This is sort of just part one of a theory. The pineapple has been eaten. The blow to the head has been made, but not only do the parents not realize this (though subconsciously they may have noticed this was a bit more than an "amazingly deep sleep-" a thought that may come back to them as events unfold,) they have unwittingly put their dying daughter to bed. John has gone upstairs to take a melatonin and do a bit of reading before falling asleep. Patsy has resumed the packing she will never finish, Burke is in his room, JonBenet in hers.
What's eating you alive re this case?
- Thread starter madeleine
- Start date
This is sort of just part one of a theory. The pineapple has been eaten. The blow to the head has been made, but not only do the parents not realize this (though subconsciously they may have noticed this was a bit more than an "amazingly deep sleep-" a thought that may come back to them as events unfold,) they have unwittingly put their dying daughter to bed. John has gone upstairs to take a melatonin and do a bit of reading before falling asleep. Patsy has resumed the packing she will never finish, Burke is in his room, JonBenet in hers.
ElleElle
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Could be something that the GJ found out with regards to child endangerment:
1. JBR was being drugged regularly ... klonopin?
2. Sexual / physical abuse cover up.
3. Destroy their "perfect family" image.
Just a few things.
My sentiments exactly. Who knows what JR might have thought at the time? But even if you're right, maddy, I don't think there was time for another one, IF Patsy was up to try again.
wannagonorth, have you and Heymom seen this:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?87820-No-Honor-Among-Thieves
Ego, curiousjo. They couldn't admit to having done anything wrong. That, and the condition of JB's vagina would have been a noose around someone's neck for sure!
bethanna2004
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That bogus ransom note!!!!!!!! OMG..........And that there no latent fingerprints on it. Who the hell is gonna come across papers spread across the stairs and not pick them up and read them? Give me a break!!!!!!
IF this was an intruder, and he sneaks into the house, and he goes up to JonBenet's room, and he disables her in some way, and he takes her out of the room and leads her downstairs with the idea of taking her from the house.....
....why does he even go back down into the basement?
Why not just leave the house through the unlocked door in the kitchen? Isn't that the easiest and quickest way to get out? I haven't looked at the layout in a while, but doesn't the back kitchen door lead right out to the area of the basement window?
If it's an intruder, they clearly know the house and have spent time in the kitchen writing the note or gathering the materials to write the note, and possibly even fed JonBenet pineapple in the kitchen. To me, It just doesn't make sense to essentially 'trap' yourself in the basement. It hastens his exit -- it makes it longer and harder. That never made sense to me.
....why does he even go back down into the basement?
Why not just leave the house through the unlocked door in the kitchen? Isn't that the easiest and quickest way to get out? I haven't looked at the layout in a while, but doesn't the back kitchen door lead right out to the area of the basement window?
If it's an intruder, they clearly know the house and have spent time in the kitchen writing the note or gathering the materials to write the note, and possibly even fed JonBenet pineapple in the kitchen. To me, It just doesn't make sense to essentially 'trap' yourself in the basement. It hastens his exit -- it makes it longer and harder. That never made sense to me.
Heymom
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Also, if you look at the height of those steps, there is NO WAY Patsy could have stepped over an entire step to avoid the note spread out on the step. I mean, physically, it would have been difficult to do even by a very tall man, let alone Patsy. She never did that. They may have spread the note on the steps and taken photos of it, but she never skipped a step and stepped over it.
Heymom
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None of it makes sense. The pineapple really throws a huge kink in the story, because a kidnapper would not have given her a snack in the first place, just snatched her and gotten the he!! out of there pronto to avoid being caught.
PositiveLight
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Ok... tried looking for a place to post these things that either bother me or I'm still trying to figure out. It's basically notes I've written for myself as I read a candy rose site. Or things that popped out at me and I jotted them down to look into later. It could've been from another poster or another thread. If there's not a link then I'm still researching it for myself. But maybe some of y'all can help me get answers or at least links to continue to research.
Thanks in Advance!!!
Also... most of the quotes are from a candy rose. The link I provide unless stated otherwise. Some thoughts are just that. Thoughts. Still looking for concrete evidence on some things.
Bare with me... it's not very linear.
What is known or stated by family.
Christmas Eve, JonBenet slept with her brother so he could wake her up.
Burke woke up at 5am and let JonBenet sleep a little longer "Because she was sleeping deep".
Tried to wake parents but they had told them to wait until a certain time.
Burke and JonBenet played in Burke's room on his nintendo. Was it the 64 or an older version? Didn't he not like her playing with
the nintendo because she was slow at it? How long until they got up to open presents? Did both peek?
The Bike Theory or Story
Was there three bikes when only 2 bikes were seen in pictures?
The body
In 2002 Dr. Spitz said the supposed stun gun marks on face appear to be from the snap of a button. There was a pink
snap button on the shirt left on JonBenet's bed.
