Was the Ramsey house typically a mess?

[GRT]

That's you though, and I presume you're an adult.

A child may not, especially one brought up in a house that seems a bit chaotic. Where nobody seemed to bother about faeces smeared around etc. That alone would suggest to me that the children were not being taught to clean or tidy. Children learn a lot by example.
MOO

If I wanted to get a child out of the way for a little while, I'd suggest they did something fun in their room - played with a specific toy or read a book.

You're right, a child brought up in a messy home might not clean it if sent to do so. I can see that happening. But, BR might have been a bit tidier than his family members. Now, that we know FW made the bed, the whole theory is blown but I do agree about kids and their behavior.

 

[GRT]

It's certainly not impossible. She liked to sleep in his room, usually after wetting her own bed.

But Smit said she hadn't wet her bed the night she was killed.

 

[Choices]

I recall reading that the Ramsey house was typically a mess with clutter and things left lying about.
The children were said to have just left toys where they were and dropped clothing on the floor.

Why do we find Burke's bed made and his bedroom look pretty normal on the day she was discovered?

It would seem that if an ordinarily disheveled room is suddenly normalized, there has to be a reason.
Could it be to draw attention away from that room as a potential crime scene?

Friends of the family who were called over right after, by way of helping, perhaps made his bed. Weren't they said to have wiped up in the kitchen at some point.

 

[CloudedTruth]

But Smit said she hadn't wet her bed the night she was killed.

I didn’t say she wet the bed that night, I simply pointed out that when she did, she often then went to sleep in BR’s room. Sleeping in BR’s room was not uncommon.

 

[GRT]

Friends of the family who were called over right after, by way of helping, perhaps made his bed. Weren't they said to have wiped up in the kitchen at some point.

I think there was a lot of disturbance of the crime scene by friends, family members, and law enforcement.

 

[Gunther Toody]

I think there was a lot of disturbance of the crime scene by friends, family members, and law enforcement.

Doesn't it seem odd that acquaintances would go into a kids bedroom and make a bed?
I would think it very creepy if I found someone doing that in my home.

Also, does anyone know if JBR's bedroom door was closed or open when PR first passed it that morning?

 

[GRT]

Doesn't it seem odd that acquaintances would go into a kids bedroom and make a bed?
I would think it very creepy if I found someone doing that in my home.

Also, does anyone know if JBR's bedroom door was closed or open when PR first passed it that morning?

From what I understand, the Ramseys were close friends with the Whites at that time, and they had kids who were close in age that stayed at one another's homes.

Since Fleet was picking up Burke to take him to the White household, it doesn't seem odd to me that Fleet would be in Burke's room, helping him gather the belongings he wanted to take with. And Fleet probably wanted to be helpful during a horrible situation, so I don't think it would be unusual for him to make the bed (it was still kind of sloppy) or maybe pick up a few toys, etc.

I don't see anything creepy about friends helping friends when tragedies occur. Or even at other times. I think being helpful is a virtue, not something to feel creeped out about. But, that's just me.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Doesn't it seem odd that acquaintances would go into a kids bedroom and make a bed?
I would think it very creepy if I found someone doing that in my home.

Also, does anyone know if JBR's bedroom door was closed or open when PR first passed it that morning?

In the interview that PR gave to police in 1997 and asked if the door was opened or closed, she says nothing struck her as unusual, and that she thinks it was open just a little bit like she would have left it. She goes on to say that's how she normally slept, with the door just a little bit open. She later says that she pushed the door open after running back upstairs after finding the RN.

 

[Meara]

From what I understand, the Ramseys were close friends with the Whites at that time, and they had kids who were close in age that stayed at one another's homes.

Since Fleet was picking up Burke to take him to the White household, it doesn't seem odd to me that Fleet would be in Burke's room, helping him gather the belongings he wanted to take with. And Fleet probably wanted to be helpful during a horrible situation, so I don't think it would be unusual for him to make the bed (it was still kind of sloppy) or maybe pick up a few toys, etc.

