What do JonBenet's clothes say?

[capps]

Theres no doubt that JBR had everything a little girl could wish for,which adds up to a spoilted child,but from what ive read about her she seemed to be a very thoughtful,giving,caring child.Her brother [BR] at the time seemed to be the opposite,very cold and uncaring,worried more about his nintendo than his sister :sick:.Something not right there

True Dingo,we don't know much about Burke.
But to be fair,and if we are to believe the last few minutes of the enhanced 911 call,(I won't be convinced until I can hear it for myself),he did say "Please,what do I do?" and "What did you find?"

Also,just before he went to the White's house,John talked to him in his bedroom ... no one knows what that conversation was,John might have told him there was a lot going on down stairs,JonBenet is lost and there are a lot of police and people down there,your mother is very upset. It's best that you just take your Nintendo and stay with the White's for now where you will be safe. And that is why he just quietly walked out the door with Fleet.

Of course,I'm just guessing ...who knows what can be going through a 9 year old boys mind,under such horrible circumstances.

But what I would like ... is to be able to hear what he has to say now ... 8yrs later!

 

[dingo]

Thanks Capps for a different view on Burkes behaviour that morning,but something still bugs me about him,even later when he was interviewed he seemed a little strange.I have no doubt he was awake early that morning,he wasnt deaf and there was alot ot noise happening [maybe].As far as BR actually telling his account of the events Too much time has passed.BR is no longer a little boy,do we know if he visits JBR,s grave

 

[narlacat]

Dingo

In this thread in a post of Bluecrab's he says they were jeans.

 

[dingo]

Thanks Narlacat,I wonder how long those pants were laying there.

 

[BlueCrab]

Thanks Narlacat,I wonder how long those pants were laying there.

dingo,

Even though Patsy admits she was in and out of JonBenet's bathroom that night to get JonBenet's longjohns and ready her for bed, she doesn't remember if the soiled jeans laying in the middle of the bathroom floor were there or not. She doesn't remember seeing them there. Patsy also doesn't remember if they were the jeans JonBenet had been wearing on Christmas day prior to changing and going to the White's dinner party that evening.

The jeans were inside out and feces soiled. Yet Patsy admits JonBenet's last bath was on the 24th, although she put on fresh panties on the 25th to go to the Whites, which means JonBenet would have changed underwear without cleaning the feces mess from her body. That's unlikely. Therefore, it appears JonBenet could have put on and was wearing the jeans AFTER they all returned from the Whites, and that is when the jeans got soiled with feces.

The cops were suspicious about the soiled jeans being there:

TOM HANEY: "Is it possible that some point during the night she would have gotten up and put those on or thrown them down there or changed in some way? Trying to account for those being there."

PATSY RAMSEY: "I just -- I can't imagine that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's."

It appears Patsy almost had another truth attack, but she caught herself in time and recovered: "No, because I put those -- she was zonked out asleep,"

BlueCrab

 

[Toltec]

I think it's very unfair to call Jon Benet names. I also think it would be a good idea to add an "In My Opinion" to your posts.

Sorry BeeBee...perhaps I should have said "bratty" instead of a brat....other posters are using "bratty".

 

[BeeBee]

Sorry BeeBee...perhaps I should have said "bratty" instead of a brat....other posters are using "bratty".

The difference is that you called her a brat. The others were repeating what they had heard her called. Not actually calling her the name themselves. A thin line but a line nonetheless.

 

[Toltec]

BlueCrab...do we know for certain if the inside-out jeans were in the bathroom or in the bedroom?

My belief is that the pants were worn by JonBenet earlier in the day. She then changed into her Gap outfit...and Patsy was supposedly in the room when she was changing because they had a "tiff" over the red turtleneck.

So...Patsy must have seen the pants because she witnessed JonBenet removing them.

If only the soiled pants were there...then where are the soiled panties? Did JonBenet even change her soiled panties? Did she wear soiled panties to the Whites?

Did Patsy wipe JonBenet's bottom and place clean panties on her before dressing her in the Gap outfit? Where are the soiled panties?

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab...do we know for certain if the inside-out jeans were in the bathroom or in the bedroom?

