West of Memphis

[kyleb]

On page 16, you will find the ages broken down this data is done via age, sex and race

I'm not finding anything on page 16 which supports your claim that the data for victim/offender relationship for children over 5 is much the same as the statistics you cited for children 5 and under.

There are numerous publications on child victims and their offenders, but this generally related to offenders in the prison system which I know you'll rebuff due to relevance.

If you cite relevant statistics I won't rebuff them.

But it still backs the theory of it being more likely for a family member to kill a child rather than a stranger.

Actually, page 16 of the document you linked shows a large plurality of the victim/offender relationships are undetermined, and of those which are determined strangers come in above both intimate relationships and other family:

Granted, that's just general statistics rather than statistics for the relevant age group, but it's still relevant statistics from the document you linked, and those statistics contradict your claim.

You can choose to discredit every link I put up but the FACTS and data is there to prove that children victims are far more likely to know their attacker/murderer than not.

I'm not attempting to discredit your link, but rather to understand how you figure it supports your argument.

I am sure you can find it on that site if you look hard enough.

Your style of argumentation reminds me a the women in this video.

 

[reedus23]

Your style of argumentation reminds me a the women in this video.

I don't know that that needs any reply. I will say that if I find the time, I will find it for you. I know I don't like it when someone just blindly refers others here to a website.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Can you provide any evidence to support your claim that the WMPD took less than full advantage of offers of assistance? And no, regardless of how much you might believe I'm laughing, that's far from the truth.

Far from being "helpful," the FBI has successfully fought an attorney's attempt at getting information from them that could be helpful to the case. This horrible turn of events is discussed here. This page provides access to discussions and the actual documents involved in this fiasco. All of the documents are also available on Callahan's, too.

I can recall discussions regarding why the wmpd refused the help of the State Police and the FBI early during the case. IIRC, it was because the Crittenden County Drug Task Force was being investigated, so the wmpd didn't want to involve outside agencies. These discussions are pretty old and immaterial to the case as it stands today, but I'll see if I can find links for you.

ETA: IIRC, it was Mara Leveritt who uncovered the fact that the wmpd refused outside help. Originally, again IIRC, the wmpd had asked the FBI for a profile of the killer. However, before the FBI had responded, the request was withdrawn. I believe some of those documents are included in the links provided above.

 

[EntreNous]

The pdf didn't open right for me. However, I once read that something like 60% of all children killed before the age of twelve were killed by a family member. When friends of the family were included, the numbers jumped up into the 90% range. I lost that link when my computer crashed a few months' back, but I remember it distinctly. I agree that it makes the likelihood of the murderers being Damien, Jason and Jessie remote. Of course, that doesn't prove their innocence, but, IMO, it's another brick in the wall of reasonable doubt.

is this the link you were looking for, CP? very interesting stats after the jump by the US Dept. Of Justice.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/mf.pdf

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Thanks, EN! That's not the article I'd originally seen, but the following is extremely interesting;

In murders of persons under age 12, the victims' parents accounted for 57% of the murderers.

The original statistic I saw stated 61%, but 57% is high enough!

 

[Pisces Cloud]

I thought the makers of this documentary were a bit hypocritical with their treatment of Hobbs. They think the WM3 have been treated badly, but Hobbs could be innocent too.

 

[missy_g]

I thought the makers of this documentary were a bit hypocritical with their treatment of Hobbs. They think the WM3 have been treated badly, but Hobbs could be innocent too.

Well the documentary was produced by Damien Echols and Lorri.

Even Paradise Lost 3 was biased.

I am so interested in seeing/hearing anything that points to the WM3 with actual sources.

Hell, I'm even interested in seeing a timeline of events that happened that night from a non supporter. I've been asking that for years and have yet to see one.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

The ending of that article is very sad IMO.
"Then, in his book, Mr. Echols criticized Mr. Baldwin for not immediately accepting the deal, saying Mr. Baldwin had grown to love prison and was acting as if he was morally superior.

That hurt Mr. Baldwin, who initially did not want to admit to something he says he did not do, preferring to take a chance on an upcoming hearing to examine new evidence that would have probably included DNA samples and charges of juror misconduct.

But as the short timeline on the offer approached, he became convinced that Mr. Echols would not survive much longer.

“I didn’t take the deal for me,” he said. “I took it for Damien.”

The two currently are not speaking. Those around them hope the rift will heal."

I probably wouldn't ever talk to him again.

