What do the profilers say?

[rashomon]

I just read in another forum that BTK Dennis Rader tied some of his victims in a simliar fashion. So maybe the way JB was tied doesn't have anything to do with 'erotic asphyxiation' . Couldn't it be that her killer simply strangled her for staging purposes, knowing for example that she was as good as dead from that blow to the head, and wanted to make it appear as a very bizarre crime (using a garotte), so that it would point away from the Ramseys?

Who was it (LE? The Ramseys?) who brought up the 'erotic asphyxiation' theory first, and how sure were these persons that this was actually the case? Does there exist an official source where this is mentioned?

Another thing to consider is that even if it looks like an erotic asphyxiation scenario, this doesn't mean that EA was actually practised on JB.

 

[trixie]

what I remember the first EA theory actually came from forensic patholigist Dr. Cyril Wecht. He says in his book he's seen this a million times. (I don't buy it because of too many other factors in evidence.)

 

[BlueCrab]

Couldn't it be that her killer simply strangled her for staging purposes, knowing for example that she was as good as dead from that blow to the head, and wanted to make it appear as a very bizarre crime (using a garotte), so that it would point away from the Ramseys?

rashomon,

But it wasn't a garrote; it was an elaborate erotic asphyxiation device wrapped around her neck. Garrotes are simple devices and don't look anything like that.

Also, JonBenet was asphyxiated. Why would a Ramsey stage the scene to look like an EA session killed her? That would point to a family member. I don't think the EA device was staged.

BlueCrab

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

But it wasn't a garrote; it was an elaborate erotic asphyxiation device wrapped around her neck. Garrotes are simple devices and don't look anything like that.

Also, JonBenet was asphyxiated. Why would a Ramsey stage the scene to look like an EA session killed her? That would point to a family member. I don't think the EA device was staged.

BlueCrab

If it wasn't a garotte, why is it always referred to as a 'garotte'? Or is this EA device a garotte-like instrument?

Suppose it was one of the Ramseys who killed JB and wanted to get her out of the house at first and dump her somewhere, but then didn't dare to do it for fear of being seen.
So there apparently was no choice for the killer than to leave JB in the house.
The killer also knew that JB suffered from chronic sexual abuse and wanted to hide that fact. What does the killer do: he stages a very bizarre crime scene and inflicts the wound to JB's vagina to hide these signs of previous abuse because they would have pointed to the family.
The killer then concocts a bogus ransom note (to get an outside intruder element into his story), and, not being familiar at all with how ransom notes look like, ends up with a three-page note, writing things in there like "we respect your business" (lol).

I just read in another post that it was Cyril Wecht who came up with the EA theory. Wecht is a very controversial figure.
His book 'Cause of Death' for example, where he also writes about the Jeffrey MacDonald case, is full of monstrous factual errors. Although he later admitted that the medical info given to him was slim to none, he had the brass to state that the Jeffrey MacDonald had lost a significant amount of blood (utterly false).

 

[UKGuy]

rashomon,

But it wasn't a garrote; it was an elaborate erotic asphyxiation device wrapped around her neck. Garrotes are simple devices and don't look anything like that.

Also, JonBenet was asphyxiated. Why would a Ramsey stage the scene to look like an EA session killed her? That would point to a family member. I don't think the EA device was staged.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Its likely your promotion of the ligature forensic evidence regarding its interpretation as an EA Device probably amounts to a gross exaggeration.

In case you think I am being partisan or personal take a look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote

And you will find not only does it contradict you, in that some garrotes can be exceedingly elaborate e.g. in the article Garrot historically transmutes into a mechanical device to perfom executions, feast your eyes on the picture provided!

Also the image from The Godfather, where Luca Brasi is garroted, is probably what everyone assumes it means to be garroted, although in JonBenet's case she may have been lying face down?

And to avoid any potential confusion or misunderstanding, I quote from the text:

Some incidents of garroting have involved a stick used to tighten the garrote; the Spanish name actually refers to that very 'rod',

That would point to a family member. I don't think the EA device was staged.
BlueCrab

Maybe it is staging, maybe unlike the ransom note, you have been hoodwinked?

Lou Smit also thinks its was an EA Device, so does John Ramsey, Lou Smit thinks a violent sadistic sexually motivated pedophile assaulted and murdered JonBenet, so does John Ramsey!