My belief is that the pants were worn by JonBenet earlier in the day. She then changed into her Gap outfit...and Patsy was supposedly in the room when she was changing because they had a "tiff" over the red turtleneck.

So...Patsy must have seen the pants because she witnessed JonBenet removing them.

If only the soiled pants were there...then where are the soiled panties? Did JonBenet even change her soiled panties? Did she wear soiled panties to the Whites?

Did Patsy wipe JonBenet's bottom and place clean panties on her before dressing her in the Gap outfit? Where are the soiled panties?

Toltec,

The inside-out soiled jeans were in the middle of the bathroom floor.

Your question about the whereabouts of the soiled panties is a good one. The panties would likely have been in worse shape than the jeans, and the odor would have been even worse. The gist of the cops' questions about the soiled jeans appeared to be directed toward the possibility of JonBenet wearing the jeans AFTER she came home from the White's dinner party.

There's a school of thought that human feces played a part in this crime. The two unflushed toilets -- one in JonBenet's bathroom and one in the basement bathroom, seems more than just a coincidence. And the feces in JonBenet's inside-out jeans in the middle of the floor adds to the doubt of it being just a coincidence.

The theory involves the perp using feces smeared on "pristine and privileged" JonBenet to reinforce his sick political message or his extreme personal feelings toward her. The Ramseys, whom I'm certain were up and had found JonBenet much earlier than they claim, would have cleaned up JonBenet prior to calling 911 so as to give her a measure of dignity in death

BlueCrab.

 

[K777angel]

Toltec,

The inside-out soiled jeans were in the middle of the bathroom floor.

Your question about the whereabouts of the soiled panties is a good one. The panties would likely have been in worse shape than the jeans, and the odor would have been even worse. The gist of the cops' questions about the soiled jeans appeared to be directed toward the possibility of JonBenet wearing the jeans AFTER she came home from the White's dinner party.

There's a school of thought that human feces played a part in this crime. The two unflushed toilets -- one in JonBenet's bathroom and one in the basement bathroom, seems more than just a coincidence. And the feces in JonBenet's inside-out jeans in the middle of the floor adds to the doubt of it being just a coincidence.

The theory involves the perp using feces smeared on "pristine and privileged" JonBenet to reinforce his sick political message or his extreme personal feelings toward her. The Ramseys, whom I'm certain were up and had found JonBenet much earlier than they claim, would have cleaned up JonBenet prior to calling 911 so as to give her a measure of dignity in death

BlueCrab.

Bluecrab - I remember reading a rumour on a past forum stating that JonBenet had feces shoved in her mouth. It grossed me out so much I could hardly stand it.
What is made me think about in wondering if they were true was the notation in the autopsy report that she had brown dried mucous on the side of her face and on her shirt sleeve. It could have been mucous tinged with blood that had dried or....??
Also, it made me wonder if part of the "odor of decay" that Det. Arndt noted and smelled was more than just body decompostion....

 

[tipper]

I think the so-called fecal matter in the pants is nothng more than a skid mark which all children have at one point or another.

 

[UKGuy]

Great post. I have always wondered if that red turtleneck were worn under the soiled jumpsuit that Patsy was cleaning around on? That perhaps JB had on the turtleneck and that jumpsuit, but for some reason Patsy was compelled to fuss around with it.

Nehemiah,

Yes its possible. Although I am not certain what a jumpsuit is in the USofA.

JonBenet's clothes are interesting since they may reflect her or someone else's personality.

JonBenet seemed no different form other 6-year old girls, in the house she would chill out and wear clothes that she felt she could relax in. In most photos she seems happy and content e.g xmas day in her pink pijamas, there is another where she is wearing some sweater. These are in contrast to the posed ones, where she wears clothes intended to create some image.

So I try to imagine JonBenet arriving back from the Whites. Where she is only too happy to get changed and relax, but possibly not ready for bed.

So to appease Patsy somewhat she changes into jeans and the red turtleneck, or maybe the jumpsuit and turtleneck. I am struck as to why Patsy will offer direct evidence as in washing the jumpsuit, if she was, and become amnesic in other areas.


So lets be play detective here: Whoever killed or stages JonBenet's death decides to do it in a particular way.

Now a kidnapping from her bed must have either the stager or the killer redress her in her pink pijamas or similar bed attire? This is not difficult to do, she has some wardrobe.

