K777angel
Member
Toth said:
New Flash for ya Toth! None of "us posters" were IN THE HOUSE the night of the murder!! As Patsy Ramsey, user of acronyms was. Owner of house where note was found - written on HER pad of paper, with HER pens.
What was that about Patsy and acronyms?
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New Flash for ya Toth! None of "us posters" were IN THE HOUSE the night of the murder!! As Patsy Ramsey, user of acronyms was. Owner of house where note was found - written on HER pad of paper, with HER pens.
BlueCrab
New Member
K777angel said:
But Burke Ramsey was in the house that night, and we're unaware how often HE uses acronyms when writing fake ransom notes that are childishly worded. After all, Burke was taught how to write by Patsy, so wouldn't his lettering and writing style be similar to hers? Of course it would.
The CBI won't release the analysis of Burke's handwriting examination. If they did, I think it might shock a lot of people.
JMO
KaaBooo
New Member
Actually I doubt Burke was taught how to read and write by Patsy. By the time that he was old enough to learn Patsy had already started her JonBenet obsession and spent less and less time on Burke. Lots of people have testified to that fact, that after JonBenet she wasn't that involved with him anymore. Then there's her cancer which was on it's worst at just that time, too. If she spent that much time in hospitals, no way she had time or energy to teach Burke his ABCs.
Even if she did, there is no way she'd teach him anything than to form letters. He wasn't old enough to have learned (or obtained on his own through observing) a certain writing style, use of words or acronyms or words of foreign origin.
eliza
New Member
KaaBooo said:
I agree Kaabooo, When all my children were learning to print the teacher would send home a guide that we as parents would follow to help the kids practice their printing at home. The school wanted the children to form their letters a certain way, not the way the parents had been taught. My youngest now in second grade has learned a style that has him printing in a form that has each letter with these little tails to ease the transition between printing and cursive. This is the new way to print that is being taught in the school in our area now. In fact I would say all 3 of my kids handwriting is different even though I helped each of them practice when they were younger. I would have to disagree that Burkes printing would resemble Patsys at all.
linnafay
Inactive
LovelyPigeon said:
The military uses acronyms for everything. eg...MFRC, PMQ, IRPP,
Johns parent company was Lockheed Martin? They are a huge military contractor
popcorn
Inactive
There's a hugh difference between just using acronyms and linguistically
applying them to your own words making personalized versions.
What Patsy does is rare, coincidently just like the author of the RN.
applying them to your own words making personalized versions.
What Patsy does is rare, coincidently just like the author of the RN.
tipper
Former Member
Thomas is the one who claims Patsy has a penchant for using acronyms but as I said before he only offeres up one example. If I had to guess I'd bet she and Barbara Fernie were having a giggle one day about people who put initials after their names and it came from that or some similar situation.
Thomas says her habit of double indenting her closing and indenting her paragraphs are the same as the indents in the ransom note and therefore it adds to the evidence she wrote the note. I say if that is the most common way to format handwritten letters then it means nothing. It's like saying the letter is written in English, Patsy speaks English therefore that adds to the weight that Patsy wrote the letter.
In addition, in the same interview where he mentions the acronyms Thomas lies (as shown in his deposition answer) about Patsy being the "only one" who couldn't be eliminated.
http://www.acandyrose.com/04102000gma.htm
Vargas: . Thomas says they checked handwriting samples from 73 potential suspects, but only one person could not be ruled out as the author.
Thomas: And that one person happens to be Patsy Ramsey.
From Thomas deposition:
Q. And how many of the 73 were eliminated as the author of the note based on the handwriting
examples or exemplars?
A. I don't know.
Q. Not many, true?
A. I know that the majority fell into the no evidence to indicate category.
Q. But they couldn't go to elimination, could they?
A. Again, I don't know.
Q. Didn't you talk with the handwriting expert, sir?
A. Are we talking about the CBI expert?
Q. Any of them. There were four with respect to Patsy Ramsey, weren't there?
A. Yes.
Q. How many other of the 73 had four different examiners look at their handwriting?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know of any? Can you name one?
A. I'm trying to recall with those three additional examiners if other suspects' historical writings or
exemplars were provided to them. As I sit here today, I don't know. But if any, the number would be
few.
Q. Do you know whether the Boulder Police Department obtained historical writings with respect to
Chris Wolf's handwriting?