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-thebody.htm
Her black dress on the extra bed had silver snaps. Worn to Whites on the 25th.
http://www.acandyrose.com/005jonbenetbedXXLARGE.jpg
Possible 1st ligature is the curtain tie? Is that why Patsy was looking for blood stains?
http://www.acandyrose.com/000jonbenetsbedroomXXLARGE.jpg
JonBenet was making a potholder and it is the colorful object on the bed. Could yarn be the first strangulation item?
http://www.acandyrose.com/005jonbenetbedXXLARGE.jpg
Supposed stain on carpet here. PR describes it here in this link but she mumbles.
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm
PAtsy states she did NOT take JonBenet to the bathroom that night to potty.
THOMAS HANEY: Did you -- did you take JonBenet to the bathroom prior to putting her to bed? PATSY RAMSEY: No.
THOMAS HANEY: Would she have gotten up during the night and gone to the bathroom? PATSY RAMSEY: Possibly.
THOMAS HANEY: If she did, would she have flushed? PATSY RAMSEY: Not necessarily
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm
Referring to the step stool.
THOMAS HANEY: Did she move it around, though, to use it to reach other things that were higher up in her room?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. TRIP DeMUTH: Maybe up on the Christmas tree, an ornament or something?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, it was a little tippy, you know. It would have been pretty tippy on carpet.
(((TH touches on an idea I had regarding JonBenet's Christmas tree ornaments. Could one of them have
caused the vaginal injury? Is there a close up of her tree and Burke's to see if there is an ornament
that could caused it?)))))
THOMAS HANEY: Did you ever have a concern with her playing out there on that patio, though?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. I mean I didn't like her being out there.
But you couldn't lock it so that you couldn't get from the inside to the outside.
You just pulled down the handle, you could go out. If the door closed behind, then it was locked, then you can't get in.
TRIP DeMUTH: So if you operate the door handle from inside, you know, sometimes when you operate a door handle
from inside it unlocks the door and you have to relock it when you leave? PATSY RAMSEY: Right, right.
TRIP DeMUTH: Would this one stay locked after you operated the door handle or would it unlock when you
operated the door handle? PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
((((This was strange to me. It made no sense. Did the door automatically lock or not? I'ts not a difficult
question to answer. Plus! If you really didn't want your kid to go out on the balcony, then you could use
a higher lock she couldn't reach or as my aunt did, use a screw in the top of the door to keep it from opening.
Easy for an adult to remove from the inside but a child couldn't reach.)))))
Is it possible that the photos that were tossed in the basement were possibly those Polaroid cameras that
spit out a picture automatically? These could possibly be done by Burke Ramsey and no need to develop the photos.
(((((would PR put a jungle gym from the playroom to JonBenet's patio if she didn't want her out there playing?))))))
"(0278-05) TRIP DeMUTH: There is nothing unusual on the patio in 25, 26 or 27?
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. I moved this out there from the
TRIP DeMUTH: That's the mulit-colored jungle gym thing?
PATSY RAMSEY: Right. TRIP DeMUTH: So that's where it belongs? PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I put it out there."
((((PR doesn't answer Trip's question.))))
(0385-04) TRIP DEMUTH: Which drawer, looking at photo 18? PATSY RAMSEY: These.
TRIP DEMUTH: This is her bathroom, her sink. Which drawer would the Barbie doll nightgown have been kept in?
PATSY RAMSEY: Probably that one or the one below it. TRIP DEMUTH: The one that is opened or below it right there in photo 18?
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
(((If the bed set low to the ground and you couldn't fit a suitcase under there, how could a person fit under there?)))
"(0279-18) TRIP DeMUTH: Did you keep anything underneath that bed? My wife stores things under our bed.
PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't have anything under there. Get them out of the way sometimes. Could have been
anything under there. I don't know. THOMAS HANEY: This dust ruffle?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it's not hanging very straight right there. You know, it should be falling a little more smoothly.
(INAUDIBLE.) THOMAS HANEY: What did you say? PATSY RAMSEY: I say I am wondering if somebody was under that bed.
That was -- THOMAS HANEY: Did you go under that bed for anything when you were packing?
PATSY RAMSEY: No. I can't remember. I mean, I never had a habit of putting things under that bed.
Because it was -- it sat low, kind of low board, you couldn't get much under there."
"(0502-23) LOU SMIT: Take a look at the ruffle on the bed. JOHN RAMSEY: It's disturbed.
And I didn't look under the bed. It's pulled out. LOU SMIT: Is that something that would be usual or unusual?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it may be a bit unusual. That room didn't get used much and the cleaning ladies would clean
it and make it neat and Patsy used it to fold laundry, on top of the bed, but it didn't get used. So you know,
somebody would have straightened that out when they cleaned the room, I am sure. It's a little unusual I would say."
((((Question who all pays attention to a dust ruffle slightly out of place?? PR had been in there standing next to the bed
folding clothes and packing suitcases. The ruffle could have easily been disturbed by her movements. Plus JR doesn't
seem to be the type to even notice such things. PR wasn't an immaculate housekeeper. The dust ruffle is nonsense.)))
