Welcome our Chemist to Websleuths/Syringe in bottle and traces of chloroform #3

[RR0004]

I was thinking that it was odd to "air out" the car inside of the garage. I understand bringing the car home and maybe wanting to hide it until it was disabled, but once disabled - they probably wouldn't have fixed the car to move it back out. Honestly, I don't think their motivation was to protect the neighborhood with a "neighborly" gesture - as that just doesn't appear to be their previous pattern of behavior with the neighbors. I truly think they were too embarrassed to have the stinky car out for everyone's view, however - I think this was at great cost to their need for orderliness and cleanliness. Giving even more creedence to G & C spraying the trunk if there were coffin or blowflies.

Sorry the "neighborly" reference was meant to be a joke. There is nothing that we know (as of now) that indicates the Anthony's were overly "neighborly". I wish there was a "sarcasm dripping" emoticon.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Moreover, for various reasons I do not believe the trunk was cleaned. I know I stand alone in that contention.

You are not alone because I have said the same thing. I've also said that if the trunk was cleaned, it was done poorly (not thorough at all).

These are my reasons:

1) dirt and soil were found on the trunk carpet
2) large and small botanicals were also found
3) no cleaning products or additional chemicals were found on 6 portions of the trunk liner and carpet. The only compound found on these sections of the trunk was chloroform.

I think you might be able to add:

4) Fly larvae and pupae were found in the trunk (possibly laying on the liner)
5) Hairs were found in the trunk (at least 12?)

Cindy did admit she washed clothes and sprayed Febreeze. I have seen speculation based on that.

She also placed dryer sheets (sometimes called air freshener sheets) inside the trunk and cabin of the car.

 

[Harmony 2]

You are not alone because I have said the same thing. I've also said that if the trunk was cleaned, it was done poorly (not thorough at all).




I think you might be able to add:

4) Fly larvae and pupae were found in the trunk (possibly laying on the liner)
5) Hairs were found in the trunk (at least 12?)



She also placed dryer sheets (sometimes called air freshener sheets) inside the trunk and cabin of the car.

Hi Hotdog!! I have noted in reading your posts that we think alot alike. Thank you for adding to my list.

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to confuse or anything. I've not been keeping up with the case as much lately and I haven't read up on it in a long time....my fault for assuming that everyone figured that the trunk was cleaned.

 

[treeseeker]

Hi Hotdog!! I have noted in reading your posts that we think alot alike. Thank you for adding to my list.

Add to the trunk-wasn't-cleaned list:
Evidence of a VFA, butyric acid, and inorganic elements, both associated with human decomp found in the trunk carpet.

 

[Harmony 2]

Add to the trunk-wasn't-cleaned list:
Evidence of a VFA, butyric acid, and inorganic elements, both associated with human decomp found in the trunk carpet.

Excellent additions. Thanks treeseeker!!!

This is the amended list detailing reasons for surmising the trunk carpet was not cleaned:

1) dirt and soil were found on the trunk carpet
2) large and small botanicals were also found
3) no cleaning products or additional chemicals were found on 6 portions of the trunk liner and carpet. The only compound found on these sections of the trunk was chloroform.
4) Fly larvae and pupae were found in the trunk (possibly laying on the liner)
5) Hairs were found in the trunk (at least 12?)
6) Evidence of a VFA, butyric acid
7) inorganic elements, both associated with human decomp found in the trunk carpet.

 

[JWG]

She also placed dryer sheets (sometimes called air freshener sheets) inside the trunk and cabin of the car.

IIRC, in her recent deposition, CA stated she did not know why there were dryer sheets in the car.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Really? Wow.

Those were still in there when OCSO took the car, yes? So Cindy took things out of the car backseat area, but left an "old" dryer sheet sitting on the seat? And then they also left an old one sitting in the trunk?

??

 

[JWG]

Really? Wow.

Those were still in there when OCSO took the car, yes? So Cindy took things out of the car backseat area, but left an "old" dryer sheet sitting on the seat? And then they also left an old one sitting in the trunk?

??

She took clothes and a knife, but left shoes & boots plus the car seat. And yes, she did tell the prosecution she did not know why those would have been put in there, but it was not something she did.

