weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[snoofer]

Question: How would TLM take the fall for everything if MR raped VS?

except in the video with investigator she said words to the affect that she decided she didn't want to see him hurt other kids so she seemed willing to let him go away for a while for the rape but would take the rap for the big ticket crimes. JMO

 

[brighidin]

BBM

It is ultimately up to MR if he will take the stand. Derstine can protest and advise against it all he wants, if MR wants to take the stand, Derstine can't stop him from taking the stand.

True. I should have said Derstine would, imo, counsel him not to.

I can't imagine why MR would want to take the stand, and while I doubt he will, I hope he does.


imo

 

[snoofer]

Question: How would TLM take the fall for everything if MR raped VS?

In the interview tape TLM said she didn't want him to get away with that part. MTR was seeing TLM after the murder and they were communicating ie Bonnie and Clyde. MTR and TLM would have realized the rape was the only thing she COULDN'T take the rap for as DNA would show that if it was found and that is why the cover up of the rape IMO by MTR...he was confident she would take rap for ALL THAT SHE COULD so he has to cover that part as best as possible. JMO Also, they knew the body was found and TS had no pants on and they likely thought DNA MIGHT still be present. They would not have known if it degraded enough IMO. I think TLM did exactly what she said she would do; take the rap but obviously THAT part was not something she could say she did as she is not a MALE. Seems MTR scrambled to hide the DNA evidence but not the fact he was present. Think he thought now that finger is pointed at them...if she said she killed Tori and HE hides DNA he would be in clear so to speak AND then claim he didnt know Tori was there for anything other than babysitting original. JMO

 

[snoofer]

<modsnip>

if the murder happened outside of car....and MTR went away as defense suggests and TLM raped her as you suggest...was the rape by TLM supposed to have happened outside?????? MTR defense suggested he drove around ...and came back and Tori was dead. WHY go to so much trouble to clean the car if not rape or murder took place in it? Surely if MTR was innocent he didn't allow TLM to rape Tori in his car. So why the drastic measures on his car. JMO

 

[Macright]

if the murder happened outside of car....and MTR went away as defense suggests and TLM raped her as you suggest...was the rape by TLM supposed to have happened outside?????? MTR defense suggested he drove around ...and came back and Tori was dead. WHY go to so much trouble to clean the car if not rape or murder took place in it? Surely if MTR was innocent he didn't allow TLM to rape Tori in his car. So why the drastic measures on his car. JMO

again we only have the word of a liar, self confessed murderer and a that they cleaned the car afterwards...at a car wash that LE has not been able to find and a variety store that would have CCTV, no doubt... so maybe there were no drastic measures to clean the car... with all the LE involved in this case how hard would it be to find a car wash/variety store...JMO if TS was thrown out of the car and stomped on and dealt the blows from the hammer there would be no need to clean the car afterwards...another tall tale I suspect from the lips of TLM...

 

[dilbert]

if the murder happened outside of car....and MTR went away as defense suggests and TLM raped her as you suggest...was the rape by TLM supposed to have happened outside?????? MTR defense suggested he drove around ...and came back and Tori was dead. WHY go to so much trouble to clean the car if not rape or murder took place in it? Surely if MTR was innocent he didn't allow TLM to rape Tori in his car. So why the drastic measures on his car. JMO

Aside from TLM's testimony, how do we know for sure that when he cleaned his car it was to get rid of evidence? A former g/f testified that he would clean out his car all the time, it was a regular thing with him, but his car looked pretty messy in those evidence photos. Also, if he had vacuumed and cleaned the car several times between the crime and his arrest, how come that little piece of fabric was found?

I'm not the most thorough cleaner in the world, but I would have certainly noticed it and sucked it up in a vacuum, especially if I had just committed a crime like kidnapping, rape and murder.

MOO

 

[snoofer]

1. Why did MTR take TLM to the old folks home.

2. Why did he take a strange child sooooooo far from home.

3. Why did MTR take a strange child to another town hour away and stop to buy drugs.

4. It was over supper time; how many people keep a child over supper time without arrangements made with parents about when the young child will eat and where. Did MTR take her for supper; that is what 8 year olds do, they eat at 5 oclock.