(((((This to me, is distraction. It's bogus diversion tactics. "Look at this but don't look at this! Plus...
I thought John had searched the dang house already? Why did he never check the closets!??!)))))
(((OK. PR says she doesn't know how these tapes got on the floor. I have a small theory about this. I think PR and JR
made BR get any evidence of improper behavior together so they could get rid of them. I think this may be
where BR kept his stash of photos that were eventually tossed downstairs. Maybe even a video of her too?)))
"
(0383-05) THOMAS HANEY: 31. PATSY RAMSEY: We had run a videotape out there. I wonder why those are out there.
(INAUDIBLE.) TRIP DeMUTH: Do you keep videotapes in that room? PATSY RAMSEY: There was some videos in this cabinet here,
mostly ones that were older, you know, that the kids used more when they were really young, with Barney
and those kind of things. I don't know why those would be on the floor. TRIP DeMUTH: Were you going to take
videos with you to Charlevoix or to the Big Red Boat for any reason? PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, we may have wanted
to take some to Charlevoix, but typically the ones that the kids had watched, you know, more currently, would be in their room."
(((Ok this strikes me as odd. As I study this case I try to look for things that may lead to further ideas. Could the reason
the green tupperware container that held PR's summer clothes possibly been an alternate way to get rid of the body? I
think a body would fit in one of these better than the suitcase that some have said could have been used at one point to
try and hide her body. Obviously they didn't use it but I wonder if it was discussed that night between the parents.)))
"TRIP DeMUTH: Yes. What's that, the -- PATSY RAMSEY: That's where I kept summer clothes, you know, when I transitioned.
TRIP DeMUTH: And you're referring to the large -- PATSY RAMSEY: Tupperware trunk kind of thing. Green.
Probably digging in there looking for shorts and beach wear, things that I wanted to wear."
(((I found this lady's answer very well thought out. It makes the IDI theory basically dead in the water.)))
On Nancy Grace (I know, I know lol) Sheryl McCullum- Crime analyst and Director of Cold Case Squad at Pine Lake PD stated:
"All in this same house. And this killer felt so at home on Christmas Eve, he went up and down the steps, stayed in the
home a while. Went and found the pen. Went and got her blanket. Went and got a toy. Yeah he was in no hurry to leave this
house, this stranger. And don't forget the chronic vaginal injury."
NG- "Explain."
SM- "On the autopsy report it explains in great detail that JonBenet suffered chronic vaginal injury which means she
was molested over a period of time. So again, this stranger would have to have access to her you know and then
harm her sexually and then come in the house and kill her at another time."
I need to check the sizes of the crosses to see if they've changed.
(((Maybe JR and PR weren't sleeping in the same bed after all. She refers to JAR's room as her bedroom. She was no
longer doing chemo so why was she still referring to that bathroom as hers?)))
"(0284-05) THOMAS HANEY: 32? PATSY RAMSEY: That's the bathroom to my bedroom. THOMAS HANEY: Is that normally used by anybody?
PATSY RAMSEY: Not on a day-to-day basis, not really. I don't know why the drawers would have been out, but..."
(((Patsy continues to answer her question which made me think... was she looking for maybe some kind of medication
to sedate or finish her off but couldn't find it? OR was she getting GLOVES out to keep from leaving fingerprints
during the staging! She mentions a thermometer which her reasoning really sounded odd. Maybe she used the thermometer
to check JonBenet's body temp to see if she was dying? Maybe they used the alcohol wipes to
clean her body of evidence. IMHO she was after gloves. See what you think. ))))
(0284-23) THOMAS HANEY: What's normally stored in those? PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that's usually where I kept my
supplies for my -- when I was taking chemo, when I had my shots and my little alcohol wipes, thermometers,
and all that of stuff. And I could have been looking through, looking for a thermometer to take on vacation.
TRIP DeMUTH: What's in the draw below that one? There are two drawers open? PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, I don't know.
I just hadn't used it, all that area, that much."
(((Another obvious lie. If she wasn't still living in that room (IMHO she was sleeping there), she DID use it during her
cancer and recovery. So she was surely aware what was in there. Leaving the drawers open was another mistake on
their part during the staging. She sounded frustrated in the transcript at this point.))))
(((I have to add that Trip Demuth should never question another suspect until he's trained properly. He fills in sentences for
PR and interrupts her. He should have been more 'in your face' with her and just asked a question and sit back in silence.
Give the suspect time to reply then leave it awkwardly silent. PR would have gotten nervous and started talking and in the
extra things she could say could have given them valuable information.He did not perform this interview well. JMOO but it's like
the old saying,' give a person enough rope and they will hang themselves.' So if he had shut up and just listened, PR
would have rambled into telling more details than she had rehearsed.)))
