What do we know about hair decomp ***REVISITED***

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I do not understand. We are not allowed to ask details? I agreed with Jbean in that link and promptly left the thread. This is a different thread. The thread is still open for discussion. I mean, what is the sense in having a thread open if you can't iron out the details? I will admit that I am in the minority, but that doesn't mean that the majority should be allowed to put out information that is questionable and state it as fact. It deserves a good sleuth. So what is your point?
 
I would like to get to the truth here. Some are saying that the q56 hair is an exact match to the q12 hair. I don't see it in the documents. I would like to clarify that it says that it is microcopically similiar. That the dna can not exclude Caylee or Kc. It is also not a suitable known sample to compare to. I believe at this point, it may be a matter of opinion and am not willing to argue over it. Just wanted the record to be set straight. Moo
 
Reminds me of JB's famous statement, "Who are you going to believe your own eyes or me?" An argument over the "death-band" hair may have worked if there was no body found. JMO
 
In my opinion, there are any number of reasons as to how hair from a Live Caylee could have ended up in the trunk. That hair was found in the trunk, that is very likely to have been Caylee’s to me is simply not an issue. The issue to me is the Single Hair, that shows signs of apparent decompostion. The prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this is a hair from a decomposing Caylee. So, if the jury is satisfied by the experts explanations of how they determined this apparent decomposition, this will be a very important piece of evidence for the prosecution. However, if one person on the jury is not satisfied that a single hair with apparent decomposition meets the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, this will hurt the states case. As always my post is moo
 
And by the poll that was in the other thread...don't we all just about get it. I'd only need to physically see one hair to be convinced along with the other information which has so far been released. Now if it were just one hair and no body and no other evidence, then I would be doubtful. jmo
 
In my opinion, there are any number of reasons as to how hair from a Live Caylee could have ended up in the trunk. That hair was found in the trunk, that is very likely to have been Caylee’s to me is simply not an issue. The issue to me is the Single Hair, that shows signs of apparent decompostion. The prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this is a hair from a decomposing Caylee. So, if the jury is satisfied by the experts explanations of how they determined this apparent decomposition, this will be a very important piece of evidence for the prosecution. However, if one person on the jury is not satisfied that a single hair with apparent decomposition meets the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, this will hurt the states case. As always my post is moo

Good morning DA!!

If a single hair was the only evidence in the trunk I might agree with you. However, there is the butyric acid, the adipocere, the decomposition odor, the 31 days, the lies, and the fact that there was a deceased child found close to the home. The child was last seen in the custody of the accused and in her vehicle. Excuses can be made for each and every thing found as evidence but I think a jury will have to participate in a lot of mental gymnastics to reconcile ALL the evidence as coincidence.
 
And by the poll that was in the other thread...don't we all just about get it. I'd only need to physically see one hair to be convinced along with the other information which has so far been released. Now if it were just one hair and no body and no other evidence, then I would be doubtful. jmo

HI!
Great minds think alike, Lambchop!! I was typing mine while you were responding. Sorry for the duplicate!
 
aren't we just "splitting hairs" here? After all, kc will be tried by jury on the "totality of the evidence".
 
HI!
Great minds think alike, Lambchop!! I was typing mine while you were responding. Sorry for the duplicate!

Obviously we can't say it too many times as we continually get this opportunity. It is what it is. If you are looking at it as one thing, one piece out of the whole, of course it could be a yes or no. It is, in fact, the whole enchilada that the jury will be asked to consider.
 
And by the poll that was in the other thread...don't we all just about get it. I'd only need to physically see one hair to be convinced along with the other information which has so far been released. Now if it were just one hair and no body and no other evidence, then I would be doubtful. jmo

Exactly LambChop~

I think it would be difficult to arrive at the truth in a case only focusing on one piece of evidence.
 
In my opinion, there are any number of reasons as to how hair from a Live Caylee could have ended up in the trunk. That hair was found in the trunk, that is very likely to have been Caylee’s to me is simply not an issue. The issue to me is the Single Hair, that shows signs of apparent decompostion. The prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this is a hair from a decomposing Caylee. So, if the jury is satisfied by the experts explanations of how they determined this apparent decomposition, this will be a very important piece of evidence for the prosecution. However, if one person on the jury is not satisfied that a single hair with apparent decomposition meets the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, this will hurt the states case. As always my post is moo

I think the point is that only one hair with "apparent signs of decomp" is needed. It's kinda like someone being shot and killed for example. The person is shot 4 times but only one bullet was recovered from the body and crime scene. Do the other 3 bullets really need to be found? Yeah it wouldn't hurt the case if they were found but they aren't exactly necessary either since you have the one bullet.