I don't see anything creepy about friends helping friends when tragedies occur. Or even at other times. I think being helpful is a virtue, not something to feel creeped out about. But, that's just me.

I agree that close friends might try to help in any way they could, especially friends who also had young children. Also, Fleet White sometimes babysat the White and Ramsey children together, and the other parents teasingly called him Mr. Mom. It doesn't seem out of the ordinary to me that he would make BR's bed on that particular morning. If PR and JR had wanted to alter the appearance of the room, they probably would have done it before calling 911 and friends. However, none of this rules out the possibility that he changed some things in the room at JR's request without knowing the reason for the request.

 

[Gunther Toody]

In the interview that PR gave to police in 1997 and asked if the door was opened or closed, she says nothing struck her as unusual, and that she thinks it was open just a little bit like she would have left it. She goes on to say that's how she normally slept, with the door just a little bit open. She later says that she pushed the door open after running back upstairs after finding the RN.

Are we to believe then that an intruder, who was supposed to have carried an unconscious JBR out of her bedroom with both arms, somehow managed to close the door to a "little bit" while holding her?
Why would he or she do that?

 

[CloudedTruth]

Are we to believe then that an intruder, who was supposed to have carried an unconscious JBR out of her bedroom with both arms, somehow managed to close the door to a "little bit" while holding her?
Why would he or she do that?

If she was asleep, I would think picking her up and taking her out of her bed probably would have woken her up. Using a stun gun on her would have awakened her (another reason why I don’t believe there was a stun gun) but not rendered her unconscious. Stun guns cannot / do not do that. Stun guns are noisy and cause pain. She would have cried out. She would have been squirming around.

We also know from the autopsy she was awake and eating pineapple well after the R’s claimed she was asleep. BR we know by his own admission was also awake after the R’s said he was asleep.

For me, none of the intruder theory rings true.

 

[Choices]

If she was asleep, I would think picking her up and taking her out of her bed probably would have woken her up. Using a stun gun on her would have awakened her (another reason why I don’t believe there was a stun gun) but not rendered her unconscious. Stun guns cannot / do not do that. Stun guns are noisy and cause pain. She would have cried out. She would have been squirming around.

We also know from the autopsy she was awake and eating pineapple well after the R’s claimed she was asleep. BR we know by his own admission was also awake after the R’s said he was asleep.

For me, none of the intruder theory rings true.

JB was "zonked" apparently and if she had her sleep interrupted in between on the journey home, it might have made her more tired I guess. I write this while thinking of the inconsistencies I've heard. I've got to watch more of their interviews etc.
Maybe it was a taser. Not sure if it was LS who demonstrated using a stun gun held against a cushion and it muffled the sound somewhat. They think it possible that a young child might respond differently (rendered unconscious) but they obviously can't test for this.
The pineapple could be from earlier in the night at the party. The description of the contents of the GI tract varied from being called "mucous material without particulate matter identified" in the stomach, to "apparent fruit..material which may represent fragments of pineapple" - the latter may mean in the small intestine (the wording is a bit poor, imo, or else it's my lack of comprehension). The colour also varied (undigested "yellow" pineapple reaching the SI?).

Are we to believe then that an intruder, who was supposed to have carried an unconscious JBR out of her bedroom with both arms, somehow managed to close the door to a "little bit" while holding her?
Why would he or she do that?

I think its possible so as not to make it obvious something is amiss, if one of the parents got up and walked past. I was thinking of the thread you posted about the spiral staircase, and whoa, how'd he manage that.
I too do not think a friend making Burke's bed is creepy, given the circumstances.

 

[CloudedTruth]

JB was "zonked" apparently and if she had her sleep interrupted in between on the journey home, it might have made her more tired I guess. I write this while thinking of the inconsistencies I've heard. I've got to watch more of their interviews etc.
Maybe it was a taser. Not sure if it was LS who demonstrated using a stun gun held against a cushion and it muffled the sound somewhat. They think it possible that a young child might respond differently (rendered unconscious) but they obviously can't test for this.
The pineapple could be from earlier in the night at the party. The description of the contents of the GI tract varied from being called "mucous material without particulate matter identified" in the stomach, to "apparent fruit..material which may represent fragments of pineapple" - the latter may mean in the small intestine (the wording is a bit poor, imo, or else it's my lack of comprehension). The colour also varied (undigested "yellow" pineapple reaching the SI?).

