What do Burke's interviews tell us?

[UKGuy]

Or, even if the batteries were fresh and didn't need replacing, the batteries were probably wiped to suggest the intruder had brought the flashlight. Can't really belong to the intruder if it's got Ramsey fingerprints on the battery.

If my memory serves didn't they deny owning the flashlight? Or at least develop Ramnesia when asked about it?

Chrishope,
LOL, so why not leave it in the wine-cellar?


Yes the Ramsey's denied ownership, but that onl adds to the staging hypothesis.


.

 

[dodie20]

For anyone who doesn't have Kolar's book, Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?, or if you'd like to use some quotes from it in discussion, I've posted a section he wrote on "Sexual Behavior Problems" including some of the research and evidence we haven't seen before here:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?p=190987&posted=1#post190987

You're welcome to quote Kolar's book, of course; just give him credit.

I just read your link, and wow. Although it seems that the 2 children were suffering from a lot of the symptoms, I'm still not 100% convinced that BR was responsible. A lot was going on with that family, and it's impossible to know Why the children were acting out. Was BR abused, so he passed his anger on to JonBenet, or was all the wetting and fecal issues, just a cry for help? In BR's psychological interview, he admitted that what he liked least about his parents, was them not buying him expensive toys. Could this be his simplified motive? Not getting what he wanted made him angry, and JBR, the 'favored' child, suffered his wrath? He also said what he liked most about his mother, were the hugs and kisses...a Very odd response from a 10 year old boy. If looked at from the point of view, of BR being the perp, it makes a basic kind of sense. He was jealous of JonBenet, so he got her out of the way, so all of the affection would be bestowed on him. Him not drawing her into the family picture, is disturbing beyond words. Is this the family ideal he preferred? I just dont know...considering all that happened afterwards, with the suspicions and accusations, and being under an umbrella of suspicion, and the grand jury, etc...well, things just went too far and got too out of control, to not set the record straight. While BR was still young, most people would have understood, and stayed out of their private business. Plus, so many people suspected BR anyway, admitting it, at least to the cops, wouldn't have been a big surprise. Would sacrificing themselves in the public eye, really be worth it? Instead of protecting BR, they just managed to turn their whole family, including their son, into a circus show. Nobody won! I remember BR being 'cleared', but I never understood how that was possible, unless investigators Did know who committed the crime. Also, the Rs, especially JR, didn't have a problem pointing fingers at others, including their friends. Would they have done this, if BR was guilty? IDK, but it seemed like to me, that the R's wanted as many suspects as possible. PR'S whole, (paraphrased, because I don't have the quote), Hey Buddy, don't dare go there, speech to the cops, seemed so fake, IMO. I really don't know what to think, but thans for posting the link. MOO.

 

[annkitty0630]

I have always believed that Burke was the one responsible for her death. I know so many people just don't think that a 9 year almost 10 year old would have been capable of such a thing but I do. I think John and Patsy both did what they did to cover for Burke. I think Burke was very jealous of his sister because I'm sure she got the majority of her mothers attention. Please don't attack me for saying I believe that Burke did this horrible crime....JMO

Thanks JenniferTx.... I could not agree with your any more! I have believed ever since I heard the pineapple story and that you could hear Burke in the background on the 911 call that he most definitely was involved in this crime. As to the cover up, I have always believed that Patsy & John did not want to air their dirty laundry and let their little beloved son face the wrath of a murder inquiry or interview, let alone a murder conviction! He was quite jealous of little Jon Benet and I am sure had many moments of jealousy and hatred toward Jon Benet due to the over affectionate attention of Patty towards Jon Benet! She was the pride and joy of what a woman wanted for herself to pass on to her sweet little beautiful daughter! Sad as it may seem, the little sweet baby had to pay the price of her mothers dreams and delusions! JMHO, I do not expect any backlash for just posting my own humble opinion! Thanks to all who still keep it alive for Jon Benet!