BBM

I wonder what he meant by that also. Do you think that Baldwin may have had a relationship with another inmate while incarcerated? I am pretty sure that kind of thing happens and he was there for a very long time.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

I thought the makers of this documentary were a bit hypocritical with their treatment of Hobbs. They think the WM3 have been treated badly, but Hobbs could be innocent too.

I think Hobbs is innocent. I thought they made Byers into the boogy man, what happened to that? It's always someone else for some strange reason.

I'm still waiting for the evidence they claim they have to prove their innocent.

 

[Cappuccino]

BBM

I wonder what he meant by that also. Do you think that Baldwin may have had a relationship with another inmate while incarcerated? I am pretty sure that kind of thing happens and he was there for a very long time.

I'm pretty sure that type of thing happens alot less in real life than it does in prison dramas and the sadistic, homoerotic fantasies of people who fit a certain, Jeffrey Dahmer like, profile.

But nothing in the post you quoted even alluded to that, so what made you ask the question? Was it an attempt to offend supporters by insinuating that Jason's gay?

I think most supporters are far too intelligent to care two hoots about whether or not anyone is gay.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I think Hobbs is innocent. I thought they made Byers into the boogy man, what happened to that? It's always someone else for some strange reason.

I'm still waiting for the evidence they claim they have to prove their innocent.

Would you accept evidence that proved someone else is guilty?

 

[missy_g]

BBM

I wonder what he meant by that also. Do you think that Baldwin may have had a relationship with another inmate while incarcerated? I am pretty sure that kind of thing happens and he was there for a very long time.

I don't think Damien ever had any contact with Jason while in prison so I have no idea how he would come to the conclusion that he would love prison.

Didn't Jason take classes etc. while incarcerated? Maybe that pissed Damien off as he wasn't offered the same opportunities on Death Row.

I have not read Damien's book but IMO he can and does come off as cocky. I don't think it's a conceded kind of cocky, I think it's more of a pissed off kind of cocky. I don't know, I can't find the right word to explain it.

 

[Alyssa2013]

I don't think Damien ever had any contact with Jason while in prison so I have no idea how he would come to the conclusion that he would love prison.

Didn't Jason take classes etc. while incarcerated? Maybe that pissed Damien off as he wasn't offered the same opportunities on Death Row.

I have not read Damien's book but IMO he can and does come off as cocky. I don't think it's a conceded kind of cocky, I think it's more of a pissed off kind of cocky. I don't know, I can't find the right word to explain it.

Actually I heard that all three had a difficult time adjusting to prison life but it was Damien who took it the hardest. I think that the speculation that Jason liked prison is ridiculous. I think the only reason that there was a rift between them was because Jason initially did not want to take the Alford's plea. He said before that he would never take a plea that did not exonerate him or officially declare that he was innocent. When he finally did take the plea he said that he took it for Damien because he knew how much he wanted to be free. I don't think there were any particular hard feelings there just a lot of tension because Damien wasn't sure how Jason would react. They kind if grew apart a little in prison but I think that was only natural. Damien is married now and Jason is in a committed relationship so I wouldn't say that they are still fighting but I think Damien took it harder than he should have. After all, Jason took the plea for him.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Would you accept evidence that proved someone else is guilty?

Tell me why supporters not do not think it was Byers? What has changed to make a shift to another family member?

If you are hinting around about the hair, I am pretty sure that has been discussed. What about the blood on the pendant?

 

[UdbCrzy2]

I don't think Damien ever had any contact with Jason while in prison so I have no idea how he would come to the conclusion that he would love prison.

Didn't Jason take classes etc. while incarcerated? Maybe that pissed Damien off as he wasn't offered the same opportunities on Death Row.

I have not read Damien's book but IMO he can and does come off as cocky. I don't think it's a conceded kind of cocky, I think it's more of a pissed off kind of cocky. I don't know, I can't find the right word to explain it.

He is very cocky and reminds me of a sociopath. Did you take a look at the 500 files at Callahans yet? All of that was before this happened and his own family are the ones who said he was into witchcraft and satanic cult.

I've not read the book and don't intend to, but it sounded sort of like jealousy to me.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Actually I heard that all three had a difficult time adjusting to prison life but it was Damien who took it the hardest. I think that the speculation that Jason liked prison is ridiculous. I think the only reason that there was a rift between them was because Jason initially did not want to take the Alford's plea. He said before that he would never take a plea that did not exonerate him or officially declare that he was innocent. When he finally did take the plea he said that he took it for Damien because he knew how much he wanted to be free. I don't think there were any particular hard feelings there just a lot of tension because Damien wasn't sure how Jason would react. They kind if grew apart a little in prison but I think that was only natural. Damien is married now and Jason is in a committed relationship so I wouldn't say that they are still fighting but I think Damien took it harder than he should have. After all, Jason took the plea for him.

