Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

[KMouse]

It's going to be a long drawn out boring half of the trial. It's all going to be about how great mtr is and how crazy TLM was. The music from Necro will be brought up AGAIN as well as all the damning things she said during her testimony. I am curious however to hear from witnesses on his side however it won't change my mind because he is just as guilty. I don't even really want to listen to all the bs that Derstine is going to throw out there. Mr is a coward and in the end if justice doesn't prevail karma will. Jmo

I agree. It's going to be weeks of deflection. Look how bad TLM is and how MR doesn't have a criminal record etc. The jury will be subjected to more Necro as you said. The jury will be reminded of how TLM stated she microwaved a dog. I don't think there willl be anything we haven't heard already. Blame and deflection.

 

[KMouse]

I am not sure, but I would like to give him the opportunity.

MR has had the opportunity since April 8, 2009 to choose to speak and tell the truth. He chose not to. I doubt verymuch he will take the stand.

 

[Thinkzerz]

JMO the blood didn't surprise me because I knew she had been murdered so I knew it was bound to be found somewhere whether inside or splashed on the car..I think the blood came from the first rounds of the beating she endured..I also can't imagine MR being a sophisticated catch...I see no qualities in him or even looks that I would go wow..JMO and I also don't think TLM manipulated him into keeping his mouth shut...I think he was running scared that he would be caught and tried to evade the LE and cover up his tracks and I think that TLM would have done the same if she had not been identified as the possible suspect on that video and picked up on another charge..I think they both would have tried to get away with this as long as possible.. I also think the only way TLM confessed and that was after a space of 6 weeks in custody was because LE by that time knew she was involved and broke her down...I don't give her any credit for confessing because she only did that because she knew the jig was up...JMO also because that car was used for other reasons namely sexual encounters etc. it didn't surprise me that sperm would be found but not necessarily from that day and from the trial so far that has not been proven..we can surmised that MR raped TS but there is no evidence other than the word of a self confessed murderer and with her track record I find her word hard to believe. I do believe she is the one who did the deed only because of what I have read about her past so I am not being choosy in what I believe from her tales to fit my beliefs.. I have stated and still believe that this was not a random kidnapping on the part of TLM and she had a purpose in mind when she did it...revenge for whatever reason..I will need a court of law and a jury to prove me wrong and that is what I am waiting for..I don't think MR should be found not guilty for all of the charges because he does fit into this but I want him to be found guilty for all the right reasons...the fact that he was there is enough to insure a jail sentence... JMO

Respectfully....

Same here JMO

 

[KMouse]

I don't know if we could expect a lot of scientific evidence, given the circumstances.

My understanding is that if the Crown submits items for testing, they must reveal the results of the tests, regardless of if it helps or hurts their case against the accused.

I think some of the evidence we heard, the Crown knew would not explain a lot, but had to introduce it regardless.

Along this line............can anyone remember how TLM's letters, journal and statements to her Godmother about microwaving her dog, get into the Crown's case? Did the Crown introduce it, or did the defense bring it in during cross examination?

I have wondered where this information came from, because the revelations certainly didn't support TLM's testimony.

TIA

JMO...............

The Crown does not submit items for scientific testing. The police submit the items to a forensic lab. The results are sent back to the police department. The information is given to the Crown as part of discovery. The police gather the information and the Crown decides what they will do with it.

 

[robynhood]

....one sec ...correct me if i am WRONG...tomorrow there is more legal issues to clarify AGAIN....with the Crown and Defense which means that the jury is not due back in court till WEDNESDAY April 25 and they have the video surveillence evidence and the rest of the chapter they were on Friday to complete ....Am I correct????...so I guess Monday sounds reasonable as Salem just posted ....robynhood

 

[snoofer]

I agree. It's going to be weeks of deflection. Look how bad TLM is and how MR doesn't have a criminal record etc. The jury will be subjected to more Necro as you said. The jury will be reminded of how TLM stated she microwaved a dog. I don't think there willl be anything we haven't heard already. Blame and deflection.

dear lord i hope they don't go on and on about necro and letter writing...again... JMO

 

[robynhood]