 

[Hot Dogs]

I knew about her leaving the boots and shoes and baby seat in the car. I really thought she must have put the dryer sheets in herself because why on earth leave those there? I would imagine they had to stink like everything else.

I just never got the impression that G&C went to work on that car with the motive of "remove and conceal anything and everything that is potentially incriminating to Casey".

Is there any conclusive evidence that they cleaned the trunk or cabin, or is that conjecture? Were they ever asked that question specifically? (Sorry, I never read G&C's depositions.)

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

She took clothes and a knife, but left shoes & boots plus the car seat. And yes, she did tell the prosecution she did not know why those would have been put in there, but it was not something she did.

As always, JWG, you are correct. And this is one of the few times I tend to believe her. I thought that if she had confessed to fogging the entire car with the equivalent of an odor eater ~ then why would she lie about the fabric softener sheets? Just wouldn't make sense to my way of thinking.

 

[JWG]

I knew about her leaving the boots and shoes and baby seat in the car. I really thought she must have put the dryer sheets in herself because why on earth leave those there? I would imagine they had to stink like everything else.

I just never got the impression that G&C went to work on that car with the motive of "remove and conceal anything and everything that is potentially incriminating to Casey".

Is there any conclusive evidence that they cleaned the trunk or cabin, or is that conjecture? Were they ever asked that question specifically? (Sorry, I never read G&C's depositions.)

I think there is very little evidence supporting CA or GA cleaning the car beyond CA removing items and throwing them in the wash. Cell pings, testimony from CA's co-workers, and George's toll passes all point to CA or GA having very little time with the car at home. And, as you point out, there was enough dirt, debris, and hair left behind to indicate any cleaning job done was poor, at best.

IMO, the dryer sheets were placed in the car by KC to cover the smell. Recall that there was at least one sheet left in the trash bag.

 

[cecybeans]

I knew about her leaving the boots and shoes and baby seat in the car. I really thought she must have put the dryer sheets in herself because why on earth leave those there? I would imagine they had to stink like everything else.

I just never got the impression that G&C went to work on that car with the motive of "remove and conceal anything and everything that is potentially incriminating to Casey".

Is there any conclusive evidence that they cleaned the trunk or cabin, or is that conjecture? Were they ever asked that question specifically? (Sorry, I never read G&C's depositions.)

IMO, both CA and GA (particularly GA) knew they drove home a potential crime scene. If he thought KC had nothing to do with it, he would have refused to pay the towing fee and called LE on the spot. He knew what human decomp smelled like.

He drove it home and put it in the garage, opening the doors and windows of the car, but leaving the garage closed, even though that smell could permeate the house. And an ex-LEO would look at that as hiding potential evidence. (The fact that LE had to find out about the smell circuitously is suspect as well). CA makes her removal and cleaning of items look casual, but really, how much time would a person take wiping off a doll's face and washing pants and putting away steak knives if the most important dilemma right then was where on earth is my daughter, who says she has been in Jacksonville, where is my granddaughter who noone has seen in a month, and why the hell was her car towed locally and now smells like a dead body?

The fact they took the time to clean the car before they ever located KC spells to me they were trying to remove incriminating evidence - that it was more important to them than finding her immediately. The fact that people at the lab remarked about how unnaturally clean the trunk was (despite the fact that KC was not very neat at all and also had a bag of garbage in there) makes me think they cleaned more than they admit.

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

Thanks everyone, for clearing up what I had confused about the trunk being cleaned vs. not being cleaned. I dunno why, but I was thinking that the A's put more effort into removing any evidence that might have been in the trunk than they really did. Obviously, based on the information you all have provided, this isn't the case at all. I think I've been spending too much time in the scanner forum lately, and not enough time reading through the docs!

 

[Hot Dogs]

where on earth is my daughter... where is my granddaughter... why the hell was her car towed locally and now smells like a dead body?

I selectively snipped your paragraph. Look, if I was GA, and the daughter and grandaughter are missing, and the towed car trunk stinks like a dead body, you know what the first thing I think is? I think that somebody killed BOTH of them and stored them in the trunk for a period of time. I start thinking that Casey and Caylee are dead.