(((Didn't Burke say he owned a pair of hightec boots with a compass on them?))))
"(0304-04) THOMAS HANEY: Do you own any Hi-Tech (phonetic) footwear? PATSY RAMSEY: No. THOMAS HANEY: How about John?
PATSY RAMSEY: No. THOMAS HANEY: Anybody in the family that you know of has it? PATSY RAMSEY: No."
(((What was so important about the red jumpsuit? Is this another diversion tactic? Another "red" herring?)))
"(0310-04) THOMAS HANEY: In 50, that's another shot of that ironing board? TRIP DeMUTH: They do that for every roll,
they put that in, identifying the roll. (Mumbling.) (INAUDIBLE.) PATSY RAMSEY: I wonder where the little red suit is,
her little red -- that little jumpsuit. Which I don't see a picture in this. That was that morning.
THOMAS HANEY: Right, and I think we will come to that, yes. Go on to 51."
Thanks in Advance!!!
Also... most of the quotes are from a candy rose. The link I provide unless stated otherwise. Some thoughts are just that. Thoughts. Still looking for concrete evidence on some things.
Bare with me... it's not very linear.
What is known or stated by family.
Christmas Eve, JonBenet slept with her brother so he could wake her up.
Burke woke up at 5am and let JonBenet sleep a little longer "Because she was sleeping deep".
Tried to wake parents but they had told them to wait until a certain time.
Burke and JonBenet played in Burke's room on his nintendo. Was it the 64 or an older version? Didn't he not like her playing with
the nintendo because she was slow at it? How long until they got up to open presents? Did both peek?
The Bike Theory or Story
Was there three bikes when only 2 bikes were seen in pictures?
The body
In 2002 Dr. Spitz said the supposed stun gun marks on face appear to be from the snap of a button. There was a pink
snap button on the shirt left on JonBenet's bed.
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-thebody.htm
Her black dress on the extra bed had silver snaps. Worn to Whites on the 25th.
http://www.acandyrose.com/005jonbenetbedXXLARGE.jpg
Possible 1st ligature is the curtain tie? Is that why Patsy was looking for blood stains?
http://www.acandyrose.com/000jonbenetsbedroomXXLARGE.jpg
JonBenet was making a potholder and it is the colorful object on the bed. Could yarn be the first strangulation item?
http://www.acandyrose.com/005jonbenetbedXXLARGE.jpg
Supposed stain on carpet here. PR describes it here in this link but she mumbles.
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm
PAtsy states she did NOT take JonBenet to the bathroom that night to potty.
THOMAS HANEY: Did you -- did you take JonBenet to the bathroom prior to putting her to bed? PATSY RAMSEY: No.
THOMAS HANEY: Would she have gotten up during the night and gone to the bathroom? PATSY RAMSEY: Possibly.
THOMAS HANEY: If she did, would she have flushed? PATSY RAMSEY: Not necessarily
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm
Referring to the step stool.
THOMAS HANEY: Did she move it around, though, to use it to reach other things that were higher up in her room?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. TRIP DeMUTH: Maybe up on the Christmas tree, an ornament or something?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, it was a little tippy, you know. It would have been pretty tippy on carpet.
(((TH touches on an idea I had regarding JonBenet's Christmas tree ornaments. Could one of them have
caused the vaginal injury? Is there a close up of her tree and Burke's to see if there is an ornament
that could caused it?)))))
THOMAS HANEY: Did you ever have a concern with her playing out there on that patio, though?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yes. I mean I didn't like her being out there.
But you couldn't lock it so that you couldn't get from the inside to the outside.
You just pulled down the handle, you could go out. If the door closed behind, then it was locked, then you can't get in.
TRIP DeMUTH: So if you operate the door handle from inside, you know, sometimes when you operate a door handle
from inside it unlocks the door and you have to relock it when you leave? PATSY RAMSEY: Right, right.
TRIP DeMUTH: Would this one stay locked after you operated the door handle or would it unlock when you
operated the door handle? PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
((((This was strange to me. It made no sense. Did the door automatically lock or not? I'ts not a difficult
question to answer. Plus! If you really didn't want your kid to go out on the balcony, then you could use
a higher lock she couldn't reach or as my aunt did, use a screw in the top of the door to keep it from opening.
Easy for an adult to remove from the inside but a child couldn't reach.)))))
Is it possible that the photos that were tossed in the basement were possibly those Polaroid cameras that
spit out a picture automatically? These could possibly be done by Burke Ramsey and no need to develop the photos.
(((((would PR put a jungle gym from the playroom to JonBenet's patio if she didn't want her out there playing?))))))
"(0278-05) TRIP DeMUTH: There is nothing unusual on the patio in 25, 26 or 27?
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. I moved this out there from the
TRIP DeMUTH: That's the mulit-colored jungle gym thing?
PATSY RAMSEY: Right. TRIP DeMUTH: So that's where it belongs? PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I put it out there."