I think its possible so as not to make it obvious something is amiss, if one of the parents got up and walked past. I was thinking of the thread you posted about the spiral staircase, and whoa, how'd he manage that.
I too do not think a friend making Burke's bed is creepy, given the circumstances.

"Apparently" is the operative word here. The problem is, the R's have told different versions of the story of when they got home that night and what occurred after they did arrive home. The discovery of the pineapple in JBR's digestive system pretty much destroys their original story and timeline. Susan Stine stated that she saw the entire family together "as a whole" in her words, when they dropped off a present at her home that night. She described them as being bubbly about the trip the next day. The Stines were the last stop the R's made that night before going home, and lived literally around the corner from the R's, less than a 2 minute drive away.

BR in a later interview said that JBR was awake when they got home and walked into the house and up the stairs herself. JR originally said that he read the kids a story that night before they went to bed, before changing his story. The Whites have confirmed they did NOT serve pineapple or fruit cups at their Christmas dinner party that night. Add to that a bowl of pineapple was found on the kitchen counter in the home with PR and BR's fingerprints on it. PR's denials about it are pretty nonsensical. And then there's the reaction that BR had when shown a picture of the bowl of pineapple during a later interview. He walked a mile around identifying it. Something is up there.

The coroner estimated she digested the pineapple an hour or two before her death. The neighbor heard a child scream sometime between midnite and 2AM. She ate the pineapple after arriving home and was awake, not asleep or "zonked".

I think it's also valid to note that JBR reportedly did not wet the bed that night. And since it had become a nightly occurrence, that lends credence to her not having been asleep.

Stun gun manufacturers and sellers have said unequivocally that after extensive testing they have never caused anyone to fall unconscious. The demonstration that LS did is kind of ridiculous actually when you think about it. Using a cushion to muffle the sound of the stun gun would also render it useless in stunning someone. How could she have those marks if there were a cushion between her and the gun? A cushion is by no means similar to using a gun against the human body and skin. People who have observed humans being tased agree it's a loud sound. His experiment would have been better served using something that is comparable to the human body, not a cushion. For me, it actually puts into perspective how such a well respected investigator got pulled into this case and ended up so invested in the IDI theory that he lost perspective. He should have known better, and I would have expected someone with his experience would have done testing with a more comparable subject.

 

[seasideForest]

If she was asleep, I would think picking her up and taking her out of her bed probably would have woken her up.

I think that would depend on how deeply she was asleep.

According to the murderer of 6 yo Alesha MacPhail, he carried her out of bed and out of the house before she woke up. iirc he said she woke up and drowsily asked him where he was taking her but by then they were already outside in the fresh air and on their way. That case is on here too, I can't find the exact quote though.

Intruder theory doesn't make a lot of sense for me either.

 

[GRT]

JB was "zonked" apparently and if she had her sleep interrupted in between on the journey home, it might have made her more tired I guess. I write this while thinking of the inconsistencies I've heard. I've got to watch more of their interviews etc.
Maybe it was a taser. Not sure if it was LS who demonstrated using a stun gun held against a cushion and it muffled the sound somewhat. They think it possible that a young child might respond differently (rendered unconscious) but they obviously can't test for this.
The pineapple could be from earlier in the night at the party. The description of the contents of the GI tract varied from being called "mucous material without particulate matter identified" in the stomach, to "apparent fruit..material which may represent fragments of pineapple" - the latter may mean in the small intestine (the wording is a bit poor, imo, or else it's my lack of comprehension). The colour also varied (undigested "yellow" pineapple reaching the SI?).

I think its possible so as not to make it obvious something is amiss, if one of the parents got up and walked past. I was thinking of the thread you posted about the spiral staircase, and whoa, how'd he manage that.
I too do not think a friend making Burke's bed is creepy, given the circumstances.