JMO Questions base on MTR defense suggesting he didn't know she was "taken for drug debt" until long into the journey.

 

[dilbert]

1. Why did MTR take TLM to the old folks home.

2. Why did he take a strange child sooooooo far from home.

3. Why did MTR take a strange child to another town hour away and stop to buy drugs.

4. It was over supper time; how many people keep a child over supper time without arrangements made with parents about when the young child will eat and where. Did MTR take her for supper; that is what 8 year olds do, they eat at 5 oclock.

JMO Questions base on MTR defense suggesting he didn't know she was "taken for drug debt" until long into the journey.

Good questions Snoofer, hopefully the defence will be able to answer them when he presents his case.

Regarding #1 on your list, that has never been an issue with me and I will tell you why.

There is no parking in front of Oliver Stephens School at certain parts of the day, it has been a while since I've driven down that street but I do remember seeing the signs. I assume (dangerous, I know) that two of the times where no parking is allowed is before school starts and at the time of dismissal. The street is narrow and just too busy during those times to allow parking in front of the school.

Also, at my son's school, there is a rule that no one is allowed to park in the school parking lot during arrival and dismissal times, they actually put those orange cones across the entrance of the lot so people won't go in. The parking lot is for the buses and staff only. It's possible that the same rule applies at Oliver Stephens.

So, that said, it doesn't seem odd to me that TLM would tell MR to park at the top of the hill and wait.

MOO

 

[Ardy]

Good questions Snoofer, hopefully the defence will be able to answer them when he presents his case.

Regarding #1 on your list, that has never been an issue with me and I will tell you why.

There is no parking in front of Oliver Stephens School at certain parts of the day, it has been a while since I've driven down that street but I do remember seeing the signs. I assume (dangerous, I know) that two of the times where no parking is allowed is before school starts and at the time of dismissal. The street is narrow and just too busy during those times to allow parking in front of the school.

Also, at my son's school, there is a rule that no one is allowed to park in the school parking lot during arrival and dismissal times, they actually put those orange cones across the entrance of the lot so people won't go in. The parking lot is for the buses and staff only. It's possible that the same rule applies at Oliver Stephens.

So, that said, it doesn't seem odd to me that TLM would tell MR to park at the top of the hill and wait.

MOO

True..........parking is banned near schools and everyone parks down side streets and away from the school. , School staff, school buses and handicap vans use up whatever little parking there is.

It isn't unusual to see kids walking up the street to meet up with their parents parked somewhere.

Which always brings a question to mind, about TLM not knowing VS.

How would she know that someone wasn't waiting for VS further down the road........or in the very parking lot that MR parked in at Caressant Care?

TLM and VS even passed at least one adult ( I believe she testified) on the street who was waiting for her own child.

How did TLM know VS wasn't her child?

JMO..............

 

[Sillybilly]

IMO Manslaughter is likely not a consideration.

<snipped for brevity and the sake of all mankind >

IMO, even Second Degree would not be a consideration. TLM has admitted that she killed Tori. Apparently MTR is charged with First Degree by virtue of the sexual assault and kidnapping. IF he is found guilty on either of the latter 2 charges, then surely it will follow that he be found guilty of First Degree. IF he is found NG on the latter 2 charges however, and the jury believes he did not commit the actual murder, then I fail to see how Second Degree or any lesser homicide can apply once the two critical elements that constitute the First Degree charge are eliminated. (unless the judge instructs the jury that they can choose to disregard TLM's claim that she did the actual killing?).

 

[swedie]

Aside from TLM's testimony, how do we know for sure that when he cleaned his car it was to get rid of evidence? A former g/f testified that he would clean out his car all the time, it was a regular thing with him, but his car looked pretty messy in those evidence photos. Also, if he had vacuumed and cleaned the car several times between the crime and his arrest, how come that little piece of fabric was found?

I'm not the most thorough cleaner in the world, but I would have certainly noticed it and sucked it up in a vacuum, especially if I had just committed a crime like kidnapping, rape and murder.