A. I don't know. I didn't get very far with Mr. Wolf, Mr. White -- or Mr. Wood, I'm sorry.
Q. That's okay. Fleet White's handwriting was tested?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Was he eliminated?
A. He fell into a category that he was no longer, if my understanding is correct, and this wasn't my
assignment, but by way of detective briefings, Mr. White was not in the running, if you will, by way of a
handwriting exemplar.
Q. My question is not in the running. My question is was he eliminated as the author of the note
based on a handwriting analysis conducted by the Boulder Police Department or the CBI?
A. I don't know what the CBI expert concluded as far as a categorical elimination of Mr. White.
Q. John Ramsey was categorically eliminated, wasn't he?
A. Again I would liken it to Mr. White. I simply learned that Mr. Ramsey was not a candidate
based on his handwriting.
Q. You don't know whether John Ramsey was eliminated by the examiner at CBI as an author of
the note based on that and his -- the analysis of his exemplars, you don't know that as we sit here
today?
A. He may very well have fallen into that majority of no evidence to indicate but if you're telling me
that he fell into the elimination category, I won't dispute that because we never had any concerns after
some of these results that he was the author of the note.
Q. Well, the question is not what I'm suggesting to you. Do you know? Do you have any idea
whether his report from CBI came back and said John Ramsey has been eliminated based on the CBI
analysis as the author of the ransom note? Do you know one way or the other, sir?
A. As to what category he fell into?
Q. Whether he was eliminated by the CBI analysis is my question, please, sir?
A. As to the category he fell into, including a category of elimination, I don't have personal
knowledge.
Q. Do you have any knowledge, secondary or otherwise?
A. As I told you a minute ago, Mr. Wood, it was my understanding from our briefings that he was
not a candidate as the author of the note. I don't know what else I can -- how many ways I can
answer that question for you.
Q. I just want to know if you know the results of the CBI analysis of John Ramsey's handwriting?
MR. DIAMOND: Any more clearly than he just told you?
MR. WOOD: That's my question. Do you want to answer for him? Because if so --
MR. DIAMOND: I think you --
MR. WOOD: -- I would love to swear you in and examine you under oath, but I think it would be a
waste of our time.
MR. DIAMOND: I think you're not listening to the answers. We're not --
MR. WOOD: Why don't you worry about your side of the table and let me worry about mine. If I'm
not understanding him, that's my fault. I mean, it's my walk away without the information, right? I
think I'm understanding. I'm just not sure I'm getting a straight answer. It seems to me that this
gentleman should know, as he claims to be one of the lead detectives on the case, whether John
Ramsey's CBI handwriting analysis came back elimination.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) And you don't know, do you?
A. As I have told you, Mr. Wood, I stand on my answer, yeah, I know that he was not -- that he was eliminated by way of handwriting. But if you're asking me if the CBI examiner reached a conclusion of elimination, I'm sitting here again telling you I don't have personal knowledge of that.
Q. Let me go that route because I think I understand you. Do you know how many of the 73 individuals were eliminated by way of handwriting?
A. By way of falling into the category of elimination.
Q. That were eliminated by way of handwriting, your words.
MR. DIAMOND: I think he means by the Boulder Police Department.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I mean that were eliminated by way of handwriting, certainly by the Boulder
Police Department. You're the one that says 73?
A. Out of those 73?
Q. Out of those 73, I want to know how many were eliminated by way of handwriting?
A. If you're asking me how many of those 73 fell into the elimination category based on question
document examiner conclusions, is that what you're asking me?
Q. I think so.
A. Yeah.
Q. What is the answer?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't have any idea?
A. No. As I have previously said on the record that number is probably very few. The majority of
those, as I have said, fell into the no evidence to indicate category.
Q. Did a lot of them have similarities?
A. Did a lot of who?
Q. A lot of the 73 people, did their -- did their analysis show similarities?
A. I don't know, I'm not a handwriting expert.
__________________________________
Thomas says her habit of double indenting her closing and indenting her paragraphs are the same as the indents in the ransom note and therefore it adds to the evidence she wrote the note. I say if that is the most common way to format handwritten letters then it means nothing. It's like saying the letter is written in English, Patsy speaks English therefore that adds to the weight that Patsy wrote the letter.