Lou Smit and John Ramsey did a lot of praying together, they also conferred on the case. So did John Ramsey suggest the idea of the EA Device to Lou Smit or vice versa. Same thinking applies to the stun-gun, what if it turns out those are stun-gun abrasions, and you learn John Ramsey raised that topic with Lou Smit?

The EA Device and Stun-Gun interpretations, are just that, if you choose to consider them valid then you are adopting an Intruder Did It theory. Even if an external agent is magicked up as a say a Ramsey guest, its still Lou Smit's Intruder theory by proxy!

A Ramsey member may have staged the EA Device, for the same reason a ransom note was written, e.g. to point away from the Ramsey household, and also to obscure that another Ramsey may have committed homicide. Because the person staging the EA Device need not be the same person who killed JonBenet!


.

 

[rashomon]

Because the person staging the EA Device need not be the same person who killed JonBenet!

My thoughts exactly!

 

[rashomon]

Whoa, HOTYH! You are apparently not in LE or a Social Worker. I have personally removed children from their homes due to sexual abuse by the stepfathers, or even natural fathers. In each and every case I worked, the mother knew the abuse was going on. In each and every case I worked, the mother chose the husband over her own daughter. In each and every case I worked, I would have left the children in the homes if the stepdads or dads had left the homes. Never happened, and the mothers wanted the husbands to stay.

Nehemiah, due to your profession, you seem to have some experience in that field, which is why I'd be very interested in your opinion.
You wrote that sadly enough, in every sexual abuse case you worked, mothers chose their husbands over their daughter. Quite shocking.
Given that, would you think it possible that if one of these mothers caught her husband molesting their daughter, her rage was directed at the daughter and not at the husband in the first place? ("She seduced him").

I'm not saying that this actually happened in the JB case, therefore just theorizing, but maybe the blow to JB's head was an intentional blow by Patsy, whose rage was directd at JB and not primarily at John (suppose she caught him molesting JB). Have you ever worked cases where the mother blamed it on the daughter?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Nehemiah, due to your profession, you seem to have some experience in that field, which is why I'd be very interested in your opinion.
You wrote that sadly enough, in every sexual abuse case you worked, mothers chose their husbands over their daughter. Quite shocking.
Given that, would you think it possible that if one of these mothers caught her husband molesting their daughter, her rage was directed at the daughter and not at the husband in the first place? ("She seduced him").

I'm not saying that this actually happened in the JB case, therefore just theorizing, but maybe the blow to JB's head was an intentional blow by Patsy, whose rage was directd at JB and not primarily at John (suppose she caught him molesting JB). Have you ever worked cases where the mother blamed it on the daughter?

This theory basically projects a sexually active (and promiscuous) personality upon a six year old. This is impossible, so I can safely tell you this didn't happen.

Its pretty obvious, based on the nature of JBR's victimization, and the ransom note terminology, that her killer is quite likely an adult male sociopath pedophile, of which none of the R's are.

 

[Brefie]

This theory basically projects a sexually active (and promiscuous) personality upon a six year old. This is impossible, so I can safely tell you this didn't happen.

Its pretty obvious, based on the nature of JBR's victimization, and the ransom note terminology, that her killer is quite likely an adult male sociopath pedophile, of which none of the R's are.

This theory does not project ANYTHING on a 6 yr old, rather, it projects a mentally unbalanced personality on any mother who would feel this way.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

This theory does not project ANYTHING on a 6 yr old, rather, it projects a mentally unbalanced personality on any mother who would feel this way.

Hmmm, lets see. Was JBR murdered by a 'mentally unbalanced' mother, or a sociopath adult male? Any time I've ever read about a small child murdered the way JBR was murdered, its always a sociopath adult male. Parents just don't garrote their children.

 

[Brefie]

Not the issue, you made a statement which made absolutely no sense.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

This theory does not project ANYTHING on a 6 yr old, rather, it projects a mentally unbalanced personality on any mother who would feel this way.

Of course it does. Please re-read the post:

... her rage was directed at the daughter and not at the husband in the first place? ("She seduced him").

I'm not saying that this actually happened in the JB case, therefore just theorizing, but maybe the blow to JB's head was an intentional blow by Patsy, whose rage was directd at JB...

"She seduced him"?!? get real!