The marks look eerily similar to those made by a pig taser--but that would likely have caused her to make noise, once she recovered from the shock.

But, I don't think there would be a problem picking up many children that age while they're sleeping and carrying them off. Kids sleep so deeply at times.

 

[Choices]

Susan Stine stated that she saw the entire family together "as a whole" in her words, when they dropped off a present at her home that night. She described them as being bubbly about the trip the next day. The Stines were the last stop the R's made that night before going home, and lived literally around the corner from the R's, less than a 2 minute drive away.

The Whites have confirmed they did NOT serve pineapple or fruit cups at their Christmas dinner party that night. Add to that a bowl of pineapple was found on the kitchen counter in the home with PR and BR's fingerprints on it. PR's denials about it are pretty nonsensical. And then there's the reaction that BR had when shown a picture of the bowl of pineapple during a later interview. He walked a mile around identifying it. Something is up there.

I think it's also valid to note that JBR reportedly did not wet the bed that night. And since it had become a nightly occurrence, that lends credence to her not having been asleep.

Stun gun manufacturers and sellers have said unequivocally that after extensive testing they have never caused anyone to fall unconscious. The demonstration that LS did is kind of ridiculous actually when you think about it. Using a cushion to muffle the sound of the stun gun would also render it useless in stunning someone. How could she have those marks if there were a cushion between her and the gun? A cushion is by no means similar to using a gun against the human body and skin. People who have observed humans being tased agree it's a loud sound. His experiment would have been better served using something that is comparable to the human body, not a cushion. For me, it actually puts into perspective how such a well respected investigator got pulled into this case and ended up so invested in the IDI theory that he lost perspective. He should have known better, and I would have expected someone with his experience would have done testing with a more comparable subject.

Where Stine said the last she saw them as an intact family? She didn’t say they were all at the door from the short clip I saw ~ unnecessary for the whole family to get out. Seeing the others in the car makes more sense. But I understand Burke’s claim contradicted this. Can we be certain the Whites didn’t serve pineapples? What did they serve? Do they remember that I wonder. Have they and other suspects been examined with as much fervour? I saw Burke’s reaction in that interview. The Ramsays may have instructed him only to the extent it could look bad given the autopsy results I’m guessing.
Did JB wet the bed at predictable times or could it be any time? I’m not seeing how this proves anything.
Stun gun manufacturers and sellers have a vested interest. How can they test the effects on little children? On the marks, how hard would Burke have to stab with train tracks to make the marks and why not just use his hands to poke at her?
LS was just demonstrating with a cushion as if it were a body to show the reporter how it reduced the noise, short of having an anaesthetised pig in a lab which of course wasn’t the interview setting ~ the misunderstanding here demonstrates how quickly facts can get unintentionally distorted let alone in a complex murder case that’s been festering for decades which every person and their dog has heard of.
LS may be wrong, he was only human. Nevertheless I notice how innumerable people, who aren’t experts like he was as a homicide investigator with years of experience and solving many cases, without question dismiss someone who obviously had inside knowledge of the case and all the available evidence etc.
The Ramseys do seem to be hiding something. I’m not sure if it’s murder. Why would protecting BR be at the expense of calling an ambulance and potentially saving their daughter if he had hit her? They’re not doctors so don’t know what can be done for her. Who would then go so far as to make a garrotte and then strangle her? (or if it were the other way around: strangle/hit). Why not dispose of the broken paintbrush in the paint tray like with the tape and whatnot other evidence? It suggests the parents either didnt know about the garrotte or what it was made from. I saw a comment suggesting that it’s a sadistic sexual type killing which sounds plausible. Therefore the missing broken end of the paintbrush possibly taken as a souvenir. Harder for me to imagine it was JR being capable of this - who presumably understands the grief of losing his first daughter, or Patsy killing her mini me or BR, a 9 year old kid…hmm.