Yes I understand bullet and hairs are different but the point still remains you have one hair showing signs of decomp. Would five hairs "showing signs of decomp" really make a difference? To me then the argument would be well they only found 5 hairs and not 10, 100, ect.

That and that one hair coupled with everything else...well kinda seals the deal. Q12 matches the hair from Q59 as supported by links from AZLawyer on this thread. The "signs of decomp" as shown by the FBI reports (linked in Valhall's blog and posts here) were the presence of the dark band on the proximal end.

If a juror walks in with an open mind and is presented with this evidence along with the expert testimony, statements by witnesses about the car smell, cadaver dog hits, the fact that Caylee was found dead. Well like the poll on this very forum showed. It was pretty overwhelming in favor of the fact the Caylee was deceased and in the car.

I'm all for minority opinions and looking at things from a different angle but to me it seems kind of futile to have a circular argument as to why water isn't wet. Not saying that's what DA is doing . DA it's my opinion your just stepping back and looking at this evidence from various angles so that comment wasn't directed at you. However this (circular argument against known evidence of the case) does seem to be a common occurrence with this particular topic. Perhaps the FBI evidence link talking about apparent decomp and the dark ring on the hair should be placed in the myth busters thread if it hasn't already. Not that it would do any good.

Even one of the defense experts seemed to be pretty convinced of this evidence until he was contracted by the defense. (Kobi)

All moo
 
I find the hair to be very important on its own . It is the one piece of known human evidence. The adipocere like substance, air sample, butric acid have not been proven to be from human remains. Each item will be hammered out in court on its own. The so called totallity of evidence cannot change the physical characteristics of the q12.1 hair

I see some post are using the totallity of evidence to convince themselves that the q12.1 hair is Caylees. That helps me to understand some of the majority posts on this q12 hair.

I am looking at the physical characteristics and the dna of the q12.1 hair, hair from skull q59, hair from brush all on its own. I have found in the links from post in this thread that the fbi did talk about the q59 skull hair in some detail. I am interested in exactly what characteristics are they microscopically comparing. The post mortem death banding found on q59 had brushing. (an important characteristic of post mortem death banding).
Brushing was not mentioned when they refered to q12 and q12.1.

I also found that the fbi traveled to ocso to look at the trunk, and found that several things had not been processed. Requesting more vaccumm canisters. It shows me that the fbi is looking high and low for more hairs with apparent decomp to confirm the q12. It shows to me the importance the fbi put on having more hairs to compare. Out of all that they tested, they found none with the darkness at the proximal end, or apparent decomp.

I am happy to see Le and Fbi working together, however I will agree with the one Fbi agent that said they thought the Fbi should process the whole car. This piece meal thing that Ocso does, is just not fair to these experts. Its like taking words out of context, but its evidence and not words. As always. Moo
 
I am looking at the physical characteristics and the dna of the q12.1 hair, hair from skull q59, hair from brush all on its own. I have found in the links from post in this thread that the fbi did talk about the q59 skull hair in some detail. I am interested in exactly what characteristics are they microscopically comparing. The post mortem death banding found on q59 had brushing. (an important characteristic of post mortem death banding).
Brushing was not mentioned when they refered to q12 and q12.1.
Respectfully snipped for brevity and bolded by me.
Brushing is not an important characteristic of death banding. It is but one of the important characteristics of decomposition that may be found in hair from the deceased. A dark band is another.
A hair that came from a dead person may have no banding and no brushing, banding with no brushing, brushing with no banding, or both brushing and banding.
 