 

[KoldKase]

I just read your link, and wow. Although it seems that the 2 children were suffering from a lot of the symptoms, I'm still not 100% convinced that BR was responsible. A lot was going on with that family, and it's impossible to know Why the children were acting out. Was BR abused, so he passed his anger on to JonBenet, or was all the wetting and fecal issues, just a cry for help? In BR's psychological interview, he admitted that what he liked least about his parents, was them not buying him expensive toys. Could this be his simplified motive? Not getting what he wanted made him angry, and JBR, the 'favored' child, suffered his wrath? He also said what he liked most about his mother, were the hugs and kisses...a Very odd response from a 10 year old boy. If looked at from the point of view, of BR being the perp, it makes a basic kind of sense. He was jealous of JonBenet, so he got her out of the way, so all of the affection would be bestowed on him. Him not drawing her into the family picture, is disturbing beyond words. Is this the family ideal he preferred? I just dont know...considering all that happened afterwards, with the suspicions and accusations, and being under an umbrella of suspicion, and the grand jury, etc...well, things just went too far and got too out of control, to not set the record straight. While BR was still young, most people would have understood, and stayed out of their private business. Plus, so many people suspected BR anyway, admitting it, at least to the cops, wouldn't have been a big surprise. Would sacrificing themselves in the public eye, really be worth it? Instead of protecting BR, they just managed to turn their whole family, including their son, into a circus show. Nobody won! I remember BR being 'cleared', but I never understood how that was possible, unless investigators Did know who committed the crime. Also, the Rs, especially JR, didn't have a problem pointing fingers at others, including their friends. Would they have done this, if BR was guilty? IDK, but it seemed like to me, that the R's wanted as many suspects as possible. PR'S whole, (paraphrased, because I don't have the quote), Hey Buddy, don't dare go there, speech to the cops, seemed so fake, IMO. I really don't know what to think, but thans for posting the link. MOO.

These are very good questions and observations. I think Kolar's research and thoughts are about as good as it's going to get for us, in terms of understanding what happened in that family that led to the death of JonBenet. If he's wrong, he's wrong; but something awful was going on there and so far, Kolar is the only one who has told us the unvarnished truth about the abuse.

I will say that in that home, in that family, boundaries were a huge issue that was screaming dysfunction loud and clear.

I think Patsy's cancer played a large part in this. I think that's when they lost control of what was going on with the children. They were too small for it to be an issue then, but as Patsy added the pageant factor which began to dominate their lives, I think it ended up being the monster that took over the family.

JMO

 

[KoldKase]

Chrishope,
Why not, ask the stager?

Sometimes in homicides you have stepwise refinement in reverse, particularly in staged crime-scenes.

Otherwise how else do you explain the obvious multiple attempts at asphyxiation, a head injury, followed by a staged garrote asphyxiation?

That is assuming BDI, we have a failed manual strangulation, followed by an ineffective head injury, then lastly by a garrote asphyxiation, with the intention of fooling you completely!


.

Whoa! "...stepwise refinement in reverse...." :what:

That's a bit over my head.

I know you're married to the "multiple attempts" at strangulation, but it's not a done deal, IMO.

That triangular bruise on her neck has misled quite a bit. If you look at the usual photos we have for comparison, you can see that's not an uncommon location for bruising by ligature strangulation.

That aside, I don't think the stager is ever going to tell. :jail:

 

[passionflower]

I always wondered if BR was (jealous) and mad that JBR wet her bed and woke him up, they had pineapple and she got BR angry.
(didn't dad once say she was spoiled),
They fought, he hit her with flashlight, she fell????
Parents heard this.
They came down tired etc.
They tried to wake her up ( coma??)
Knew this would be bad news for them and BR.
Staged everything because they didn't want to lose BR also???

What shocks me is the dirty underwear in the drawer, the feces on candy and just plain dirty the Ramsey's were.
IIRC PR never changed her clothes all day, night and next day???
and they had a house keeper also?
JMOO

 

[Chrishope]

Whoa! "...stepwise refinement in reverse...." :what:

That's a bit over my head.

I know you're married to the "multiple attempts" at strangulation, but it's not a done deal, IMO.

That triangular bruise on her neck has misled quite a bit. If you look at the usual photos we have for comparison, you can see that's not an uncommon location for bruising by ligature strangulation.

That aside, I don't think the stager is ever going to tell. :jail:

LOL, it was a bit over my head as well. And I agree, the multiple attempts at strangulation is not a done deal.