 

[RubyB]

She took clothes and a knife, but left shoes & boots plus the car seat. And yes, she did tell the prosecution she did not know why those would have been put in there, but it was not something she did.

Wasn't there at least one dryer sheet found in TL's jeep too? I think it was just a KC thing. A dryer sheet in a closed hot car = air freshener??!

 

[BondJamesBond]

Hi! Thank you so much for your reply!

I interpreted the statements differently. The following statement in particular says to me that it is believed chloroform was actually made:

Quote: "Acetic acid (in an acid environment) and/or acetate ion (in an alkaline environment) are by-products of making chloroform with acetone and chlorine."

Moreover, for various reasons I do not believe the trunk was cleaned. I know I stand alone in that contention. These are my reasons:

1) dirt and soil were found on the trunk carpet
2) large and small botanicals were also found
3) no cleaning products or additional chemicals were found on 6 portions of the trunk liner and carpet. The only compound found on these sections of the trunk was chloroform.

Now we have not seen the results on the wet vac and vacuums. If those items come back showing decomposition then I will change my mind. Otherwise there have been no other results, that I have read, that indicate cleaning was done. Cindy did admit she washed clothes and sprayed Febreeze. I have seen speculation based on that.

Thanks again for your response.

...think we're in violent agreement 'bout trunk cleaning, Harmony. No real, concerted effort put into cleaning the trunk. Removing some items...may or may not have been vacuumed, etc. In spots maybe...maybe not. No huge conspiracy IMHO.

Re: homemade chloroform. I certainly understand the case you're making...and the context of the CSI notes. IMHO, it doesn't hurt the SA that the notes are written this way IYKWIM. I kinda read it like a convenient statement of fact. But will be happy to eat my hat if/when we get more Casey-the-chemist info. No secret that I'm predispositioned to not seeing Casey put forth that kinda effort...even a half-arsed one.

 

[treeseeker]

...think we're in violent agreement 'bout trunk cleaning, Harmony. No real, concerted effort put into cleaning the trunk. Removing some items...may or may not have been vacuumed, etc. In spots maybe...maybe not. No huge conspiracy IMHO.

Re: homemade chloroform. I certainly understand the case you're making...and the context of the CSI notes. IMHO, it doesn't hurt the SA that the notes are written this way IYKWIM. I kinda read it like a convenient statement of fact. But will be happy to eat my hat if/when we get more Casey-the-chemist info. No secret that I'm predispositioned to not seeing Casey put forth that kinda effort...even a half-arsed one.

I understand what you're saying here. But there's been action in the investigation based on this chloroform finding, possibly even the GJ indictment (have to check dates on that). Wouldn't it be risky to assert the chloroform finding if there's no real faith in it ?

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

...think we're in violent agreement 'bout trunk cleaning, Harmony. No real, concerted effort put into cleaning the trunk. Removing some items...may or may not have been vacuumed, etc. In spots maybe...maybe not. No huge conspiracy IMHO.

Re: homemade chloroform. I certainly understand the case you're making...and the context of the CSI notes. IMHO, it doesn't hurt the SA that the notes are written this way IYKWIM. I kinda read it like a convenient statement of fact. But will be happy to eat my hat if/when we get more Casey-the-chemist info. No secret that I'm predispositioned to not seeing Casey put forth that kinda effort...even a half-arsed one.

I have to agree with you BJB...I can't see her having the smarts (she's crafty and street smart....but not book smart) to spend the time researching, collecting materials, and making chloroform...especially since there are other "knock out" drugs available OTC. I'll eat my chemistry books....the whole darn shelf of them....if she EVER proves herself to be a chemist.

 

[cecybeans]

I selectively snipped your paragraph. Look, if I was GA, and the daughter and grandaughter are missing, and the towed car trunk stinks like a dead body, you know what the first thing I think is? I think that somebody killed BOTH of them and stored them in the trunk for a period of time. I start thinking that Casey and Caylee are dead.

GA said that to LE when interviewed, but he knew perfectly well that KC was alive. She may not have been talking with her mom daily, but they had been in contact after the car had been towed. LA chased her around town on July 3. No way was she in there. Caylee was a different story. She had been MIA since before the car was towed.