The marks look eerily similar to those made by a pig taser--but that would likely have caused her to make noise, once she recovered from the shock.

But, I don't think there would be a problem picking up many children that age while they're sleeping and carrying them off. Kids sleep so deeply at times.

Covering her mouth with a pillow would block the noise. Presumably the user would be all round familiar with what happens before using it. A blue electrical mark running between the two stun points was also thought to be on her body.
Yes you would be right that kids can be carried while still asleep. They may stir but not necessarily be fully roused.

MOO

 

[CloudedTruth]

Where Stine said the last she saw them as an intact family? She didn’t say they were all at the door from the short clip I saw ~ unnecessary for the whole family to get out. Seeing the others in the car makes more sense. But I understand Burke’s claim contradicted this. Can we be certain the Whites didn’t serve pineapples? What did they serve? Do they remember that I wonder. Have they and other suspects been examined with as much fervour? I saw Burke’s reaction in that interview. The Ramsays may have instructed him only to the extent it could look bad given the autopsy results I’m guessing.
Did JB wet the bed at predictable times or could it be any time? I’m not seeing how this proves anything.
Stun gun manufacturers and sellers have a vested interest. How can they test the effects on little children? On the marks, how hard would Burke have to stab with train tracks to make the marks and why not just use his hands to poke at her?
LS was just demonstrating with a cushion as if it were a body to show the reporter how it reduced the noise, short of having an anaesthetised pig in a lab which of course wasn’t the interview setting ~ the misunderstanding here demonstrates how quickly facts can get unintentionally distorted let alone in a complex murder case that’s been festering for decades which every person and their dog has heard of.
LS may be wrong, he was only human. Nevertheless I notice how innumerable people, who aren’t experts like he was as a homicide investigator with years of experience and solving many cases, without question dismiss someone who obviously had inside knowledge of the case and all the available evidence etc.
The Ramseys do seem to be hiding something. I’m not sure if it’s murder. Why would protecting BR be at the expense of calling an ambulance and potentially saving their daughter if he had hit her? They’re not doctors so don’t know what can be done for her. Who would then go so far as to make a garrotte and then strangle her? (or if it were the other way around: strangle/hit). Why not dispose of the broken paintbrush in the paint tray like with the tape and whatnot other evidence? It suggests the parents either didnt know about the garrotte or what it was made from. I saw a comment suggesting that it’s a sadistic sexual type killing which sounds plausible. Therefore the missing broken end of the paintbrush possibly taken as a souvenir. Harder for me to imagine it was JR being capable of this - who presumably understands the grief of losing his first daughter, or Patsy killing her mini me or BR, a 9 year old kid…hmm.


Covering her mouth with a pillow would block the noise. Presumably the user would be all round familiar with what happens before using it. A blue electrical mark running between the two stun points was also thought to be on her body.
Yes you would be right that kids can be carried while still asleep. They may stir but not necessarily be fully roused.

MOO

Susan Stine: "They came to our house and I talked to Patsy for awhile maybe 10 or 15 minutes and they all seemed perfectly normal. They were all the same - bubbly about Christmas and about where they were going and we, my husband and I, waved good-bye to them as they were leaving and that was the last time we saw them as an intact family." It's possible that everyone didn't get out of the car, of course. But there is no mention of not seeing a member or members of the family. If some of them were sitting in the car, how would she know "they were all the same - bubbly....."? I think her statement speaks for itself. And since it was Christmas, it would be the polite thing for everyone to be present bringing a gift and offering Christmas greetings.

Well, unless you think the Whites were lying when they said they did not serve anything with pineapple, yes I think we can be certain. In particular because of the coroner's report and where in her digestive system the pineapple was found and in what stage of digestion. From this he was able to determine an approximation as to when she ate it, which was within 2 hours of her death. So if you follow the expert evaluation, if she ingested it at the White's then she was killed before they left the White's to go home. Is this what you are suggesting? And since pineapple was found on the counter at the R home, it's a very safe bet that's where she ate it. And yes, the White's were thoroughly investigated and ruled out.