..agree snoofer...IMO I think the same ...defense will go on and on about TLM ...her letter writing and chice of music ( which i feel is absolutely a tactic they are using ) to defect from the FACTS that Rafferty drove that child into a secluded area ...ya right to some " safe house" and just had no idea what he was doing....OMG I am personally not looking forward to more BS.....I would like to know who was called on RAFFETY"S Backberry adter they Murdered Tori ....?????....I do hope they can trace that call ???? ....and more evidence comes forward dated April 8 AFTER ... they left Mount forest ????...many unanswered evidence I pray is to come OUT about that horrid night ??? ....IMO ...abuse and rape does not just spontaneously happen it is like a pot on the stove ready to BOIL over at any time!IMO Tori was a victim of something that was PLANNED and TALKED about by these 2 Evil dudes way before this date ! I would love to ask the DEFENSE ... why else was she left without NOTHING on from THE WAIST DOWN....UGH??? }...this case is so twisted it is making me very Ill and IMO I am dreading the next session with >>>The DEfense too ....OMG ...robynhood IMO....all I can say give Tori's Family strength to listen to this ...more pain is all I see coming our way !

 

[snoofer]

I do wonder....

TLM when she found out about the oodles of other women must have been mad. (not sure when she found out)

a. mad and did nothing; just stewed about it

b. mad; there was nothing she could do

c. mad and reacted this way ________; positive release of some sort

d. mad and reacted in negative way ____________insert negative way.

JMO

my answer: possibly by day two after finding out, she was already PO'd at someone else and had bigger fish to fry. JMO

 

[snoofer]

what is the defining moment in this case in your opinion thus far ____________________.

Curious.

JMO

 

[puppyraiser]

What if...... MR had plans to run to Guelph to pick up his drug supply and none of his other many female "friends" were available to go with him that particular day. So he tracked down TLM, goads her into being all talk about snatching someone off the street and the plan is made to grab a child at the end of the school day. Since he was going to Guelph anyhow, it would make perfect sense (if we are to believe TLM's story) to kidnap a child and get out of Woodstock. MR could have had an alibi of being out of town except for those pesky videos of his car in Woodstock.
If we are to believe TLM's story about MR saying the child was too old and the fact that a stop was made to purchase a murder weapon and garbage bags, one would think that the original plan would have been to let the child go, not kill her. I believe because of Tori's age and WHO she was, both MR and TLM knew they couldn't let her go (due to the drug connection to JG and TM)

 

[Ardy]

I wonder if the defense will make a motion to dismiss the charges, based on a lack of evidence, following the Crown's presentation.

It wouldn't be granted, but sometimes lawyers put the motion forward.

I would be surprised if the defense doesn't go through a similar "chapters" type of case, similar to the Crown method.

I would think they would start at the beginning and proceed from there.

The randomness of the abduction would probably be the starting point.

We don't know if there are defense witnesses who came forward with information, that will be presented by the defense.

It seems to me, given the statement from the Godmother and the information revealed about TLM the defense have shown the ability to uncover evidence.

It should be remembered that they have information provided by MR, to direct them towards evidence.

We may also hear from forensic and pathology experts to give their expert opinions on the findings in the reports presented by the Crown.

Perhaps TLM's mother will take the stand.

Perhaps MR's mother will take the stand.

We don't know who has evidence that wiill come forward.

The first few witnesses should give an indication of the defense case.

Given the Crown case isn't overwhelmingly strong, I doubt MR will testify.

Defendants aren't expected to testify and rarely do.

The jury cannot consider not testifying as evidence of guilt.

It should be an interesting week.

JMO..............................

 

[Kamille]

I do wonder....

TLM when she found out about the oodles of other women must have been mad. (not sure when she found out)

a. mad and did nothing; just stewed about it

b. mad; there was nothing she could do

c. mad and reacted this way ________; positive release of some sort

d. mad and reacted in negative way ____________insert negative way.

JMO

my answer: possibly by day two after finding out, she was already PO'd at someone else and had bigger fish to fry. JMO

Actually she wouldn't have found out about anyone other than the few MR mentioned in his interview until long after she had confessed.

MOO

 

[tmhco]

I agree. It's going to be weeks of deflection. Look how bad TLM is and how MR doesn't have a criminal record etc. The jury will be subjected to more Necro as you said. The jury will be reminded of how TLM stated she microwaved a dog. I don't think there willl be anything we haven't heard already. Blame and deflection.