MOO

IMHO the messy car after the fact was just part of a ploy. MR was thinking if he threw enough junk back there and that stuff was tested for DNA, none would be found, he felt it possible then the rest of his car wouldn't be tested for evidence. Other then water bottles and maybe fast food trash type mess, there probably wasn't much else and he made sure of that prior to the abduction. Everything in the back seat area I am sure would have been disposed of. Again JMO. Looking forward to today and more evidence that will help to solidify MR's involvement and guilt in this heartbreaking case.

Praying for Justice Sweet Child!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbUu3eIlwzo&feature=related"]RIP, Victoria Stafford. My gift. - YouTube[/ame]

 

[~n/t~]

Good questions Snoofer, hopefully the defence will be able to answer them when he presents his case.

Regarding #1 on your list, that has never been an issue with me and I will tell you why.

There is no parking in front of Oliver Stephens School at certain parts of the day, it has been a while since I've driven down that street but I do remember seeing the signs. I assume (dangerous, I know) that two of the times where no parking is allowed is before school starts and at the time of dismissal. The street is narrow and just too busy during those times to allow parking in front of the school.

Also, at my son's school, there is a rule that no one is allowed to park in the school parking lot during arrival and dismissal times, they actually put those orange cones across the entrance of the lot so people won't go in. The parking lot is for the buses and staff only. It's possible that the same rule applies at Oliver Stephens.

So, that said, it doesn't seem odd to me that TLM would tell MR to park at the top of the hill and wait.

MOO

He had no reason to park at the school anyway even if they had parking. He doesn't have children attending Oliver Stephens. Why would he need to wait for anyone especially a woman who he claims he hardly knew?

 

[daisy.faithfull]

That is a good point........although to truly remain anonymous he could have put the information into a letter and mailed it to LE from another city.

Everything electronic is traceable, if experts want to find it.

The only explanation for his actions that I can come up with in my mind, are that IF he had no knowledge of what he was involved in and took no part in the crimes...........he somehow convinced himself that he didn't do the actual crime and therefore had done nothing wrong. It would take a convoluted sense of ethics and morality......but maybe that is what he has.

That is not to excuse him...............in any way, shape or form.

If he did absolve himself of the crimes by such means, he will be punished.

In fact, he already has been for 3 years and will have some more time to serve yet. His reputation is completely destroyed and he will most certainly have to move and change his name, regardless of the outcome of this trial.

Any more scorn we can heap on him...........is okay with me.

But, if he didn't intend for any of the crime to happen, he shouldn't be found guilty of these most serious charges.

JMO.........

To say the very, very, very least. :moo: it's not important to find the missing just so we have evidence that will hopefully put those responsible behind bars, we want to find them to bring them home to their families, to give them whatever measure of comfort that will give them.

I can see how MTR could rationalize not being responsible for Tori's death if he wasn't in the immediate area when TLM killed her. I can see him rationalizing not going to police to turn TLM if he was afraid for his life. Its a stretch, but I none the less can see it.

But he was causing an immense amont of pain just by keeping her whereabouts hidden. And it's not like he avoided situations where he was confronted by this pain. He talked about it with others. I'm assuming while doing so he mimicked that pain, that emotional response. And then for good measure he talked about having insider info, being close to TLM, to draw even more attention to his involvement so others would feel especially sorry for him, to increase his chances of getting laid.

He even said he was going out looking for Tori. He could have brought up Tori's disappearance for a sentence or two during conversations, that was probably closer to the norm than what he did do. He didn't have to draw attention to himself like that. But he did, and in doing so got to look at the hurt and pain Tori's disappearance was causing people over and over and over again like he enjoyed doing so.

Thats more than warped morals and ethics. :moo:

 

[matou]

Rafferty jury to hear about links to area where Tori killed

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/04/17/stafford-tori-trial.html

 

[snoofer]

IMHO the messy car after the fact was just part of a ploy. MR was thinking if he threw enough junk back there and that stuff was tested for DNA, none would be found, he felt it possible then the rest of his car wouldn't be tested for evidence. Other then water bottles and maybe fast food trash type mess, there probably wasn't much else and he made sure of that prior to the abduction. Everything in the back seat area I am sure would have been disposed of. Again JMO. Looking forward to today and more evidence that will help to solidify MR's involvement and guilt in this heartbreaking case.