When you actually read the post, its clear what the proposed theory is. It is virtually impossible, because it depends on a sexually active 6 year old, which completely defies nature.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Not the issue, you made a statement which made absolutely no sense.

Parents don't write ransom notes to themselves either.

 

[Jayelles]

Of course it does. Please re-read the post:


"She seduced him"?!? get real!

When you actually read the post, its clear what the proposed theory is. It is virtually impossible, because it depends on a sexually active 6 year old, which completely defies nature.

I don't think the poster is claiming that the child seduced the father but rather that the mother perceived it this way. I think that is the purpose of the quotation marks.

The poster is asking whether there are cases where the mother blamed the child for the abuse.

 

[Brefie]

Parents don't write ransom notes to themselves either.

Got proof?

 

[Brefie]

Of course it does. Please re-read the post:


"She seduced him"?!? get real!

When you actually read the post, its clear what the proposed theory is. It is virtually impossible, because it depends on a sexually active 6 year old, which completely defies nature.

I did actually read the post. I don't think you grasped what the post was intending.

 

[rashomon]

Of course it does. Please re-read the post:

"She seduced him"?!? get real!

Holdontoyourhat: you completely missed my point. What prompted my post was Nehemiah's post (Jan7) on this thread, who wrote:

Whoa, HOTYH! You are apparently not in LE or a Social Worker. I have personally removed children from their homes due to sexual abuse by the stepfathers, or even natural fathers. In each and every case I worked, the mother knew the abuse was going on. In each and every case I worked, the mother chose the husband over her own daughter. In each and every case I worked, I would have left the children in the homes if the stepdads or dads had left the homes. Never happened, and the mothers wanted the husbands to stay.

So obviously mothers sometimes choose their sexually abusing husbands over their daughters, a shocking fact indeed.
I then asked Nehemiah in my post, given the fact that people can be so thwarted like these mothers, if Nehemiah would think it possible that these mothers, suppose they caught their husbands molesting their daughter would even blame it on the child in the first place, and not on the husband ("she seduced him"). Note the quotation marks please: this is not my opinion, as you wrongly assumed, but what I think could be the opinion of sociopathic mothers as Nehemiah seems to have met through his/her professsion as a case worker.
I then asked Nehemiah if he/she had ever worked a case where the mother blamed it on the child, or tried to exculpate her husband.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Got proof?

You got proof a parent wrote a RN to themselves as staging? There's no precedent for this, because it doesn't happen.

There is, however, a lot of precedent for threatening notes written by 'intellectual' sociopathic killers.

 

[sandraladeda]

You got proof a parent wrote a RN to themselves as staging? There's no precedent for this, because it doesn't happen.

There is, however, a lot of precedent for threatening notes written by 'intellectual' sociopathic killers.

There is plenty of precedent for parents to lie about the circumstances of the crime against their child. The ransom note could very well be a prop or staged or a lie one or more of the Ramseys have created to support a false kidnapping story. Just like Susan Smith created a lie to explain how her children were taken in a carjacking. Just like the mother (forget her name) featured in the book "Small Sacrifices" suffered a self-inflicted gunshot wound to support her lie that a gunman shot her children and her on a dark road at night.

Please tell me you don't consider there to be anything "intellectual" about the ransom note.....perhaps a failed attempt to sound intellectual, I'll grant you that....

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

There is plenty of precedent for parents to lie about the circumstances of the crime against their child. The ransom note could very well be a prop or staged or a lie one or more of the Ramseys have created to support a false kidnapping story. Just like Susan Smith created a lie to explain how her children were taken in a carjacking. Just like the mother (forget her name) featured in the book "Small Sacrifices" suffered a self-inflicted gunshot wound to support her lie that a gunman shot her children and her on a dark road at night.

Please tell me you don't consider there to be anything "intellectual" about the ransom note.....perhaps a failed attempt to sound intellectual, I'll grant you that....

I don't think you understand how I"m using the term "intellectual." I don't mean "intelligent." Ted Kaczynski was an "intellectual," in that he used an ideology to justify killing. So did JBR's killer:

"...but not the country that it serves."

"you're not the only fat cat around, so don't think that killing will be difficult."


Just a reminder, the idea that a parent 'wrote the RN as staging' is nothing more than a creation. Its a fictional creation with no support in evidence.