According to both PR and the housekeeper, JBR's bedwetting had become very routine. It happened with regularity, a nightly event. So much so that PR had decided on the plastic sheet covering to protect the mattress. Washing her soiled sheets had to be done pretty much every morning.

Not sure I am understanding the vested interest comment about the stun gun. They do not cause unconsciousness in people. As a non-lethal alternative commonly used by LE, the vested interest would be ensuring that they are safe to use for a specifically intended purpose. If they weren't, we'd be hearing all about it and LE would be continually being sued. They are subject to a lot of testing.

Yes, LS was demonstrating with a cushion as if it were a body, which is not an appropriate comparison. A cushion is in no way similar to a human body, that was my point. For someone as experienced and well respected as LS was, it was a surprise to see him do that. It just was not a relevant comparison. No facts were intentionally distorted, that is what he used to show how a pillow could mute the sound to explain why no one hear anything, which was irrelevant because no one uses a pillow in between the stun gun and the body. What would be the point? The stun gun needs to touch the body to be effective, stun gunning a cushion or pillow would be pointless and have no effect on the person. If you've ever seen video of someone having a stun gun used on them, it makes a loud and distinct noise. It is not at all the same as using a stun gun on a cushion or pillow. And there was no blue electrical mark. That would have been noted by the coroner during the autopsy. LS had to rely on pictures after the fact. You must be aware that the majority of theories he came up with have been explained and / or debunked. I am aware of his reputation, but you're right.....he was human and therefore not perfect. He got a lot of this one wrong. No shame, just fact.

JBR would have gone unconscious with the blow to the head. It was severe. It's very likely possibility that she was thought to be deceased at that point. And then there's the previous SA that perhaps someone wanted to hide. People sometimes do things in horrific situations that from the outside looking in seem to be unreasonable. In a state of panic and under extreme duress we don't always have the perfect or appropriate response.

 

[Choices]

My

Well, unless you think the Whites were lying when they said they did not serve anything with pineapple, yes I think we can be certain. In particular because of the coroner's report and where in her digestive system the pineapple was found and in what stage of digestion. From this he was able to determine an approximation as to when she ate it, which was within 2 hours of her death. So if you follow the expert evaluation, if she ingested it at the White's then she was killed before they left the White's to go home. Is this what you are suggesting? And since pineapple was found on the counter at the R home, it's a very safe bet that's where she ate it. And yes, the White's were thoroughly investigated and ruled out.

According to both PR and the housekeeper, JBR's bedwetting had become very routine. It happened with regularity, a nightly event. So much so that PR had decided on the plastic sheet covering to protect the mattress. Washing her soiled sheets had to be done pretty much every morning.

Not sure I am understanding the vested interest comment about the stun gun. They do not cause unconsciousness in people. As a non-lethal alternative commonly used by LE, the vested interest would be ensuring that they are safe to use for a specifically intended purpose. If they weren't, we'd be hearing all about it and LE would be continually being sued. They are subject to a lot of testing.

Yes, LS was demonstrating with a cushion as if it were a body, which is not an appropriate comparison. A cushion is in no way similar to a human body, that was my point. For someone as experienced and well respected as LS was, it was a surprise to see him do that. It just was not a relevant comparison. No facts were intentionally distorted, that is what he used to show how a pillow could mute the sound to explain why no one hear anything, which was irrelevant because no one uses a pillow in between the stun gun and the body. What would be the point? The stun gun needs to touch the body to be effective, stun gunning a cushion or pillow would be pointless and have no effect on the person. If you've ever seen video of someone having a stun gun used on them, it makes a loud and distinct noise. It is not at all the same as using a stun gun on a cushion or pillow. And there was no blue electrical mark. That would have been noted by the coroner during the autopsy. LS had to rely on pictures after the fact. You must be aware that the majority of theories he came up with have been explained and / or debunked. I am aware of his reputation, but you're right.....he was human and therefore not perfect. He got a lot of this one wrong. No shame, just fact.