Take a deep breath before your next post. I could feel the warmth from in here on my monitor. Thanks! :)
 
In my opinion, there are any number of reasons as to how hair from a Live Caylee could have ended up in the trunk. That hair was found in the trunk, that is very likely to have been Caylee’s to me is simply not an issue. The issue to me is the Single Hair, that shows signs of apparent decompostion. The prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this is a hair from a decomposing Caylee. So, if the jury is satisfied by the experts explanations of how they determined this apparent decomposition, this will be a very important piece of evidence for the prosecution. However, if one person on the jury is not satisfied that a single hair with apparent decomposition meets the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, this will hurt the states case. As always my post is moo
I guess it would hurt the State's case if they were claiming the car killed Caylee, but they're not. One hair, 2 dogs, and the Body Farm will bolster their case IMO, but the truth of the matter is that Casey was the last known person to be seen with Caylee and Caylee ended up very much dead. Now, would it make the crime anymore heinous to the jury if they believed the mother would drive around with her decomposing daughter in the trunk, ABSOLUTELY! So perhaps it (the one hair) would have more of an impact during the penalty phase...but in finding her guilty, I see it as only one piece of the incriminating evidence.
 
I would like to get to the truth here. Some are saying that the q56 hair is an exact match to the q12 hair. I don't see it in the documents. I would like to clarify that it says that it is microcopically similiar. That the dna can not exclude Caylee or Kc. It is also not a suitable known sample to compare to. I believe at this point, it may be a matter of opinion and am not willing to argue over it. Just wanted the record to be set straight. Moo
NTS...I cannot remember anywhere here (but could be wrong) where a poster used the word "exact". We've been down the semantics road one too many times IMO.
 
BTW a dark decomp band is nothing remotely like "dark roots" on dyed hair. No possibility whatsoever that any scientist would be confused between those two things.

Thats why I was trying to figure out the difference between bleached hair and dyed hair. I wonder how they see the dark band on dark hair. I think it has something to do with brush marks. Not sure. Moo
 
Thats why I was trying to figure out the difference between bleached hair and dyed hair. I wonder how they see the dark band on dark hair. I think it has something to do with brush marks. Not sure. Moo
Well, I'm no scientist, but I could surmise that there is a huge difference. And I'd bet my last dollar that a scientist would absolutely know .
 
NTS...I cannot remember anywhere here (but could be wrong) where a poster used the word "exact". We've been down the semantics road one too many times IMO.

Post 215 in this thread, but no big deal. Was just willing to discuss the details of the hair. I really do wish we could set it up like someone once said where we could have a thread where people would be willing to discuss the details of the evidence without argument. I feel there are still many many details to go over about this hair q12 q15 q56. Perhaps there should be seperate minority and majority threads.

I can't see the logic in confirming detailed characteristics of a certain piece of evidence with a mountain of circumstantial evidence. I do not see how not calling the police for 31 days has anything to do with the detailed characteristics of q12.

There are some willing to discuss the details and thats what keeps me here. Moo
 
I think the point is that only one hair with "apparent signs of decomp" is needed. It's kinda like someone being shot and killed for example. The person is shot 4 times but only one bullet was recovered from the body and crime scene. Do the other 3 bullets really need to be found? Yeah it wouldn't hurt the case if they were found but they aren't exactly necessary either since you have the one bullet.

Yes I understand bullet and hairs are different but the point still remains you have one hair showing signs of decomp. Would five hairs "showing signs of decomp" really make a difference? To me then the argument would be well they only found 5 hairs and not 10, 100, ect.

That and that one hair coupled with everything else...well kinda seals the deal. Q12 matches the hair from Q59 as supported by links from AZLawyer on this thread. The "signs of decomp" as shown by the FBI reports (linked in Valhall's blog and posts here) were the presence of the dark band on the proximal end.

If a juror walks in with an open mind and is presented with this evidence along with the expert testimony, statements by witnesses about the car smell, cadaver dog hits, the fact that Caylee was found dead. Well like the poll on this very forum showed. It was pretty overwhelming in favor of the fact the Caylee was deceased and in the car.

I'm all for minority opinions and looking at things from a different angle but to me it seems kind of futile to have a circular argument as to why water isn't wet. Not saying that's what DA is doing . DA it's my opinion your just stepping back and looking at this evidence from various angles so that comment wasn't directed at you. However this (circular argument against known evidence of the case) does seem to be a common occurrence with this particular topic. Perhaps the FBI evidence link talking about apparent decomp and the dark ring on the hair should be placed in the myth busters thread if it hasn't already. Not that it would do any good.