 

[ozazure]

For anyone who doesn't have Kolar's book, Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?, or if you'd like to use some quotes from it in discussion, I've posted a section he wrote on "Sexual Behavior Problems" including some of the research and evidence we haven't seen before here:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?p=190987&posted=1#post190987

You're welcome to quote Kolar's book, of course; just give him credit.

Ack, like others I am taken aback at all the red flags going off in that family. What surprises me a lot is what they left around to be found. I wonder why you don't go pick up soiled clothing and items, actions that will take moments versus the time spent writing the note. Oversight? No understanding of how others might view it? Subconscious tell?

 

[qtc]

Don't take this as an attack, I'm not trying to say you're wrong. Just trying to go a little deeper into this.

I wonder why JR would leave the RN writing to PR ? The purpose is to make authorities believe it was a kidnapping, so the silliness (and it was silly) tends to damage it's effectiveness. It's hard to believe JR didn't at least read it when it was done. Why then wasn't it revised? Lack of time?

I'm not sure JR couldn't have written it - I mean at least dictated it. Part of the plan may have been to make it seem as if the perp were a young immature person who would write something like that?

As for the panties, this too might be deliberate, even though out of character. The boogey-man intruder of course wouldn't bother redressing JB, but if he did, he might not care that the panties were too big.

BBM.

If that was their intent, then they didnt do a very good job. Using words like attache (with accent mark), and "and hence", are not words a young person would use, and probably not a whole lot of old people either.

 

[Chrishope]

BBM.

If that was their intent, then they didnt do a very good job. Using words like attache (with accent mark), and "and hence", are not words a young person would use, and probably not a whole lot of old people either.

Good point. I agree. But the movie lines make me thing of someone young and trying to sound tough.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

If Burke killed JonBenet because he was jealous, wouldn't that make it premeditated?

 

[redheadedgal]

If Burke killed JonBenet because he was jealous, wouldn't that make it premeditated?

imo, no.

i would liken any jealousy or rage (or other emotion) that burke might've felt at that instant --which was suddenly too much for him to handle (even if he'd felt the emotion previously) that he acted upon his sister as we hypothesize here-- to a crime of passion which is not considered premeditated:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/crime+of+passion

 

[MissMar]

imo, no.

i would liken any jealousy or rage (or other emotion) that burke might've felt at that instant --which was suddenly too much for him to handle (even if he'd felt the emotion previously) that he acted upon his sister as we hypothesize here-- to a crime of passion which is not considered premeditated:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/crime+of+passion

There is one thing that could have triggered jealousy and rage in Burke. I noticed something in Dr. Bernhard's interview with him: Throughout the interview he showed little warmth towards his family, but at the same time was very protective of them. According to Burke, the worst thing they did was not buy him, expensive toys. Since he mentioned this, maybe there was some special toy he had wanted for Christmas, but didn't get, and he may have been disapponted or angry about it.

At the same time we have this information: "The day before Christmas, JonBenet was at Megan's house playing JBR: "Santa Claus promised that he would make a secret visit after Christmas" JonBenet insisted. "He said this would be after Christmas. And it's a secret."
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-neighbors-barbara-kostanick.htm

JonBenet told Megan's mother Barbara Kostanick about Santa's secret visit, so it is not unlikely that she also told Burke about it. Burke may already have felt a lot of anger because of all the attention JB got, and she also got a lot of expensive outfits for her pagent shows. If JB revealed to him that that on top of everything else, Santa would also pay her a special visit, which meant extra presents for her, while he did not get the toys he wanted...

Maybe Santa's secret visit was just too much for Burke to handle? Maybe this was the trigger that night, if it really was Burke who killed her?

Just an idea.

 

[anne11]

I was thinking in a similar way about BR and the gifts, maybe he was in the basement searching for whatever expensive item was missing. I believe he was only a couple of weeks away from his birthday.

 

[UKGuy]

Whoa! "...stepwise refinement in reverse...." :what:

That's a bit over my head.

I know you're married to the "multiple attempts" at strangulation, but it's not a done deal, IMO.

That triangular bruise on her neck has misled quite a bit. If you look at the usual photos we have for comparison, you can see that's not an uncommon location for bruising by ligature strangulation.