Praying for Justice Sweet Child!

RIP, Victoria Stafford. My gift. - YouTube

Yep i think that after he sussed LE was investigating him he ramped up getting rid of perceived evidence and tossed as much crap with mixed DNA from as many places as he could into that car to make it more difficult for LE. SHOES (lots of them) that have been everywhere; toss em in there too! Deny, deny, deny, deceive, deceive, deceive! MOO

 

[Jezbel]

I agree...but there was so much evidence with RW..in fact he handed it over to LE on a silver platter.... there is no evidence to date shown for MR other than the video and the word of a liar and ....show me the evidence that connects him to this rape and murder (other than being there, but that hasn't been proven as yet) and I will gladly change my opinion...it would have to be the evidence presented though not a lot of "what if's" JMO

When you said it hasn't been proven that he was there do you mean when the actual murder took place, because it has been proven he was there, by his lawyer?

 

[snoofer]

Actus rea. Assuming we take defense explanation. He found out later from TLM that she was taken into his car for drug debt. The moment he realized this actus rea was in play. Kidnapping, what actions did he follow next and what was the result. Tori was brutally murdered and his actions or inaction (actus rea) is still responsible IMO.

 

[snoofer]

To say the very, very, very least. :moo: it's not important to find the missing just so we have evidence that will hopefully put those responsible behind bars, we want to find them to bring them home to their families, to give them whatever measure of comfort that will give them.

I can see how MTR could rationalize not being responsible for Tori's death if he wasn't in the immediate area when TLM killed her. I can see him rationalizing not going to police to turn TLM if he was afraid for his life. Its a stretch, but I none the less can see it.

But he was causing an immense amont of pain just by keeping her whereabouts hidden. And it's not like he avoided situations where he was confronted by this pain. He talked about it with others. I'm assuming while doing so he mimicked that pain, that emotional response. And then for good measure he talked about having insider info, being close to TLM, to draw even more attention to his involvement so others would feel especially sorry for him, to increase his chances of getting laid.

He even said he was going out looking for Tori. He could have brought up Tori's disappearance for a sentence or two during conversations, that was probably closer to the norm than what he did do. He didn't have to draw attention to himself like that. But he did, and in doing so got to look at the hurt and pain Tori's disappearance was causing people over and over and over again like he enjoyed doing so.

Thats more than warped morals and ethics. :moo:

IMO I think he enjoyed the interaction after the crime and the discussion with these women after. Was going to jump the woman in the white coat, stating going on searches etc, knowing insider information. Laughing and sharing intimate moments with them discussing the crime; all while he knew maggots were munching away at that precious child. What a piece of work!!! Devious, sinister, macabre...psycho! MOO Where is his psyche evaluation by the crown; lemme guess he refused. JMO And no don't want to see one by defense. MOO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Originally Posted by maxfactor
Who is CJ?

Christine Jessop I believe.

Yes, Christine Jessop. Thanks Dilbert.

 

[giantalkinghead]

Good questions Snoofer, hopefully the defence will be able to answer them when he presents his case.

Regarding #1 on your list, that has never been an issue with me and I will tell you why.

There is no parking in front of Oliver Stephens School at certain parts of the day, it has been a while since I've driven down that street but I do remember seeing the signs. I assume (dangerous, I know) that two of the times where no parking is allowed is before school starts and at the time of dismissal. The street is narrow and just too busy during those times to allow parking in front of the school.

Also, at my son's school, there is a rule that no one is allowed to park in the school parking lot during arrival and dismissal times, they actually put those orange cones across the entrance of the lot so people won't go in. The parking lot is for the buses and staff only. It's possible that the same rule applies at Oliver Stephens.

So, that said, it doesn't seem odd to me that TLM would tell MR to park at the top of the hill and wait.

MOO

Bolded and coloured by me above...

IMO this is exactly where the defence's story starts to break down. If MTR was in his car, in the parking lot waiting at the top of the hill for TLM and Tori ... for either reason - drug debt or sexual purposes... then he was aware of the kidnapping. If he was aware of the kidnapping ... Murder 1st degree... Period. Throw away the key

MOO