JBR would have gone unconscious with the blow to the head. It was severe. It's very likely possibility that she was thought to be deceased at that point. And then there's the previous SA that perhaps someone wanted to hide. People sometimes do things in horrific situations that from the outside looking in seem to be unreasonable. In a state of panic and under extreme duress we don't always have the perfect or appropriate response.

Was the pineapple stomach contents explained by Meyer, the one who examined her?
I’m aware of the bed wetting. I was asking how predictable were the times (as in by the clock). Was it at 11.00pm every night? Or at various times.
Regarding the stun gun, there’s no tests I am aware of which can know the effects on children until it’s used on them and that would be illegal I think it’s safe to say. Children’s bodies can react differently. Paracetamol is only recommended for older children (12+ years I believe). Also, whether for adults or children, you might find in medicine packaging a phone number to report any side effects you experience - because the fact is, the drug makers themselves do not know everything. Vomiting in children, uncommon in adults ordinarily, occurs with some frequency in children, seemingly from just a cold/flu.
About vested interest, they’re likely only going to say what supports their product but concerning children, it’s a moot point because again, a stun gun would not be expected to be used on a child.
I never said LS’s demonstration was about using a cushion in between the stun gun and body - can you point me to where he said this since your repeating this? - my point was only about the cushion used as a substitute for a body meaning when it’s a real body, the stun gun is held directly against it (no cushion between) to mute the noise because that’s all he could show in the interview. He preferred to have shown it in a proper demonstration. I said misunderstanding and UNintentional distortion.
I thought back to my comment about calling for help on a strangulation which probably sounded a bit odd for an appearance oriented family who want to protect their lifestyle at all costs, but it’d still be an extreme betrayal of a beloved child by who are supposed to be the most trusted persons in her life.
If it’s a JDI or PDI scenario, there’d have to be a really severe pathology behind it imo, like when you mentioned SA - an example in which JR would be the most popular culprit, making him a psychopathic deviant at my best guess. Or if PR, possibly a mental illness where she experienced some sort of intense/significant disturbance. All just my opinion and I don’t know if there’s any evidence to support any of it. LS didn’t think so but I don’t know what he’s basing it on.

MOO

 

[CloudedTruth]

I never said LS’s demonstration was about using a cushion in between the stun gun and body - can you point me to where he said this since your repeating this? - my point was only about the cushion used as a substitute for a body meaning when it’s a real body, the stun gun is held directly against it (no cushion between) to mute the noise because that’s all he could show in the interview. He preferred to have shown it in a proper demonstration. I said misunderstanding and UNintentional distortion.

My entire point was that using a cushion as a substitute for the human body was not an appropriate comparison to make. The sound the stun gun makes while pushed into a cushion does not compare with the sound it makes up against a human's body. I never said that LS said that a cushion was used in this case, but it is what he chose to use to make a comparison that I think is misleading. If you're trying to prove that pressing the stun gun into a human body mutes the sound, you need to use something comparable to the human body. Had he done so, it would've undermined his argument. Again, if you have ever seen video of a stun gun being used on a person, the noise is unmistakable and it isn't muted.

If LS was attempting to say that the killer must have used something to mute the sound as to why the R's say they didn't hear anything, he's off base there too. The stun gun has to have direct contact with the body. And having direct contact with the body does not mean the sound is muted enough so that no one would hear it. That argument simply does not hold water.

In fact, someone posted about having done an experiment where a stun gun was used on a willing participant while his daughter was in another room at the opposite end of their house, to see if she'd be able to hear it. She very clearly heard it and described that it was loud.

Yes, the pineapple content was explained by Meyer and it was sent it to a lab for testing in order to confirm what it was. It was confirmed to be partially digested pineapple and was found in a part of her digestive system that indicated the approximate time that it had been eaten, which was determined to be 1-2 hours prior to her death. Detectives had also taken samples of the pineapple that was found in the bowl in the R's kitchen. Those samples were frozen for comparison testing as to what was found in the stomach. It was compared to the specimen found in the intestinal tract and they found that both the pineapple from the bowl and her stomach contained portions of the outer rind of the pineapple. So both tested as being consistent with fresh pineapple as opposed to canned. The biologists who examined and tested both samples determined there were no distinctive differences between the two samples.The pineapple found in JBR's GI was consistent with the pineapple down to the rind that was found in the bowl in the home.