((((PR doesn't answer Trip's question.))))
(0385-04) TRIP DEMUTH: Which drawer, looking at photo 18? PATSY RAMSEY: These.
TRIP DEMUTH: This is her bathroom, her sink. Which drawer would the Barbie doll nightgown have been kept in?
PATSY RAMSEY: Probably that one or the one below it. TRIP DEMUTH: The one that is opened or below it right there in photo 18?
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
(((If the bed set low to the ground and you couldn't fit a suitcase under there, how could a person fit under there?)))
"(0279-18) TRIP DeMUTH: Did you keep anything underneath that bed? My wife stores things under our bed.
PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't have anything under there. Get them out of the way sometimes. Could have been
anything under there. I don't know. THOMAS HANEY: This dust ruffle?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it's not hanging very straight right there. You know, it should be falling a little more smoothly.
(INAUDIBLE.) THOMAS HANEY: What did you say? PATSY RAMSEY: I say I am wondering if somebody was under that bed.
That was -- THOMAS HANEY: Did you go under that bed for anything when you were packing?
PATSY RAMSEY: No. I can't remember. I mean, I never had a habit of putting things under that bed.
Because it was -- it sat low, kind of low board, you couldn't get much under there."
"(0502-23) LOU SMIT: Take a look at the ruffle on the bed. JOHN RAMSEY: It's disturbed.
And I didn't look under the bed. It's pulled out. LOU SMIT: Is that something that would be usual or unusual?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it may be a bit unusual. That room didn't get used much and the cleaning ladies would clean
it and make it neat and Patsy used it to fold laundry, on top of the bed, but it didn't get used. So you know,
somebody would have straightened that out when they cleaned the room, I am sure. It's a little unusual I would say."
((((Question who all pays attention to a dust ruffle slightly out of place?? PR had been in there standing next to the bed
folding clothes and packing suitcases. The ruffle could have easily been disturbed by her movements. Plus JR doesn't
seem to be the type to even notice such things. PR wasn't an immaculate housekeeper. The dust ruffle is nonsense.)))
(((((This to me, is distraction. It's bogus diversion tactics. "Look at this but don't look at this! Plus...
I thought John had searched the dang house already? Why did he never check the closets!??!)))))
(((OK. PR says she doesn't know how these tapes got on the floor. I have a small theory about this. I think PR and JR
made BR get any evidence of improper behavior together so they could get rid of them. I think this may be
where BR kept his stash of photos that were eventually tossed downstairs. Maybe even a video of her too?)))
"
(0383-05) THOMAS HANEY: 31. PATSY RAMSEY: We had run a videotape out there. I wonder why those are out there.
(INAUDIBLE.) TRIP DeMUTH: Do you keep videotapes in that room? PATSY RAMSEY: There was some videos in this cabinet here,
mostly ones that were older, you know, that the kids used more when they were really young, with Barney
and those kind of things. I don't know why those would be on the floor. TRIP DeMUTH: Were you going to take
videos with you to Charlevoix or to the Big Red Boat for any reason? PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, we may have wanted
to take some to Charlevoix, but typically the ones that the kids had watched, you know, more currently, would be in their room."
(((Ok this strikes me as odd. As I study this case I try to look for things that may lead to further ideas. Could the reason
the green tupperware container that held PR's summer clothes possibly been an alternate way to get rid of the body? I
think a body would fit in one of these better than the suitcase that some have said could have been used at one point to
try and hide her body. Obviously they didn't use it but I wonder if it was discussed that night between the parents.)))
"TRIP DeMUTH: Yes. What's that, the -- PATSY RAMSEY: That's where I kept summer clothes, you know, when I transitioned.
TRIP DeMUTH: And you're referring to the large -- PATSY RAMSEY: Tupperware trunk kind of thing. Green.
Probably digging in there looking for shorts and beach wear, things that I wanted to wear."
(((I found this lady's answer very well thought out. It makes the IDI theory basically dead in the water.)))
On Nancy Grace (I know, I know lol) Sheryl McCullum- Crime analyst and Director of Cold Case Squad at Pine Lake PD stated:
"All in this same house. And this killer felt so at home on Christmas Eve, he went up and down the steps, stayed in the
home a while. Went and found the pen. Went and got her blanket. Went and got a toy. Yeah he was in no hurry to leave this
house, this stranger. And don't forget the chronic vaginal injury."
NG- "Explain."
SM- "On the autopsy report it explains in great detail that JonBenet suffered chronic vaginal injury which means she
was molested over a period of time. So again, this stranger would have to have access to her you know and then
harm her sexually and then come in the house and kill her at another time."
I need to check the sizes of the crosses to see if they've changed.
(((Maybe JR and PR weren't sleeping in the same bed after all. She refers to JAR's room as her bedroom. She was no
longer doing chemo so why was she still referring to that bathroom as hers?)))