She is found wearing her white gap top, and the red turtleneck upstairs, and her pink pijamas are under her pillow, whereas her barbie gown is discovered beside her dead body.

Now this may suggest the stager had little time to do the staging, or JonBenet never changed out of her white gap top?

I suspect John , Patsy and Burke could all competently redress JonBenet to suggest she had been in bed, if required!

Why did this not happen?

In a matter so serious why even undertake staging if you then redress JonBenet in size-12 underwear that even a 9-year can see is incorrect, never mind a teenager

Remember with regard to the size-12 underwear and the red turtleneck we only have Patsy's word as to the explanation for their location, there may be other interpretation, particularly with the soiled jeans being in the same room, it reminds me of the suitcase in the basement!

Now those asymmetric ponytails, on reflection, seem to be deliberate, little girls know where ponytails should go, and most 9-year olds and above even if they dont know how, I would guess they know the general orientation they should take, and its not one at the top and one below!

So lets rewind, how about someone tells JonBenet to undress and in a fit of exasperation she drops her jeans on the bathroom floor and flings the turtleneck onto the counter?

In the intervening period ... JonBenet is killed!

So why redress her in her white gap top, clean her up, add some size-12 underwear, and a couple of ponytails, possibly draw a heart on her hand unless we were playing dress up of some kind?

So although the whole story cannot be told, we can see if a bedroom abduction were to be staged by a ramsey then it should not be difficult to do. The elements are available to hand!

 

[dingo]

I think the so-called fecal matter in the pants is nothng more than a skid mark which all children have at one point or another.

skid marks usually stay in the underpants and im beginning to beleive that JBR dressed herself for the Whites party ommiting putting underpants on.

 

[BlueCrab]

Although I am not certain what a jumpsuit is in the USofA.

I am struck as to why Patsy will offer direct evidence as in washing the jumpsuit, if she was, and become amnesic in other areas.

UKGuy,

Just a few minor corrections here:

o A jumpsuit in the USA is a onepiece outer garment that includes the shirt and pants all in one.

o Patsy never said she washed JonBenet's jumpsuit. The jumpsuit had been worn in JonBenet's last pageant and was set aside by Patsy and readied to be sent to the drycleaners after she returned from Charlevoix.

PATSY RAMSEY: "I remember -- remember laying the little red jumpsuit of JonBenet's over the ironing board, because it had a few spots on it, so I was thinking when I came back from the lake I was going to take that to the dry cleaners, and decided to lay that under there somewhere."

TOM HANEY: "Was that -- it wasn't something you were going to take to the lake?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "No, no, it was something she had worn for a Christmas performance. It was a little Christmas thing."

TOM HANEY: "When had she worn that?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "She had worn it -- well, she wore it, some of her pageant girls performed together in a group, some Christmas songs and things, down in a mall in Denver, she wore it for that."

BlueCrab

 

[Cranberry]

UKGuy,

Just a few minor corrections here:

o A jumpsuit in the USA is a onepiece outer garment that includes the shirt and pants all in one.

o Patsy never said she washed JonBenet's jumpsuit. The jumpsuit had been worn in JonBenet's last pageant and was set aside by Patsy and readied to be sent to the drycleaners after she returned from Charlevoix.

PATSY RAMSEY: "I remember -- remember laying the little red jumpsuit of JonBenet's over the ironing board, because it had a few spots on it, so I was thinking when I came back from the lake I was going to take that to the dry cleaners, and decided to lay that under there somewhere."

TOM HANEY: "Was that -- it wasn't something you were going to take to the lake?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "No, no, it was something she had worn for a Christmas performance. It was a little Christmas thing."

TOM HANEY: "When had she worn that?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "She had worn it -- well, she wore it, some of her pageant girls performed together in a group, some Christmas songs and things, down in a mall in Denver, she wore it for that."

BlueCrab

also re ironing board: In the 6/98 interview (0776) JR is shown a picture and he sees maybe a vest (or a bow tie?) on the ironing board.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

Just a few minor corrections here:

o A jumpsuit in the USA is a onepiece outer garment that includes the shirt and pants all in one.

o Patsy never said she washed JonBenet's jumpsuit. The jumpsuit had been worn in JonBenet's last pageant and was set aside by Patsy and readied to be sent to the drycleaners after she returned from Charlevoix.