That aside, I don't think the stager is ever going to tell. :jail:

KoldKase,

Whoa! "...stepwise refinement in reverse...." :what:

LOL, not really, its like dancing, Put your right leg out etc, except here its, Take a step back, consider the outcome, then again Take a step back and so on, and so forth. Simples.


Yes to date I reckon the best explanation for most of JonBenet's injuries is staging, with the R's attempting to fool whomever found JonBenet that she had been subjected to a vicious assault by IDI.

And the big secret they wanted kept hidden was incest, plain and simple, and to achieve this they were willing to fling anyone under the bus!


.

 

[UKGuy]

I was thinking in a similar way about BR and the gifts, maybe he was in the basement searching for whatever expensive item was missing. I believe he was only a couple of weeks away from his birthday.

anne11,
Yes, could be, childrens minds work in ways that make such things huge for them.

The one thing I have largely discounted was a BDI with the location being the basement, now after Kolar's revelations, I reckon its on the table.

Were Burke and JonBenet searching for the gifts they knew existed, but then ended up fighting over?


.

 

[pulpfiction]

If Burke killed JonBenet because he was jealous, wouldn't that make it premeditated?

I STILL cannot fathom how anyone can truly believe this boy killed his sister and that his parents staged it. The crack in her head is just too big. The strangulation is just too horrific. Regardless of jealousy, bed-wetting, obsession with beauty and pageants and on and on....this family did not do this to JB Ramsey. You are forgetting how much simpler it would have been if they'd just dumped her somewhere else if they did it. Someone sick has done this. Seemingly connected somehow to the family but it is just too gruesome for anyone in the family to have done it or staged it. They didn't do it...but someone did.

 

[pulpfiction]

anne11,
Yes, could be, childrens minds work in ways that make such things huge for them.

The one thing I have largely discounted was a BDI with the location being the basement, now after Kolar's revelations, I reckon its on the table.

Were Burke and JonBenet searching for the gifts they knew existed, but then ended up fighting over?


.

How do you go from a fight over a gift to the state she was found in? The Ramseys, including the 10yr od Burke, did not do this. After all this time, testing, theorizing etc. etc. if they did it they'd have been nailed by now. There's a reason why they haven't. They didn't do it. This was a crime so savage it was not done by anyone in the immediate family. The motive is not strong enough by even a long shot. The viciousness of the attack implies a super strong motive and vendetta. The Ramsey's did not have that. The police would have nailed them if they did

 

[UKGuy]

How do you go from a fight over a gift to the state she was found in? The Ramseys, including the 10yr od Burke, did not do this. After all this time, testing, theorizing etc. etc. if they did it they'd have been nailed by now. There's a reason why they haven't. They didn't do it. This was a crime so savage it was not done by anyone in the immediate family. The motive is not strong enough by even a long shot. The viciousness of the attack implies a super strong motive and vendetta. The Ramsey's did not have that. The police would have nailed them if they did

pulpfiction.
You Cannot Be Serious. Who Killed JFK, done in daylight?


.

 

[KoldKase]

I STILL cannot fathom how anyone can truly believe this boy killed his sister and that his parents staged it. The crack in her head is just too big. The strangulation is just too horrific. Regardless of jealousy, bed-wetting, obsession with beauty and pageants and on and on....this family did not do this to JB Ramsey. You are forgetting how much simpler it would have been if they'd just dumped her somewhere else if they did it. Someone sick has done this. Seemingly connected somehow to the family but it is just too gruesome for anyone in the family to have done it or staged it. They didn't do it...but someone did.

I can't imagine how the Germans systematically euthanized 6 million people, either, but they did.

Led by a "Christian."

If you go by what you want to believe a nice looking, Christian family is capable of doing, then I see why you come to your conclusion.

Killers must look like bums or monsters, right?

But they seldom do. The most prolific killers often look very ordinary.

It's not about what we want to believe; it's about what the evidence proves.

Because Jerry Sandusky didn't get away with raping children for god knows how many years because he looked like a child rapist. He got away with it because he didn't...and he had the power, money, and connections to help him.

Did you hear his old friends and his wife testify he never, ever could do such a thing? Even saying they showered with children, too?

Believe what you must, but please understand we're looking at the evidence, not the illusion.