"(0284-05) THOMAS HANEY: 32? PATSY RAMSEY: That's the bathroom to my bedroom. THOMAS HANEY: Is that normally used by anybody?
PATSY RAMSEY: Not on a day-to-day basis, not really. I don't know why the drawers would have been out, but..."
(((Patsy continues to answer her question which made me think... was she looking for maybe some kind of medication
to sedate or finish her off but couldn't find it? OR was she getting GLOVES out to keep from leaving fingerprints
during the staging! She mentions a thermometer which her reasoning really sounded odd. Maybe she used the thermometer
to check JonBenet's body temp to see if she was dying? Maybe they used the alcohol wipes to
clean her body of evidence. IMHO she was after gloves. See what you think. ))))
(0284-23) THOMAS HANEY: What's normally stored in those? PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that's usually where I kept my
supplies for my -- when I was taking chemo, when I had my shots and my little alcohol wipes, thermometers,
and all that of stuff. And I could have been looking through, looking for a thermometer to take on vacation.
TRIP DeMUTH: What's in the draw below that one? There are two drawers open? PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, I don't know.
I just hadn't used it, all that area, that much."
(((Another obvious lie. If she wasn't still living in that room (IMHO she was sleeping there), she DID use it during her
cancer and recovery. So she was surely aware what was in there. Leaving the drawers open was another mistake on
their part during the staging. She sounded frustrated in the transcript at this point.))))
(((I have to add that Trip Demuth should never question another suspect until he's trained properly. He fills in sentences for
PR and interrupts her. He should have been more 'in your face' with her and just asked a question and sit back in silence.
Give the suspect time to reply then leave it awkwardly silent. PR would have gotten nervous and started talking and in the
extra things she could say could have given them valuable information.He did not perform this interview well. JMOO but it's like
the old saying,' give a person enough rope and they will hang themselves.' So if he had shut up and just listened, PR
would have rambled into telling more details than she had rehearsed.)))
(((Didn't Burke say he owned a pair of hightec boots with a compass on them?))))
"(0304-04) THOMAS HANEY: Do you own any Hi-Tech (phonetic) footwear? PATSY RAMSEY: No. THOMAS HANEY: How about John?
PATSY RAMSEY: No. THOMAS HANEY: Anybody in the family that you know of has it? PATSY RAMSEY: No."
(((What was so important about the red jumpsuit? Is this another diversion tactic? Another "red" herring?)))
"(0310-04) THOMAS HANEY: In 50, that's another shot of that ironing board? TRIP DeMUTH: They do that for every roll,
they put that in, identifying the roll. (Mumbling.) (INAUDIBLE.) PATSY RAMSEY: I wonder where the little red suit is,
her little red -- that little jumpsuit. Which I don't see a picture in this. That was that morning.
THOMAS HANEY: Right, and I think we will come to that, yes. Go on to 51."
PositiveLight
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Something else that I found interesting.
The knife.
In BR early interviews 13 days after JonBenet's death, he describes what he thinks happened to JonBenet. He mentions a knife
being used in the kidnapping. The following quotes discuss a knife in the upstairs kitchen.
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm
(0333-01) TRIP DEMUTH: Fifty-seven and 58. - (0333-15) PATSY RAMSEY: A kitchen knife.
TOM HANEY: What would that be doing there? PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. TOM HANEY: It does look like a kitchen knife.
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. I don't know what it is doing there. TOM HANEY: Do you recall yourself having anything
to do with that knife being there? PATSY RAMSEY: No. Is it on something? Is that -- (0334-05)
PATSY RAMSEY: I'm not sure if that is one of my kitchen knives, to tell you the truth. That must be something.
TOM HANEY: We would have that. PATSY RAMSEY: I could see that. In the picture it looks like it is a very thin blade,
like a grapefruit knife or something. TOM HANEY: What about the handle? PATSY RAMSEY: I had some wooden handle knives,
but I don't know why I would have it there in the kitchen, you know. I don't know why it is there.
(0775-14) LOU SMIT: Also on photograph number 58, that's a photograph of the upstairs laundry room area?
JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum. LOU SMIT: There is a knife on the counter. What do you recall about that?
JOHN RAMSEY: Um, nothing. That looks like a kitchen -- a knife that would normally be in the kitchen.
It's hard to tell. Looks like it might be a grapefruit knife or something. We normally didn't prepare
any food at that counter. LOU SMIT: Do you ever recall that knife being there before? JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall, no.
The knife.
In BR early interviews 13 days after JonBenet's death, he describes what he thinks happened to JonBenet. He mentions a knife
being used in the kidnapping. The following quotes discuss a knife in the upstairs kitchen.
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm
(0333-01) TRIP DEMUTH: Fifty-seven and 58. - (0333-15) PATSY RAMSEY: A kitchen knife.
TOM HANEY: What would that be doing there? PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. TOM HANEY: It does look like a kitchen knife.
