entertainment career, and although they aren't "Old Money" like Rockefeller/Vanderbilt/Kennedy, are they considered "middle class with money" too?

 

[DeeDee249]

What about celebrities? The majority of them acquired their wealth throughout their entertainment career, and although they aren't "Old Money" like Rockefeller/Vanderbilt/Kennedy, are they considered "middle class with money" too?

If you were to ask someone like, lets' say a Vanderbilt, etc., yes- they (celebrities) would be considered middle class with money, lots of money. Sports figures get astronomically high salaries, rock stars too. It isn't the dollars in the bank. It's the bloodlines. I'm talking OLD money. Generations of it.
The Brits here have to know what I am talking about, though in past centuries, those with enough wealth could purchase a title or peerage.
Having lots of money doesn't give you class. Being a celebrity doesn't give you class or make you upper-class. Ever watch "The Kardashians?" or "Jersey Shore"?

 

[UKGuy]

Just noticed this as I was looking for something else:

25 Q. Mr. Ramsey, to follow up on the
0086
1 neighborhood, it was brought to my
2 attention --
3 THE WITNESS: Do we want an
4 answer to that question or not?
5 MR. WOOD: If you all make your
6 list, add that to the list when all is said
7 and done, and I will consider it and get you
8 an answer if it is appropriate. It probably
9 will be.
10 Q. (By Mr. Levin) It was brought to
11 my attention fairly recently that a woman I
12 believe named Jean Fortier, F-o-r-t-i-e-r, for
13 the reporter, who are the parents of some
14 children who were over your house on
15 Christmas, and they, they, she, excuse me,
16 said that her children reported to her at
17 Christmas day when they went over to play,
18 they played with Burke but that JonBenet did
19 not play because she was sick. I hadn't
20 heard that before. Is that nonsense?
21 A. Absolutely. I don't know who
22 that is, but we had a whole parcel of kids
23 there all day.
24 MR. KANE: I have to bolt.
25 MR. LEVIN: Do you have anything
0087
1 left?
2 MR. KANE: No.
3 MR. LEVIN: Mike's got to catch a
4 plane.
5 (WHEREUPON, Mr. Kane left the
6 interview.)
7 Q. (By Chief Beckner) What about
8 your relationship with John and Barbara
9 Furnham --

 

[CathyR]

John does not know who Jean Fortier is.

Is she a neighbor? Is she guest of an acquaintance? Who is this woman?


Patsy may have been aware that black children are often exploited in these candy bars fund raisers. She may have given that answer as she knows the adults are the type who prey on children. Looking back at her daughter being murdered she says that as known child exploiters have been in her area. She thought they may have been out of Denver. If she is looking for candidates to throw under the bus then known criminal behavior involving children in your neighborhood might be a good candidate.

 

[Agatha_C]

John does not know who Jean Fortier is.

Is she a neighbor? Is she guest of an acquaintance? Who is this woman?


Patsy may have been aware that black children are often exploited in these candy bars fund raisers. She may have given that answer as she knows the adults are the type who prey on children. Looking back at her daughter being murdered she says that as known child exploiters have been in her area. She thought they may have been out of Denver. If she is looking for candidates to throw under the bus then known criminal behavior involving children in your neighborhood might be a good candidate.

CathyR, I have fostered and adopted children of another race, am I too understand that when we sell candy for the school that I am seen as exploiting my daughters? Help me to please understand what you meant in the above paragraph. See I have respect for you and your views, but this I cant wrap my head around. All schools and all the students that attend them sell candy and what nots, why is it only the children of color that are being exploited?

I truly am not looking for confrontation, I simply wish to understand this. Thank you...

 

[DeeDee249]

CathyR, I have fostered and adopted children of another race, am I too understand that when we sell candy for the school that I am seen as exploiting my daughters? Help me to please understand what you meant in the above paragraph. See I have respect for you and your views, but this I cant wrap my head around. All schools and all the students that attend them sell candy and what nots, why is it only the children of color that are being exploited?

I truly am not looking for confrontation, I simply wish to understand this. Thank you...

Agatha, I don't mean to speak for Cathy, but I don't think the candy sales done by schools are what she meant. Where I used to live, some minority kids WERE exploited- I don't know who was benefitting from these candy sales, but these poor kids were dropped off by vans in other towns with no food, water, and no access to bathrooms, in some cases, for 10-12 hours, with a cellphone and these huge cardboard boxes of candy (usually M & Ms) and told not to call to be picked up until all the candy was sold. Sometimes the police would pick them up and take them in to the station until an adult could come and get them. These were pretty young kids, too, around 10-12 years old. Maybe this isn't common in every area, but where I lived it was. But this isn't the same thing at ALL as the school or scout or club sponsored candy sales we have all participated in with our kids at some point.