IMO unless they provide an reasonable alternative to the Crown's theory, they will not prevail. TLM admitted she did the violence, that was never in question. They are going to have to explain why she would kidnap an 8 year old child. Without a motive for the kidnapping, the defence theory makes no sense.

What did TLM have to gain by abducting TS? JMO

 

[Ardy]

what is the defining moment in this case in your opinion thus far ____________________.

Curious.

JMO

I would have to say the revelations about TLM through the criminal records, letters, statements etc.

I can't think of any other trial where the key prosecution witness, had such severe credibility issues, and the prosecution was successful.

The jury is there and able to gauge her testimony for "truthfulness", so they have a much better sense of things than we do.

JMO.............

 

[Ardy]

According to her lawyer, TLM considered pleading guilty for months.

Interesting that her lawyer said she didn't understand what motivated TLM to kill............and then TLM plead guilty and said MR murdered VS. No mention from her lawyer about being under the influence of MR..........

Given what we know about TLM's writings at that time.......it looks like she manipulated her lawyer too.

Asked if she had reached any conclusions about what motivated her client to kill, LeRoy said she was at a loss.

"I'm not a psychiatrist. It's something I've spent time thinking about. I don't think I'll ever understand why people do horrific acts."

McClintic's decision to plead guilty came about after discussions that lasted for months, LeRoy said.

"We discussed at length many times the proper way to proceed. We came to the decision together. She took responsibility from the very beginning for her actions."

http://www.canada.com/news/McClintic+lawyer+calls+Stafford+case+difficult/3953182/story.html

JMO..........

 

[Salem]

Bolding by me and I used colors to separate some of your statements so I would make sense in my response

JMO the blood didn't surprise me because I knew she had been murdered so I knew it was bound to be found somewhere whether inside or splashed on the car..I think the blood came from the first rounds of the beating she endured..I also can't imagine MR being a sophisticated catch...I see no qualities in him or even looks that I would go wow..JMO and I also don't think TLM manipulated him into keeping his mouth shut...I think he was running scared that he would be caught and tried to evade the LE and cover up his tracks and I think that TLM would have done the same if she had not been identified as the possible suspect on that video and picked up on another charge..I think they both would have tried to get away with this as long as possible.. I also think the only way TLM confessed and that was after a space of 6 weeks in custody was because LE by that time knew she was involved and broke her down...I don't give her any credit for confessing because she only did that because she knew the jig was up...JMO also because that car was used for other reasons namely sexual encounters etc. it didn't surprise me that sperm would be found but not necessarily from that day and from the trial so far that has not been proven..we can surmised that MR raped TS but there is no evidence other than the word of a self confessed murderer and with her track record I find her word hard to believe. I do believe she is the one who did the deed only because of what I have read about her past so I am not being choosy in what I believe from her tales to fit my beliefs.. I have stated and still believe that this was not a random kidnapping on the part of TLM and she had a purpose in mind when she did it...revenge for whatever reason..I will need a court of law and a jury to prove me wrong and that is what I am waiting for..I don't think MR should be found not guilty for all of the charges because he does fit into this but I want him to be found guilty for all the right reasons...the fact that he was there is enough to insure a jail sentence... JMO

Respectfully....

Green - I think the blood was from the rape - dripped on the floor and into the gym back.

Orange - I would not consider him a sophicated catch either - but it is obvious from the testimony that some did.

Blue - I agree 100% about both of them here.

Red - Agree to disagree here - I don't think it was from previous sexual encounters - I think it was because of what he did to Tori.

Lavender - I'm not sure I believe this, but to my way of thinking, if it is true, MR would have had more reason to target Tori according to his testimony. It seems pretty obvious to me he was selling drugs, along with his escort business, that the $900+ in his car the night he was arrested did not come from CS and he ADMITTED HE KNEW OF TARA, INVOLVED IN THE DRUG SCENE, FROM GOOD TIME CHARLIES. Whereas, both Tara and TLM say TLM did NOT know Tori. I agree that taking Tori was a huge coincidence, but not impossible if she was the only child in front of the school that was not waiting for an adult to walk/take her home. MR's statement about Tara is huge to me. He was trying to point LE in a different direction to take the heat off of him, and in so doing, he used some of what he knew about Tara, mixed in with his lies. To me, he is more suspect in this area than TLM. Again - I tend to believe Tori was chosen at random.