Even one of the defense experts seemed to be pretty convinced of this evidence until he was contracted by the defense. (Kobi)

All moo

Results of examination: (as stated in the docs)
A Caucasian head hair found in specimen Q12 exhibits characteristics of apparent decomposition at the proximal root end. The hair is microscopically similar to the Caucasian head hair recovered from the Q15 hairbrush, however a more meaningful conclusion cannot be reached as this is not a suitable known hair sample. The proximal (root) portion of the hair, which exhibit’s the apparent decomposition has been preserved on a glass microscope slide. The remainder of the hair Q12.1, has been submitted for mitochondrial DNA analysis.

This is what we are all going in circles over. Most are satisfied that the above should be interpreted as proof that Caylee’s remains were at one time in the trunk. Most are willing to accept that characteristics of apparent deomposition at the proximal root end, on a hair that is not a suitable known hair sample is acceptable as proof that Caylee’s remains were in the trunk at one time. Nothing wrong with this opinion.
A few question whether or not a hair that, is not a suitable known hair sample, that displays apparent decomposition at the proximal root end, meets the burden of proof required in a court of law. They would like a better understanding of how something that is not suitable can be used to determine anything of value. They would also like a better understanding of what apparent decomposition means in layman terms, and what is meant by a more meaningful conclusion cannot be reached. Nothing wrong with this opinion.

This all seems pretty simple to me, at trial if the SA and the experts successfully convince the jury that the results of the examination are correct, and have removed all reasonable doubt from the minds of the jurors regarding this single hair, then this single hair will be a great help to the states overall case. If the defense successfully raises reasonable doubt to this one hair, it will do damage to the states overall case.

I think we can all agree to disagree, on the results of examination above, most believe the single hair is strong evidence for the prosecution and will favor the prosecutions position, a few have some questions whether or not that will be the case. We have examined this piece repeatedly, and both sides are standing firm in their opinions.

For me personally, this one single hair is only one area where I have questions. I have many questions about a small percentage of the evidence that I am not sure of as being entirely correct. I question the death band, the Adipocere, the smell of death, officer Cain’s termination, RK’s inconsistent statements in police interviews, when Caylee’s remains were placed in the woods, how Caylee actually died, 2.6 days in the trunk, ugly coping, is there a real ZFG, did KC make her own chloroform and use it on Caylee, where Caylee died, why were only traces of decomp found in the trunk instead of substantial amounts of decomp, how reliable is the analysis of a single hair showing characteristics of apparent decomp, when Caylee died, were CA’s arguments with KC really terrible enough to cause KC to murder Caylee in a fit of rage, or to premeditate the cold blooded murder of Caylee, why Caylee died, how accurate are cadaver dog hits, did LE investigate everyone thoroughly that needed to be investigated thoroughly, why were no matching fibers found between the remains site and the trunk, was the decomp in the trunk from a decomposition event that was not of human origin, how could only one diptera leg be found, was the white trash bag evidence compromised while sitting in a dumpster for 30 hours, was Dr. Lee mistaken about what he said was food in the white trash bag on national tv, was the defense being truthful when they stated somebody other than KC is responsible, when they said those were not coffin flies, why was DC’s depo sealed, why did LE wait 15 months to attempt to get fingerprints from the trash in the white garbage bag, and so on and so on and so on. These are just some of the questions I still have on my mind, and I have not been able to satisfactorily answer from the docs we know of.. Future doc dumps may answer some of my questions, and the trial itself will answer all of these questions, one way or the other. I have a whole lot of questions I would like to have satisfactorily answered, before I can jump onto the DP bandwagon. I have found within the threads on this site many satisfactory answers to some of my questions, I have also found more questions as well. That is why I admire this site and its members.

These questions are the result of much research, and reading in many threads on this site. In an unrelated case, Dr. Haskell and another highly regarded expert were both given the same details about a case. Based on the same details, these two experts came up with completely different results. In court, Dr. Haskell won the argument. Does this mean the other highly regarded expert did not read all the details, or was illogical. NO, it just means he interpreted the information differently than Dr. Haskell and Dr. H was more convincing in a court of law. My point is that just because someone may have an opinion that differs from the majority, does not mean that person has not researched much of, if not, all the same information in the documents as everyone else, they simply have come up with a different opinion, much like the highly regarded expert whose opinion differed greatly from Dr. Haskell’s. As always, my post in its entirety is my opinion only.
 

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