PATSY RAMSEY: "I remember -- remember laying the little red jumpsuit of JonBenet's over the ironing board, because it had a few spots on it, so I was thinking when I came back from the lake I was going to take that to the dry cleaners, and decided to lay that under there somewhere."

TOM HANEY: "Was that -- it wasn't something you were going to take to the lake?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "No, no, it was something she had worn for a Christmas performance. It was a little Christmas thing."

TOM HANEY: "When had she worn that?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "She had worn it -- well, she wore it, some of her pageant girls performed together in a group, some Christmas songs and things, down in a mall in Denver, she wore it for that."

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Thanks for your corrections. I was working from memory , more or less thinking aloud on the clothing topic.

Is this another Patsy inconsistency? In PMPT she tells Rick French she washed a soiled jumpsuit of JonBenet's in the sink. page 59. If not the jumpsuit did she wash anything at all?

From the Steve Thomas Interview April 30, 1997:
[font='Courier New',monospace]John was still in the bathroom and went uh, I stopped kind of briefly there in the laundry room area um, and I remember the ironing board was up I think and I fussed around with this little red jumpsuit of JonBenet’s cause it had, had some spots on it and I was going to remember to do something with that when I got back and uh, so I had, I had the light on in there in the laundry room area and uh, um then I started down the spiral staircase there. [/font][font='Courier New',monospace]I came, I had come back down, I’d come down the back bedroom stairs there. . .
[/font][font='Courier New',monospace]
[/font]Does Patsy have another truth seizure in those last two sentences, she recovers from "come back down" to "back bedroom stairs" ?

In DOI they write about putting clothes into a garbage bag, if you look at the pic , there does seem to be bag at the bottom of the stairs, also note the garland on the stairs.
http://www.acandyrose.com/057spiralstairs.jpg

 

[Linda7NJ]

uk guy

Patsy would not have done JonBenet's hair like that for the White's party.
Pony tails are meant to be on the side of the head, not one on the top and one on the bottom. And why would someone use 2 elastic bands and a cloth tie as well and just on one??
Also in uk guy's search warrant list....it says liquid from toilet. Why did they take liquid from the toilet?

Pony tails as described by the coroner one on top and another below it gives hair the illusion of being longer and thicker I have fine hair and do it all the time!

 

[Toltec]

Tipper...skid marks would be on her panties, not pants. If the pants were soiled, then it must have been a big accident being that the poop leaked through JonBenet's panties and onto the pants.

Let's say that the soiled inside out jeans were the jeans JonBenet wore Christmas Day BEFORE going to the Whites. Her play clothes as Patsy puts it. What we don't know and what was never revealed anywhere was the top that was worn with the soiled jeans. Could it have been the red turtleneck?

Let's say JonBenet was undressing in her bathroom before going to the Whites. She is removing her play clothes. She pulls down her play pants...steps on them...and they lay inside-out. Next, she takes off her play top...(the red turtleneck?)...she bunches it up and throws it on the counter.

MAKE ANY SENSE??? PLAY PANTS (SOILED JEANS) PLAY TOP (BUNCHED RED TURTLENECK)????

 

[Nehemiah]

Toltec, is there any way to tie that in to Patsy initially saying that JB went to bed wearing the red turtleneck? Any way to make that work?

Think she could have worn the white shirt to the White's, and then come home and for some reason put on the red turtleneck?

 

[narlacat]

>>What we don't know and what was never revealed anywhere was the top that was worn with the soiled jeans. Could it have been the red turtleneck?
Let's say JonBenet was undressing in her bathroom before going to the Whites. She is removing her play clothes. She pulls down her play pants...steps on them...and they lay inside-out. Next, she takes off her play top...(the red turtleneck?)...she bunches it up and throws it on the counter.
MAKE ANY SENSE??? PLAY PANTS (SOILED JEANS) PLAY TOP (BUNCHED RED TURTLENECK)????[/QUOTE] <<


I thought the red turtleneck was the top that Patsy and JonBenet had a disagreement over, the one Patsy had wanted her to wear to the White's and instead she wore the white star shirt from the Gap.