I have read Almost Home. Damien didn't say that Jason liked prison, but that he had adapted to it better than he (Damien) had. That is understandable because Damien was on Death Row with little interaction while Jason was in a more "standard" situation, having interaction with other inmates.

While I agree that Damien can be cocky (it's part of why he was convicted, after all), I think that the statements about Jason were taken out of context a bit. I think that the truth of the matter is that Jason was working on Devil's Knot and initially it was going to be a horror film. However, just like the original Paradise Lost documentary, the more the filmmakers learned about the truth of the situation, the more sympathetic toward Damien, Jason and Jessie they became.

Lest I lead anyone astray, I don't believe Devil's Knot focuses on Damien, Jason and Jessie. From what I've read/seen, its focus is on the little boys - the real victims in this situation. The good news is that whatever conflict there was between Damien and Jason appears to have been resolved.

I want to make one slight correction to the quote above. At the Alford plea hearing, Jason didn't say he finally accepted the plea because he knew Damien wanted to be free. IMO, they all wanted to be free! He said that he accepted it because "they're trying to kill Damien." A small difference, but an important one, IMO.

 

[Alyssa2013]

I have read Almost Home. Damien didn't say that Jason liked prison, but that he had adapted to it better than he (Damien) had. That is understandable because Damien was on Death Row with little interaction while Jason was in a more "standard" situation, having interaction with other inmates.

While I agree that Damien can be cocky (it's part of why he was convicted, after all), I think that the statements about Jason were taken out of context a bit. I think that the truth of the matter is that Jason was working on Devil's Knot and initially it was going to be a horror film. However, just like the original Paradise Lost documentary, the more the filmmakers learned about the truth of the situation, the more sympathetic toward Damien, Jason and Jessie they became.

Lest I lead anyone astray, I don't believe Devil's Knot focuses on Damien, Jason and Jessie. From what I've read/seen, its focus is on the little boys - the real victims in this situation. The good news is that whatever conflict there was between Damien and Jason appears to have been resolved.

I want to make one slight correction to the quote above. At the Alford plea hearing, Jason didn't say he finally accepted the plea because he knew Damien wanted to be free. IMO, they all wanted to be free! He said that he accepted it because "they're trying to kill Damien." A small difference, but an important one, IMO.

Thanks for correcting me. And you're right. They all did want to be free. That is important.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Tell me why supporters not do not think it was Byers? What has changed to make a shift to another family member?

Evidence

If you are hinting around about the hair, I am pretty sure that has been discussed. What about the blood on the pendant?

There's more than "the hair" - much more. All of it hasn't been made public, but [ame=http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225263]this thread[/ame] lists what has been made public. As you can see, it's much more than a hair, but that hair alone is more incriminating than any of the so-called "evidence" against Damien, Jason and Jessie, IMO.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Good article about 'West of Memphis' .. and EXACTLY!!!

But the rave reviews miss a dangerous hypocrisy at the heart of the film, which was paid for and produced by Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh, and directed by Amy Berg. In their quest to clear the names of the "West Memphis Three"—Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin, and Jessie Misskelley, Jr. who were teenagers when they were convicted for the 1993 killings—the filmmakers decide that they have found the actual murderer: Terry Hobbs, the stepfather of one of the murdered boys. And in publicly making the case against him, they perpetrate a similar sort of injustice to the one they originally set out to correct: relying on questionable evidence to prosecute in the court of public opinion.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...ess-of-peter-jacksons-west-of-memphis/273243/

Filmakers are experts in the art of telling a story to reach a conclusion which carries the audience along with them, people need to look beyond what opinion and ideas they are being spoon fed and look at the evidence themselves and draw their own INDEPENDENT conclusions. It seems to me that this movie, alongside PL1, 2 & 3 are being taken at face value, and people don't make arguments beyond the ones put forth by the directors.

 

[gheckso]

Filmakers are experts in the art of telling a story to reach a conclusion which carries the audience along with them, people need to look beyond what opinion and ideas they are being spoon fed and look at the evidence themselves and draw their own INDEPENDENT conclusions.

IMO this fits the description of the prosecutors nicely.