I am waiting to see what the Defense does but they will have a hard time shaking my belief that MR & TLM planned this together, carried it out together, each did what they did, and both tried to escape the law.

Salem

 

[snoofer]

I wonder if the defense will make a motion to dismiss the charges, based on a lack of evidence, following the Crown's presentation.

It wouldn't be granted, but sometimes lawyers put the motion forward.

I would be surprised if the defense doesn't go through a similar "chapters" type of case, similar to the Crown method.
I would think they would start at the beginning and proceed from there.
The randomness of the abduction would probably be the starting point.
We don't know if there are defense witnesses who came forward with information, that will be presented by the defense.
It seems to me, given the statement from the Godmother and the information revealed about TLM the defense have shown the ability to uncover evidence.
It should be remembered that they have information provided by MR, to direct them towards evidence.

We may also hear from forensic and pathology experts to give their expert opinions on the findings in the reports presented by the Crown.
Perhaps TLM's mother will take the stand. hostile witness?

Perhaps MR's mother will take the stand.

We don't know who has evidence that wiill come forward.

The first few witnesses should give an indication of the defense case.
Given the Crown case isn't overwhelmingly strong, I doubt MR will testify.

Defendants aren't expected to testify and rarely do.

The jury cannot consider not testifying as evidence of guilt.

It should be an interesting week.
JMO..............................

green=agree
red=disagree
I think defense will ask to have charges dropped too; and it won't happen.
JMO

 

[JayFriend]

I do wonder....

TLM when she found out about the oodles of other women must have been mad. (not sure when she found out)

a. mad and did nothing; just stewed about it

b. mad; there was nothing she could do

c. mad and reacted this way ________; positive release of some sort

d. mad and reacted in negative way ____________insert negative way.

JMO

my answer: possibly by day two after finding out, she was already PO'd at someone else and had bigger fish to fry. JMO

Some good points! We don't really even know if she did find out, but seeing as she was sentenced to "life" anyway, whether she physically did the deed or not, it wouldn't have made any difference how she changed her confession. It just mystifies me why she would subsequently confess to the actual killing if MTR had wronged her, giving him a possible "out". If she had nothing to lose or to gain, why give him any breaks? Unless, in her perverted concept of morality, what he did with other women was really "cool' and needed to be rewarded.

 

[robynhood]

....IMO ...very curious ...I thought TLM mom was fatally Ill with cancer? back in 2009 ...almost 3 years later is she still well to even take the stand in court?....curious ...agree doubtful the DENFENSE would do this ....anyone know how well terri lynn's mom is ...????

also curious where is Rafferty's mom she certain would have something to say ...he lived with her during all this ...????...Next anyone know if the defense will produce a storyline outline of their chapters so the JURY will understand where they are going each day????....IMO this would be EXTREMELY interesting to see or do we get surpprises each day???....robynhood

 

[crazyladi]

Agreed, but for me TLM had been questioned from the day they picked her up on the breach of probation warrant. It wasn't until they interviewed MR that she spun her tale implicating MR as the sadistic mastermind. It makes me believe that MR description of her set her off ... And if you cross her she will seek revenge. I am not saying MR was not there I just believe that TLM was the mastermind and the killer of VS. I believe MR should be given a life sentence just for putting VS parents through hell BUT I also believe the public needs to be aware that girls like TLM are out there and our system the way it is now is not only failing them but others like VS.

I believe because of the letter about smashing someones head in is why she was set to the physiatrist in the first place. Wasn't missing that appointment way she had the warrant issued? I wonder if her warrant was issued before VS went missing? If so then our system needs to fix ...

BBM- I never knew that she confessed after he was interviewed. To me that makes a lot of sense. I can totally see them playing that tape and her feeling like a total idiot because this guy is talking about her like she is nothing when he made he feel the opposite. I really dont know if the first or second confession is true it could possibly be that he really did kill her and she was going to cover for him then she changed her mind this year. The reasoning no one will ever know. Or she is trying to screw him either way because of what he said.

He is guilty of Kidnapping and I am sure he raped her the pants off makes it clear to me no matter what. As for the actual murder, it really doesnt matter at this time. They both have to live with the fact that they both took part in killing an innocent child and they can both rot in jail for the rest of their lives.