I have not found any details published as to what time JBR wet the bed each night. How would they know that unless someone stayed up with her all night on multiple nights to record that information? I do know that PR had indicated that sometimes they would wake her up after she was put to bed and before the parents went to bed to make her use the bathroom again in hopes that would help her make it through the night without wetting the bed. That could be an indication that it was happening very late or in the wee (no pun intended) hours of the morning.

 

[887sMtreme]

Susan Stine: "They came to our house and I talked to Patsy for awhile maybe 10 or 15 minutes and they all seemed perfectly normal. They were all the same - bubbly about Christmas and about where they were going and we, my husband and I, waved good-bye to them as they were leaving and that was the last time we saw them as an intact family." It's possible that everyone didn't get out of the car, of course. But there is no mention of not seeing a member or members of the family. If some of them were sitting in the car, how would she know "they were all the same - bubbly....."? I think her statement speaks for itself. And since it was Christmas, it would be the polite thing for everyone to be present bringing a gift and offering Christmas greetings.

Well, unless you think the Whites were lying when they said they did not serve anything with pineapple, yes I think we can be certain. In particular because of the coroner's report and where in her digestive system the pineapple was found and in what stage of digestion. From this he was able to determine an approximation as to when she ate it, which was within 2 hours of her death. So if you follow the expert evaluation, if she ingested it at the White's then she was killed before they left the White's to go home. Is this what you are suggesting? And since pineapple was found on the counter at the R home, it's a very safe bet that's where she ate it. And yes, the White's were thoroughly investigated and ruled out.

According to both PR and the housekeeper, JBR's bedwetting had become very routine. It happened with regularity, a nightly event. So much so that PR had decided on the plastic sheet covering to protect the mattress. Washing her soiled sheets had to be done pretty much every morning.

Not sure I am understanding the vested interest comment about the stun gun. They do not cause unconsciousness in people. As a non-lethal alternative commonly used by LE, the vested interest would be ensuring that they are safe to use for a specifically intended purpose. If they weren't, we'd be hearing all about it and LE would be continually being sued. They are subject to a lot of testing.

Yes, LS was demonstrating with a cushion as if it were a body, which is not an appropriate comparison. A cushion is in no way similar to a human body, that was my point. For someone as experienced and well respected as LS was, it was a surprise to see him do that. It just was not a relevant comparison. No facts were intentionally distorted, that is what he used to show how a pillow could mute the sound to explain why no one hear anything, which was irrelevant because no one uses a pillow in between the stun gun and the body. What would be the point? The stun gun needs to touch the body to be effective, stun gunning a cushion or pillow would be pointless and have no effect on the person. If you've ever seen video of someone having a stun gun used on them, it makes a loud and distinct noise. It is not at all the same as using a stun gun on a cushion or pillow. And there was no blue electrical mark. That would have been noted by the coroner during the autopsy. LS had to rely on pictures after the fact. You must be aware that the majority of theories he came up with have been explained and / or debunked. I am aware of his reputation, but you're right.....he was human and therefore not perfect. He got a lot of this one wrong. No shame, just fact.

JBR would have gone unconscious with the blow to the head. It was severe. It's very likely possibility that she was thought to be deceased at that point. And then there's the previous SA that perhaps someone wanted to hide. People sometimes do things in horrific situations that from the outside looking in seem to be unreasonable. In a state of panic and under extreme duress we don't always have the perfect or appropriate response.

Excellent overview! I want to add one thing, though, if I might. Stun guns and tasers had been available for some 20 years by 1996-7, but were not long in use by most law enforcement operations. Lou Smit, though a respected investigator, had little or no practical experience with them. He was out of his depth and increasingly overcome by a personal obligation to prove John Ramsey (and by extension, the whole Ramsey family) innocent.