In addition, in the same interview where he mentions the acronyms Thomas lies (as shown in his deposition answer) about Patsy being the "only one" who couldn't be eliminated.
http://www.acandyrose.com/04102000gma.htm
Vargas: . Thomas says they checked handwriting samples from 73 potential suspects, but only one person could not be ruled out as the author.
Thomas: And that one person happens to be Patsy Ramsey.
From Thomas deposition:
Q. And how many of the 73 were eliminated as the author of the note based on the handwriting
examples or exemplars?
A. I don't know.
Q. Not many, true?
A. I know that the majority fell into the no evidence to indicate category.
Q. But they couldn't go to elimination, could they?
A. Again, I don't know.
Q. Didn't you talk with the handwriting expert, sir?
A. Are we talking about the CBI expert?
Q. Any of them. There were four with respect to Patsy Ramsey, weren't there?
A. Yes.
Q. How many other of the 73 had four different examiners look at their handwriting?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know of any? Can you name one?
A. I'm trying to recall with those three additional examiners if other suspects' historical writings or
exemplars were provided to them. As I sit here today, I don't know. But if any, the number would be
few.
Q. Do you know whether the Boulder Police Department obtained historical writings with respect to
Chris Wolf's handwriting?
A. I don't know. I didn't get very far with Mr. Wolf, Mr. White -- or Mr. Wood, I'm sorry.
Q. That's okay. Fleet White's handwriting was tested?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Was he eliminated?
A. He fell into a category that he was no longer, if my understanding is correct, and this wasn't my
assignment, but by way of detective briefings, Mr. White was not in the running, if you will, by way of a
handwriting exemplar.
Q. My question is not in the running. My question is was he eliminated as the author of the note
based on a handwriting analysis conducted by the Boulder Police Department or the CBI?
A. I don't know what the CBI expert concluded as far as a categorical elimination of Mr. White.
Q. John Ramsey was categorically eliminated, wasn't he?
A. Again I would liken it to Mr. White. I simply learned that Mr. Ramsey was not a candidate
based on his handwriting.
Q. You don't know whether John Ramsey was eliminated by the examiner at CBI as an author of
the note based on that and his -- the analysis of his exemplars, you don't know that as we sit here
today?
A. He may very well have fallen into that majority of no evidence to indicate but if you're telling me
that he fell into the elimination category, I won't dispute that because we never had any concerns after
some of these results that he was the author of the note.
Q. Well, the question is not what I'm suggesting to you. Do you know? Do you have any idea
whether his report from CBI came back and said John Ramsey has been eliminated based on the CBI
analysis as the author of the ransom note? Do you know one way or the other, sir?
A. As to what category he fell into?
Q. Whether he was eliminated by the CBI analysis is my question, please, sir?
A. As to the category he fell into, including a category of elimination, I don't have personal
knowledge.
Q. Do you have any knowledge, secondary or otherwise?
A. As I told you a minute ago, Mr. Wood, it was my understanding from our briefings that he was
not a candidate as the author of the note. I don't know what else I can -- how many ways I can
answer that question for you.
Q. I just want to know if you know the results of the CBI analysis of John Ramsey's handwriting?
MR. DIAMOND: Any more clearly than he just told you?
MR. WOOD: That's my question. Do you want to answer for him? Because if so --
MR. DIAMOND: I think you --
MR. WOOD: -- I would love to swear you in and examine you under oath, but I think it would be a
waste of our time.
MR. DIAMOND: I think you're not listening to the answers. We're not --
MR. WOOD: Why don't you worry about your side of the table and let me worry about mine. If I'm
not understanding him, that's my fault. I mean, it's my walk away without the information, right? I
think I'm understanding. I'm just not sure I'm getting a straight answer. It seems to me that this
gentleman should know, as he claims to be one of the lead detectives on the case, whether John
Ramsey's CBI handwriting analysis came back elimination.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) And you don't know, do you?
A. As I have told you, Mr. Wood, I stand on my answer, yeah, I know that he was not -- that he was eliminated by way of handwriting. But if you're asking me if the CBI examiner reached a conclusion of elimination, I'm sitting here again telling you I don't have personal knowledge of that.
Q. Let me go that route because I think I understand you. Do you know how many of the 73 individuals were eliminated by way of handwriting?
A. By way of falling into the category of elimination.
Q. That were eliminated by way of handwriting, your words.
MR. DIAMOND: I think he means by the Boulder Police Department.
Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I mean that were eliminated by way of handwriting, certainly by the Boulder
Police Department. You're the one that says 73?
A. Out of those 73?
Q. Out of those 73, I want to know how many were eliminated by way of handwriting?
A. If you're asking me how many of those 73 fell into the elimination category based on question
document examiner conclusions, is that what you're asking me?
Q. I think so.
A. Yeah.
Q. What is the answer?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't have any idea?
A. No. As I have previously said on the record that number is probably very few. The majority of
those, as I have said, fell into the no evidence to indicate category.
Q. Did a lot of them have similarities?
A. Did a lot of who?
Q. A lot of the 73 people, did their -- did their analysis show similarities?
A. I don't know, I'm not a handwriting expert.
__________________________________
Shylock
Former Member
tipper said:
I wouldn't say Thomas "lies", Tipper. Thomas is just being pretty smart about giving the opposing side as little information as possible. Lin Wood knows that and even states his frustration; "I'm just not sure I'm getting a straight answer."
tipper
Former Member
You can call this "pretty smart" but I'd say one or the other is a lie. My guess is he told the truth while under oath.
Vargas: . Thomas says they checked handwriting samples from 73 potential suspects, but only one person could not be ruled out as the author.
Thomas: And that one person happens to be Patsy Ramsey.
____________________________
Wood:. Out of those 73, I want to know how many were eliminated by way of handwriting?
Thomas: I don't know.
Vargas: . Thomas says they checked handwriting samples from 73 potential suspects, but only one person could not be ruled out as the author.
Thomas: And that one person happens to be Patsy Ramsey.
____________________________
Wood:. Out of those 73, I want to know how many were eliminated by way of handwriting?
Thomas: I don't know.
Shylock
Former Member
tipper said:
Tipper, you sure don't give Thomas much credit, when he obviously stuck it to Wood by the whole tone of the deposition. Read the way he meant it:
Wood:. Out of those 73, I want to know how many were eliminated by way of handwriting?
Thomas: I'm not tellin you chit, Jackass.
BlueCrab
New Member
Shylock said:
Thomas is the jackass. Steve Thomas wasn't interested in telling the truth; he was interested in dragging his heels so his lies about the handwriting examination results wouldn't be exposed. Thomas wasn't interested in moving the murder investigation forward by correcting misinformation he was responsible for and admitting he was wrong. Thomas was interested in protecting his personal PDI theory from the truth.
Patsy was not the only person of 73 examined who couldn't be eliminated. Most couldn't be eliminated. In fact Patsy's 4.0 to 4.5 score put her on the verge of being eliminated as the note writer -- a much better score than many others. Thomas lied.
JMO
Cherokee
Well-Known Member
BlueCrab said:
Wrong again, BlueCrab. Steve Thomas wasn't going to give Lin Wood any MORE information than the Boulder DA hadn't already given Team Ramsey on a silver platter. ST was rightfully disgusted with the way Hunter got in bed with Haddon and the Ramseys. It was ethically and morally wrong for Hunter to give away case information to the prime suspects.
If ST had come up with a "Burke did it" scenario, you would love him. But it really galls you that the information he leaked in his book doesn't support your Burke wrote the ransom note theory, so you take every opportunity to discredit him.
There are several of us on this board who don't understand why you undermine a good BDI theory with your insistence that Patsy couldn't have written the ransom note. Burke could very well have "done it" with Patsy writing the ransom note to cover for him. But for some reason, that doesn't sit well with you even though document examiners, handwriting experts, linguistic experts and psychologists have all said Patsy wrote the ransom note. Sounds like you're very interested in protecting YOUR personal BDI theory "from the truth."
And now, I'm through. I'm tired of going around behind you trying to correct misinformation for the newbies (and anyone else interested). For all they know, you are telling the truth when you say ...
"Patsy was not the only person of 73 examined who couldn't be eliminated. Most couldn't be eliminated. In fact Patsy's 4.0 to 4.5 score put her on the verge of being eliminated as the note writer -- a much better score than many others."
But you're not telling the truth. You are skewing the facts, and twisting the words of experts (in documented evidence) to fit your theory, even though you have been begged to stop.
So here's the deal.