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. I don't know what it is doing there. TOM HANEY: Do you recall yourself having anything
to do with that knife being there? PATSY RAMSEY: No. Is it on something? Is that -- (0334-05)
PATSY RAMSEY: I'm not sure if that is one of my kitchen knives, to tell you the truth. That must be something.
TOM HANEY: We would have that. PATSY RAMSEY: I could see that. In the picture it looks like it is a very thin blade,
like a grapefruit knife or something. TOM HANEY: What about the handle? PATSY RAMSEY: I had some wooden handle knives,
but I don't know why I would have it there in the kitchen, you know. I don't know why it is there.
(0775-14) LOU SMIT: Also on photograph number 58, that's a photograph of the upstairs laundry room area?
JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum. LOU SMIT: There is a knife on the counter. What do you recall about that?
JOHN RAMSEY: Um, nothing. That looks like a kitchen -- a knife that would normally be in the kitchen.
It's hard to tell. Looks like it might be a grapefruit knife or something. We normally didn't prepare
any food at that counter. LOU SMIT: Do you ever recall that knife being there before? JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall, no.
singularity
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Good post PL. I don't have the time to go through all that at the moment but a few things..
Once the questioning veers into other areas(such as the basement and suitcase), they'll admit the suitcase is his and talk about him using it for his clothing when he comes home but once things start veering back to that room, it morphs into Patsy's room once again. By doing this they are unintentionally placing more emphasis on that room when they are trying to do the exact opposite. They don't fool me. Something was going on in that room or the one who occupied the room wouldn't change depending on the subject matter.
John's interview with Smit is disgusting and verging on dark comedy. It's almost completely worthless.
There are so many different paths this case could have traveled if John doesn't take that extra trip down to the basement.
IMO to muddy the waters. The few times this is brought up they are quick to distance him from that room. On one hand, Patsy says its her room yet when asked specific details about its contents, plays dumb. It's obviously his room. If he came home that day I think we know where he would've slept. In his room.
Once the questioning veers into other areas(such as the basement and suitcase), they'll admit the suitcase is his and talk about him using it for his clothing when he comes home but once things start veering back to that room, it morphs into Patsy's room once again. By doing this they are unintentionally placing more emphasis on that room when they are trying to do the exact opposite. They don't fool me. Something was going on in that room or the one who occupied the room wouldn't change depending on the subject matter.
I've wanted to scream while reading the transcripts. There are quite a few slip ups and potential gotcha moments that just get a free pass. Like you said, the interruptions and finishing sentences is unreal and pure incompetence. They swoop in and save Patsy several times. The worst examples are when she asks them out of the blue if they see any blood there(in Jonbenet's room). They just move on like she hadn't said a word. Someone with half a brain could have turned the investigation around with that slip up. The other was when questioning her about Jonbenet and abuse and as Patsy is on the verge of telling them she knows something, they interrupt her before she can finish her sentence and get her off track. She recovers nicely, thanks to them. She didn't even need an attorney present because they had that base covered. When you mix incompetence with Patsy's ability to manipulate, the results are these interviews.
John's interview with Smit is disgusting and verging on dark comedy. It's almost completely worthless.
While its possible, I have serious doubts that they had any plans on removing her body. If it was even considered at any point that night/morning, it's crazy that if John doesn't go back down there to "discover" her body, he likely would have had a chance to move her later that night. The cops were never going to find her...obviously. They had already photographed the basement and had given up. His main problem after that would have been knowing he would be followed by FBI as it would have still been in the kidnapping phase at that point.
There are so many different paths this case could have traveled if John doesn't take that extra trip down to the basement.
PositiveLight
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I think
that this case would be excellent to train detectives on what NOT to do. I sure do hope LE have learned from this case. I'm still going through a candy rose site before moving on to other things. I will add as I go here I guess. It seems a logical thread to post my thoughts in.
singularity
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On the subject of Burke and knives, I find this kitchen knife more interesting than the other. It's completely out of place....doesn't belong there at all. It doesn't mean he put it there but someone did. Was someone in this house being chased with a knife? Who was doing the chasing? Who was being chased? Did some incident with a knife possibly light the fuse for something even worse?
As I've said before, I think whatever happened that night started as some sort of domestic dispute that spun out of control. I highly doubt it played out in this bludgeon over snack, drag her to the basement, strangle her scenario regardless of which person killed her. too quick, simple, and conveniently wrapped up scenario to explain away a possibly complex, complicated series of events that may have occured in stages. It doesn't have to happen 1-2-3-finished. People aren't robots. Its also not a movie. Domestic disputes are extremely unpredictable.
Its why I can easily imagine what UK suggests about her possibly being strangled long before the 'garrote' was used. If not strangled, maybe hit, pulled, and/or chased by someone.
PositiveLight
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Yeah I agree.