I don't care anymore if you twist the facts. I don't care if you mislead a thousand newbies. I have a life, and I don't have the time to try to correct all the misinformation you post regarding Patsy's handwriting analysis.
So, I'm posting it one last time for the record and for the archives. That's all I can do.
Patsy was never on the verge of being eliminated as the ransom note writer by anyone. She could not even be eliminated by her own "bought and paid for" experts.
Patsy wrote the ransom note. Patsy knows what happened that night, but she'll go to her grave rationalizing, and telling herself, that God has forgiven her (and anyone else involved) because JonBenet is in a "better place." Patsy has said she is glad JonBenet will never know the pain of cancer, nor of losing a child. Patsy has said JonBenet fulfilled her purpose on earth. She is just waiting for Mommy to join her.
IMO
Spade
Inactive
Cherokee.
A year ago I hooked up BlueCrab into a 3 way call with Tom Miller who tried to tell him that the exemplars in the scrapbook were not Burke's and that he (Miller) had original exemplars of Patsy's handwriting. BC didn't hear what he was told. I agree with you, BC's insistence that Patsy didn't write the note detracts from following more logical scenarios.
A year ago I hooked up BlueCrab into a 3 way call with Tom Miller who tried to tell him that the exemplars in the scrapbook were not Burke's and that he (Miller) had original exemplars of Patsy's handwriting. BC didn't hear what he was told. I agree with you, BC's insistence that Patsy didn't write the note detracts from following more logical scenarios.
Sprocket
Former Member
So, the bluecrab is continually insisting he has the facts correctly, and continues to discredit Steve Thomas. History has borne out, that although whistle blowers go public with the knowledge that they have because of high inner moral values and a conscience, Steve Thomas suffered the fate of many whistle blowers. Slandered and discredited, for doing the right thing..
Shylock
Former Member
You got that one right, Cherokee. I guess most people have never been through a deposition so they don't know what they are like. Thomas wasn't doing anything except what every other person does when deposed--play stupid. The last thing you want to do is give the other side any more information they they already have.Cherokee said:
I DO think Thomas did get some personal satisfaction in giving Lin Wood the same "I don't know, can't remember, not sure...blah, blah" answers the Ramseys gave the BPD during their interviews. Payback may be a , but it's good for the soul.
BlueCrab
New Member
Spade said:
Spade,
I heard what Tom Miller told me, and I simply didn't buy it. He said he didn't conduct the handwriting examination signed on 11/3/97, which is on the internet at ACandyRose's website under "Darnay Hoffman File", in which he used exemplars from Burke Ramsey's personal photo album.
http://www.acandyrose.com/
As you can see, Miller did indeed employ the Burke Ramsey photo album exemplars for his 11/3/97 handwriting examination which he (and other Hoffman examiners) used to arrive at his conclusion that Patsy likely wrote the ransom note.
However, IMO the exemplars from the photo album were NOT Patsy's exemplars. They were Burke's exemplars. The handwriting in Burke's photo album appear to be Burke's handwriting -- not Patsy's handwriting. Therefore, if I am correct about who wrote the captions in the photo album, what Hoffman's examiners proved was that Burke likely wrote the ransom note.
JMO
Shylock
Former Member
And I suppose Burke also wrote the pageant applications and Christmas card that was also used in the analysis?BlueCrab said:
There are other writings of patsy's that match the writing on the photos. (The Marilyn Monroe badge is a perfect example.) Other writings by Patsy prove she not only wrote the photo captions (and played stupid about it in her deposition), but she wrote the ransom note.
vic
New Member
So, you have seen Burke's exemplars and that is what you base this conclusion on?
Steve Thomas had more of Patsy's exemplars than he would admit to. He was not going to give Lin Wood any more information that would jeapordize the case period. Steve did say in his book that Nedra handed him a letter that Patsy wrote to her the day before and that he noticed that Patsy had changed her letter A.
There is no doubt in my mind that Patsy wrote the note. If you look at her Christmas letters you will find similarities there.
I still want to know who filled out the TAX FORM for the year 2001.
IMO
There is no doubt in my mind that Patsy wrote the note. If you look at her Christmas letters you will find similarities there.
I still want to know who filled out the TAX FORM for the year 2001.
IMO
less0305
The face is familiar, but I can't quite remember m
Toltec,
I'm sort of new....what's the deal with the tax forms?
I'm sort of new....what's the deal with the tax forms?