I don't think the pineapple is what caused it. It could have pissed him off possibly or he could have used it to butter her up for things to come upstairs. I think it really started weeks to months prior to the murder. Each thing just piled on to the top of things that made Burke jealous and angry. I am torn between whether he wanted to obliterate her image and body as a signal to his parents he would remove the competition when he needed to. Even in DP he still felt it necessary to make her seem ugly by describing how her eye drooped in the casket. WHY would he say something like that about his murdered sibling? I can possibly see a 9 yr old THINKING that.... but definitely not a 29 year old man SAYING that out loud. My blood ran cold when I heard him say that.
He must still be jealous of her beauty and the love shown to her world wide. Strangers do care about JonBenet. He probably can't stand the thought of that. So what better way to "honor" your sister than to describe her droopy eye that no one needed to know about. Why make that comment? It spoke volumes to me.
This interview wasn't to honor JonBenet. He tried to make her sound ugly in the coffin and described her "flaunting herself". Like she was a stripper or something. Victim blaming. Just makes me mad thinking of it! :notgood:
singularity
i dont think anyone thinks she was bludgeoned over a snack?
just for clarification this bdi anyway thinks the pineapple snack is the start of the chain of events. not the reasoning. it was over sighted in the clean up because of its innocence.
its very relevant as many have stated before because it disproves R's alibi. nothing more nothing less
imho.
i dont think anyone thinks she was bludgeoned over a snack?
just for clarification this bdi anyway thinks the pineapple snack is the start of the chain of events. not the reasoning. it was over sighted in the clean up because of its innocence.
its very relevant as many have stated before because it disproves R's alibi. nothing more nothing less
imho.
singularity
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k-mac. In that post I meant literally bludgeoned over the snack. Not as a motive but during it. Either way, it was meant to convey the quick fashion that many seem to think this happened.
PL-
I agree that the droopy eye and "flaunting it" were the two worst things he said. Its also a huge contrast in his view of her. Mentioning a droopy eye is a way to say she is imperfect and as bat poop crazy as it is to say a six year old girl is 'flaunting it', you don't flaunt imperfection.
He is conflicted in his thoughts of her.
PL-
I agree that the droopy eye and "flaunting it" were the two worst things he said. Its also a huge contrast in his view of her. Mentioning a droopy eye is a way to say she is imperfect and as bat poop crazy as it is to say a six year old girl is 'flaunting it', you don't flaunt imperfection.
He is conflicted in his thoughts of her.
think its only our old friend getting sued who pushes this quick succession theory on the doco.
dont think anybody here supports that at all?
no matter which RDI think we all in support of a long drawn out affair.
that is what makes it so damn hard to fathom , so much time for us to fill the gaps!!! :gaah:
dont think anybody here supports that at all?
no matter which RDI think we all in support of a long drawn out affair.
that is what makes it so damn hard to fathom , so much time for us to fill the gaps!!! :gaah:
Hi Positive Light, Someone had suggested that maybe the knife was used to cut the plastic tie on the new package of Bloomies. There was a picture at one time of an example of the type of packaging the Bloomies came in and it would need to be cut open the way it was sealed. Also, was it on Dr Phil about the 3 bikes? In JR's 6/98 interview he said 2 bikes and then it changed to 3 bikes later on in the interview:
25 LOU SMIT: How were you dressed when you
0086
1 were opening presents?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: The kids, JonBenet had on a
3 little pink, like a long underwear bottoms and
4 top. Burke, I don't remember, probably shirt
5 pajamas. They didn't have time to get dressed.
6 Probably Patsy and I had on pajamas and robe which
7 we wore --
8 LOU SMIT: So real casually dressed?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
10 LOU SMIT: Not like now or?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I'm sure we had on our
12 pajamas and robes.
13 LOU SMIT: Do you remember kind of what
14 the kids got? What she got?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well JonBenet got a bike.
16 I think Burke got a bike too. It seems like we had
17 three bikes there. JonBenet, I think she got a
18 little doll that was one of these look-a-like
19 dolls that was supposed to look like her. I
20 remember her looking at it and saying, this
21 doesn't look like me.
25 LOU SMIT: How were you dressed when you
0086
1 were opening presents?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: The kids, JonBenet had on a
3 little pink, like a long underwear bottoms and
4 top. Burke, I don't remember, probably shirt
5 pajamas. They didn't have time to get dressed.
6 Probably Patsy and I had on pajamas and robe which
7 we wore --
8 LOU SMIT: So real casually dressed?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
10 LOU SMIT: Not like now or?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I'm sure we had on our
12 pajamas and robes.
13 LOU SMIT: Do you remember kind of what
14 the kids got? What she got?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well JonBenet got a bike.
16 I think Burke got a bike too. It seems like we had
17 three bikes there. JonBenet, I think she got a
18 little doll that was one of these look-a-like
19 dolls that was supposed to look like her. I
20 remember her looking at it and saying, this
21 doesn't look like me.
Ambitioned
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I think what started the chain of events is not getting the bike but that's JMO.
Jealousy and behavior problems are a recipe for disaster.